SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Silverlinings-

It seems to me that you are taking this thread fairly personally. Whether thats the case or not, you are obviously very passionate about your stance.

From an outsiders perspective it appears that your situation is fairly unique and the way it played out was pretty lucky. Replicating those circumstances would be difficult I would think. For instance, what if your wife had divorced you because you went out on your own, she would be within het rights to, possibly dragging your name through the mud in the process, you still would have lost the kids part time, down graded your living circumstances etc. What if one of your kids had found out you were dating? Without the context of their mums affair that would be pretty damaging to your relationship and even if you decided to tell them then about your ww affair the kid would then be fairly confused and likely upset at what was happening to their family. What if one of the women you had dated was a bunny boiler? Turned up to the house when you decided to work on things with the wife? Made it so she met y our kids 'accidently', what if she gave you an std?

See all the crazy f*cked up shit that can happen in an A can happen in a revenge A. I know in your case you were honest and up front, but it doesn't mitigate all the risks. For some reason you seemed to need to find your self worth in a vagina! You have kids, is that where you want them to find theirs? That they are only worthy if someone will have sex with them? And while you were out there getting your self worth back so that you could 'potentially' R with their mother, you put their world at risk further by inviting others into yours. Didn't their mother do enough of that? There is an inherent selfishness in any type of A, especially when you have children because you don't just cheat on your partner, you cheat on your children. Theu don't get any justice and they learn what is normal through their parents.

I don't mean any disrespect silverlinings and I am not trying to judge you, I am not religious and who gives a giant f*ck about the high road. It looks like your circumstances are fairly rare and your outcome even rarer. It worked out for your family and I am glad that it has done so, but replicating it for others I would guess is fairly rare.

smilethrupain I totally get you. Obviously, someone that has been through trauma is more likely to be empathized IMO.

I think what's important to highlight is that with RA, the offender has no intent to hurt any innocent by-standers. The intent is to feel better about oneself aside from all that holy grail promises to God bs. I also agree that my vow is with my wife. In my view, God would not give us the pleasure of sex and intimacy and relationships and the corner us to believe that it has to be with one person alone. The monogamy has nothing to do with religion and more to do with society as a whole. I've read the book "Conversations with God" and have not finished it yet but there is a lot of wisdom about God and our understanding of it or better yet what's shoved down our throats by religious leaders. The vow is purely social and personal and has nothing to do with God almighty.

Also there is a lot in that book about your gut feel. And that that's how God talks to you. Many of us have had a bad gut feel when our WW/WH have done something wrong but our mind has forced us to ignore it which was a big mistake. The reason many animals do amazing things is because they follow their gut feel since they don't have much intelligence per se.

SisterMilkshake --

What stands out to me is the part I bolded.

For some reason, I can't see any text in bold. Would you mind sharing which part stood out to you so I can contextualize your comments? I want to reply with thought, so I'll wait until after your clarification. Thanks!

@Rasputina, this was the part I bolded from the quote

(It does require immediate notification of any breakage, and there are consequences laid out for failing to do so.)

eta: You're welcome!

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 5:45 PM, November 21st (Tuesday)]

"u came on here like a bulldozer with a very black & white opinion that wreaked of superiority. People are in enough pain here, don't you think?"

Absolutely. So don't compound it by having a RA and then having to deal with additional fallout. My thread was absolutely relevant to this site and many long timers agree with me.

Jeez where's TG when you need her. shevwould wax on and on about how her RA damaged her more than her WS's affair. that would be me.

Maybe every situation is different. Maybe healing for men and women are different. Maybe people’s lives, situations and partners affairs are different. I stand behind silver, and everything he said makes sense. It has nothing to do with morals, finding self worth in vaginas, the high road etc etc. it has to do with establishing our stand in the world again. It has to do with getting knocked down and not refusing to stay knocked down in self pity. It may have to do with respect, it may have to do deserving Better. But sometimes, and this is a fact, situations like silvers and mine aren’t the worst case. Sometimes, they are the best. One can act with integrity even they don’t follow the religious technicalities to a T. Sure, often it can make things worse if done for the wrong reasons. But every situation is different. Silvers wife learned to respect him after she realized he wasn’t a spineless pushover who let her disrespect him. She learned he has the ability to be whatever he wants in this world, and she learned he won’t tolerate her shit. He re established control of his own life, and she learned he could do better than her. He didn’t want to blow up his kids life with a divorce. I respect that. I didn’t have kids at the time, but if i did I’d do anything for them including preventing a divorce for all the reasons he stated. So sure, maintain “integrity” and lose half your assets, kids schools, good home, stability to divorce before knowing if you need to meet other people. Or, with all intentions transparent and your back against the wall, decide to stay M, and of the WS can’t tolerate you doing what she did, she’s not worth attempting to R with anyway. It’s not about inflicting pain, it’s about finding what’s best for you after the fact. And as for risks... well with transparency those are minimal. With contraceptives stds are too. Idk, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

I think what's important to highlight is that with RA, the offender has no intent to hurt any innocent by-standers. The intent is to feel better about oneself

I don't even know what to say about this. Do you think it's also important to note that NEARLY EVERY AFFAIR begins with the intention to make someone feel better about themselves???? I had zero intent to hurt my husband. My actions hurt him, but that was not my intent. Affairs are wrong period. Everyone can justify to the moon and back. My husband was emotionally abusive. He withheld all physical and emotional intimacy to "teach me a lesson." He told me this way later. At the time I was just confused and miserable and didn't know why things were bad between us. I fell into a deep depression and became suicidal. I was undiagnosed bipolar. Both my Dr and therapist agree that the emotional abuse likely triggered the depression. In turn, the depression triggered the worst manic episode I've ever had. Cheating is very common in mania. It was during this time I cheated. The mania turned back into deep depression. Once that lifted, about 6 months after the affair ended, I confessed.

So I guess I can blame my husband. I hadn't cheated before the mania and it's likely he caused it by his treatment of me. Except I don't blame him. Because at the end of the day, I am responsible for what I do, regardless of what anyone else does. But by your logic, he broke his vows by definitely not loving or cherishing me and I was free to do as I pleased.

Cheating is wrong. Even if you have (what you consider) a really good reason. But it isn't the cheating that bothers me about the RA argument. What bothers me is the attitude that you had some right to do it. In that case, the person is just another remorseless WS.

[This message edited by VirginiaRegret at 8:47 PM, November 21st (Tuesday)]

Nice, you're awesome and a great person! (I do think that based on what I've seen in your posts, but I also say it because we need to balance the scales by declaring the like-minded to be great people).

I think the most important takeaway from your post is, and this seems to be incomprehensible to some, everyone and every situation is different. We can all attack each other for having a different opinