SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Include polygraph in your plans.

Note, that I don't have experience in this, but it looks like good psychological leverage tool.

Why did she keep calling him during our marriage? (He did not answer most of the time and rarely called her back) Was there any physical affair during marriage?

The calls were probably her fishing. She could be happy in her marriage and still fish for what they had. He's not married... why else would she call a single guy that she had a long term affair with and not tell her husband about it?

Was there any physical affair during the marriage? I think you are going to have to use a poly for this one. Google ones around you and check they should list how accurate they are.

When you tell her about about the prenup you could have her read Joseph's Letter - http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/confrontation/joseph.asp in the healing library. Don't give her the link.... cut and past it and change the wording to suit your situation. It basically says that you are willing to forgive but you have to know the truth and what you are going to forgive. I would then tell her that she needs to confess everything before the poly. She how she reacts to having to take a poly. Just because she doesn't start yelling NO at the top of her lungs doesn't mean that they didn't have sex while you were married.... But if she does say she will not take the test it is very telling. I've give her until the day of the poly to tell the truth. Many, many people get parking lot confessions prior to the poly.

Good luck.

[This message edited by Freeme at 4:56 AM, November 9th (Thursday)]

Your plan and your conviction are on point. Seriously... you’re doing great.

Like others said, a poly is a toll you’ll be using to ascertain truths should this timeline match up with the facts. Don’t worry about that now.

WTF,

I wouldn’t assume there were only attempts by her to communicate in recent years. Your wife calling and him not answering could have been a signal for him to reply & communicate using other means like an app. That way if the phone records were discovered it doesn’t look nearly as bad.

The fact that in a moment of trouble she thought of him (your argument) is incredibly revealing I’m sad to say. There’s definitely still a fire for him in her heart.

Stay strong. Expose to her parents. Schedule the poly. Perhaps remorse will yet come - it certainly isn’t here now. Exposure is your best shot at triggering true repentance in her and saving your marriage.

Pulling for you!

During that discussion, she was going to call “someone” to get their advice on “what this meant” … it was him

Red flag. Big red flag right there. You were rocking the marriage boat and her first thought is to contact her pervious lover. Does sound like she was looking for a life raft.

And her threatening divorce....another red flag.

Just be prepared in case she loses her shit. Keep a VAR on you when talking to her. You do not want a false domestic violence charge. I know it sounds extreme but we have seen it happen.

Otherwise you have a solid plan. When do you plan to confront her?

BTW, have you got access to her emails/FB?

Her calls that went unanswered could have been a signal for something? It could be for him to read a shared secret email account? or it could be to signal to him that she is still thinking of him, and for him not to respond because both of them know that they could be monitored?

So... a few thoughts from someone who is 6 years out, fully reconciled, with a wife who had a business "relationship" for 3 years:

I often urge people to try very hard to distance themselves from their personal situation and try to look at their story more objectively. So many times these stories are littered with "My wife wouldn't do that," despite the fact that cheating spouses often do. Please do yourself a huge favor and do not underestimate the type of deceit your wife is capable of.

The reason that I mention that first is because an earlier poster suggested the possibility that your wife's calling him (and him not responding) may simply have been a signal for him to respond in a different method. There are a million ways for people to communicate other than phone these days - apps, FB messages, burner phones. This is why it's so important to recognize that "she wouldn't do THAT" is like burying your head in the sand. Yes she could and it is very possible she did. Please be aware of the chance that she's still in regular contact with him.

As to your question about their having sex after your marriage, I'm sorry to say that it is very likely. Typically, women have sex with men with whom they have developed an emotional bond. As such, it's very unlikely that her emotions simply turned off on their own because of your marriage. The ongoing communication combined with opportunity creates the likely scenario of physical meetings. Maybe it stopped when she stopped working - but that doesn't mean that it ended when you married. The fact that she kept reaching out (even if it isn't ongoing) isn't a good sign for her having stopped a physical affair. Again, try hard to look at the situation objectively - does it sound plausible that she just "turned it off" after she married you?

How do you find out the truth? I'm a firm believer that you will only get truth from her when she's in a very narrow sweet spot - the point between being scared that she's going to lose her marriage but not so scared that she thinks you're going to use it against her by divorcing. A long time poster here often suggests giving your wife a hall pass of sorts - letting her know that she has one chance to come completely clean and, in return, you promise not to make any sudden decisions for, say 60 days. You are, in essence, trying to encourage her to be totally honest without the fear that you're just going to clobber her with the new information. That might be a possibility for you.

Outside of that, I am also a fan of just telling your wife that you're taking her to lunch. Simply drive her to a location that does polygraph testing, park in the lot, turn to her and say, "You have a lie detector test scheduled in 10 minutes. You start telling me the truth, right now, or we go in and I will find out the truth anyway." This gives her a shock, doesn't give her any prep time, and offers her a "back up against the wall" rationale to start talking. Of course, if she refuses you know where she stands. And, regardless of her answers, you still go through with the test.

Lastly, I wanted to offer some perspective. If she has just been reaching out periodically and if the affair really has been over for a few years (both very big "ifs") then you're going to have a long road ahead of you should you decide to work through it. As someone who has been there, done that I can tell you that a marriage can be way better following infidelity. It DOES happen. That being said, it is extremely difficult and the affair, the self doubt, the work involved never ends. The pain of infidelity gets better but it NEVER goes away.

We talk here about a 2-5 year recovery period - to which I declare a complete and total bullshit. Yes, that is how long it can take to start reclaiming yourself and becoming a functional human being. But for anyone to think that everything is better in 2-5 years is simply naive.

You have a giant task before you and I would suggest that you get all your ducks in a row first and really think through your options. Do you believe your wife is REALLY capable of moving forward - of doing the kind of work necessary to heal an enormous hole in your heart? It takes a very special type of woman who can do that and they are few and far between. If you look at her over the dinner table and, somewhere in the back of your head you're thinking, "Well, she's always been pretty selfish" - that's not someone who's a great candidate for true reconciliation.

I hope this has been of help.

[This message edited by LifeisCrazy at 9:23 AM, November 10th (Friday)]

I just read through DoneGone and SpaceGhost threads. Wow. What they did was amazing but what struck me is that passion all of you have for guiding others that are navigating this nightmare and helping them sort through emotions, make good decisions and get to the other side. Thank you for the time you spend to share your collective wisdom. It is so helpful to hear from those of you that have “been there.”

To answer some of your questions:

- I have all of WW passwords for all accounts that I know of. They are connected on Linkedin but not Facebook. I see no sign of communication since 2012 other than him messaging her on Linkedin with no response from her a few years ago. She never had a second phone or used apps.

- They had a sexual relationship during our engagement but I have no way to know, prove or disprove beyond that. If it did happen it was in 2010 – 2011. A poly will bring out the truth.

- He is no longer married but is engaged to someone new … that looks just like my wife. (Very attractive)

- My wife does not see or think of me as inferior to this guy. (He is solid but its not even close) I have him beat in every category and she knows it. If I for one second thought she thought otherwise, we would be done.

- I have communicated and she has readily agreed that any contact with him or inappropriate contact with any man … we are done.

I was always in the camp that any infidelity would be total deal-breaker. She knew that. What is throwing me off on that line of thinking is that this was prior to marriage. If I can get a confession or proof that it occurred during marriage, I’m not sure R will be possible. If the story is as she currently tells it, I can probably find a way to get over it.

The hardest part here is the 3 kids. They are my world. I coach their teams, take them to school and am involved in every aspect of their lives. As my wife is a stay at home mom and I work a lot, she would get custody in a D. This would be devastating and I could not live with seeing them raised by another man or seeing them every other weekend. Hence the need for a signed post nup/separation agreement.

The other difficult part of this is … this has been the most painful, agonizing thing I have ever endured. Knowing that another man was with my fiancé. Knowing that she at least tried to maintain a friendship/relationship with him years later even though he was 1000 miles away. I can’t wrap my head around it. It shows a staggering level of disrespect and lack of remorse. It also shows that she may have had feelings for him or at least thought about him and “what might have been.” Brutal stuff.

Despite that, this last six months has brought us together and we are closer than at any point in our 17 year history. I wonder how much of that is that she is on her best behavior and fearful of what I might find out or where this is going. Who knows.

Here is the plan: In the next few weeks we’ll see a trusted counselor. I will tell her that I know that she has not revealed everything and have proof … but not say what I know. I’ll give her 7 days to write a full confession. After that, we do a poly. (Should I let her know the poly is coming or make it a surprise?) Regardless of the outcome I will demand a postnup/separation agreement that is fair and protects me with the kids and financially. If she signs it and is agreeable we move forward with R and make it work. If not, I file for legal separation or D.

I love her with all my heart and want to stay married. I truly hope that she has the integrity to tell me the truth … the wisdom to trust me with my intentions … and the character to put me and the kids above secrets and lies. I’d say its 50/50 at this point. Being patient and letting this process play out is extremely gut wrenching and mentally horrific.

I’m open to all of your thoughts, ideas and suggestions so please point me in the right direction if I’m missing something.

There is absolutely no reason for someone to keep in touch with their AP for years and if they are truly remorseful. In fact, a person who is committed in a relationship will not bother keeping in contact with their ex, as it is a potential point of conflict.

She called him for advice on 'what this means' (what year was this?). Why him? Why not her parents or some other confidant?

She also called him twice in 2016. Whatever for? Did she tell you?

The missing phone records for 2013-2015 might give you a better idea of the contact between the two. Were the records lost?

I’ll give her 7 days to write a full confession. After that, we do a poly. (Should I let her know the poly is coming or make it a surprise?)

Generalization here, but women like surprises, so don't spoil it for her..... really, don't.

If you tell her about the poly first, then she can prepare herself for it, and you may not get the all important parking lot confession.

A Timeline should not be used as a surefire commitment to R. A 100% truthful timeline is a ticket to the R pathway.

Agree......no warning on the poly. Do not give her a chance to catch her breath. You must maintain control by keeping her on her heels.

If she balks or backs out of the poly (assuming she agrees write out a timeline) then you know she lied/omitted things.

This has got to be a mental hell for you. Why must you wait a few weeks? Could the counselor see you this week?

You simply cannot let her know about the poly ahead of time. You know her the best - will she do it without the "teeth" of divorce papers behind it. Or perhaps you're the type who will decide that her not wanting to take a poly as an admission of guilt and be prepared to move on.

With that said, you wouldn't be here if R wasn't atleast somewhat on your mind. You absolutely cannot say "if you fail the poly then I will divorce you". It doesn't get her an incentive for telling the truth.

You need to say "If you give me the absolute truth right this instant then I can commit to you that I will not make any decisions for 60 days after the poly. If you do say that this timeline is 100% the truth and I find out differently then it is immediately and unconditional dissolution of the marriage. I have retained legal counsel and am prepared to move on this quickly for both of our sake if this is the case"

Informing her of the poly before hand will allow her to formulate excuses and rebuttals to any lies told during the exam.

The post-nup should work to your favor, and must be able to withstand legal challenge. Airtight.

I agree with the others: Why would she want to stay in contact with her former lover if she's truly remorseful? If she hasn't screwed him of late, she knows there's a possibility that she CAN screw him again--as long as contact remain, even if infrequent.

And, speaking of her aversion to humuliation, demand that she submit to std testing. She needs to experience a host of consequences.

[This message edited by MidnightRun at 10:31 PM, November 14th (Tuesday)]

I disagree with the others on the poly. The idea isn't to trick her into lying to you, it's to get the truth. From what I've seen, having advanced knowledge of the poly is no advantage. A lie is a lie and you can't prepare for a yes or no question. Be upfront and honest with her and expect the same. That will help you with your decision.

Thank you for your input and responses … very helpful and much appreciated.

We had a long conversation today and WW answered a LOT of questions but maintained the same story. It is so brutal to sit there, tell her that the truth is essential to reconciliation and salvaging our family … and still get lies about their relationship during our marriage. She insists that she called him maybe 10 times or less during our marriage for work/business related purposes. I have proof of 150 calls/texts in a 3 year period. She has no idea that I know the truth. I honestly don’t think there was a sexual relationship during our marriage (he was 1000 miles away) but the fact that she will not come clean about their level of communication makes it possible. Damn it … I love her so much … if she would just tell me, I would probably forgive her. Lying … I can no longer tolerate.

As stated on my last post, it is almost time for my D-day. I need to have a lawyer draft a Separation Agreement/Post-Nup. If she confesses and signs it, I will make it work and try for R .. and we will probably make it. We love each other. If she will not confess or sign the agreement, I will file for legal separation or D.

I need advice on a few things:

- When I tell her that I know that there is more to the story and need the full truth, should I involve a counselor, family member or pastor? This is likely to cause a volatile situation and I think it might be better if there was another trusted person involved. Thoughts?

- At this point, no matter what, I will not stay this marriage without a prenup/separation agreement to protect myself. I love her and have every indication that she loves me and wants to make this work, but I simply cannot and will leave myself open to divorce-rape down the road. If it is going to happen, I would prefer to take the hit now than later. Please advise on if you have any experience with post nuptial agreements/separation agreements and what you would include. Is there a thread on this?

Looking at doing this in the next few weeks. Thank you for any input. This whole thing is gut wrenching … everything I thought I knew is gone and replaced by questions and uncertainty.

"... should I involve a counselor, family member or pastor? Thoughts?"

Involve someone who you trust but also who she will be most likely to trust. The more comfortable she is with the third person, the more open she'll be. It would probably be someone who is more neutral in her view. Family members tend to be placed on sides in a person's mind.

"At this point, no matter what, I will not stay this marriage without a prenup/separation agreement to protect myself. ... I simply cannot and will leave myself open to divorce-rape down the road. I would prefer to take the hit now than later."

A prenup is a good move and I agree that you need to require it in order to move forward. If she's not willing to sign then she's not serious about the damage she's done. I also wholeheartedly agree with the poly idea. The earlier you tell her, the more dread it builds up in her if she's lying. It can help force the truth out of her especially if you base the possibility of R on her truthfulness. Make sure you have the date of the poly already scheduled when you tell her. And like the prenup, there's no moving forward if she won't submit to it.

When confronting your wife you hoped she would be totally honest with you and confess everything. Sadly, most posters here are lied to, or trickletruthed, for a period of time and this is where a great deal of the damage to the marriage is done.

Cheaters, when caught, are desperate to minimize the affair and contain the damage in hopes that their spouse will reconcile, rather than divorce them. Unfortunately, it's a natural reaction and they don't expect to be caught lying and, more importantly, they don't consider the affect of the lies on their relationship.

By playing the truth game with your wife you are prolonging the trickletruth stage and gaining nothing in return. If you want the truth, expose her lies. You must be aware that there is more that you don't know and that is the path to finding out.

You know she is lying! you have to be strong and Do Not show weakness. It is common to be TT but you know that she is hiding things, unlike many posters you already know it. If you give an ultimatum you have to follow thru no matter what, or you will be walked all over.

In order to save a marriage you have to be willing to end it, do not second guess, and show her that the mind games are over. Actions speak louder than words, if she want R, she has to work for it not you.

I know you want her to give you the honesty required to save this. It sucks and I'm sorry.

Another thing:

I honestly don’t think there was a sexual relationship during our marriage (he was 1000 miles away) but the fact that she will not come clean about their level of communication makes it possible.

My ex had an old boyfriend she never really got over. Years after marriage she would meet up with him during work trips. Lots of sex just infrequent. I thought the same as you did...

How do you plan to set up the signing of the prenup agreement thing? What if she just says that you know everything and why should she sign?

Anyway if that approach doesn't pan out, how do you think she will react if you just simply state that "I know you are not being truthful with me. I feel we cannot continue with out even the basic truth out between us." and then calmly place the separation agreement or copy of the divorce filing she will be served with in front of her, and walk away. Then if she wants to save it she will be coming to you, and you can move with the prenup, and later the polygraph.

Just a thought.

[This message edited by antlered at 6:15 PM, November 16th (Thursday)]

WTFOVER - I have a similar story in the sense that I found out years after the A supposedly ended. It's hard for me to sort through past records to verify my WW's story because it was 5-8 years ago.

How did you pull phone records from that long ago?

I tried but was rebuffed by the carriers. We obviously have new phones and didn't keep the old ones, we've also switched carriers a couple of times. What I wouldn't give to be able to access that info for more ammo...

If you love her then don't play games with her. She is in survival mode when she tells you about the number of calls. She sees her life going down the drain if she tells you the truth. Just put it out there. Ask her again how many times she has called him. If she again says about 10 times then ask her why the phone bills show she has called at least 150 times. This will take away her reason to be in survival mode. Tell her no more lies. Lies lead to divorce and truth may lead to working on the marriage. There are very, very few people who, when backed into a corner and about to see their life wreaked, won't go into survival mode and do whatever they can to save what they have. As a BH, ask yourself what would you do if you were in her shoes and facing hard retaliation if the truth came out. I know most BS will say, "I would tell the truth." But would you really? Stop baiting her and confront. You want to save this marriage then don't put in pit falls that it can fall through. I do wish you well.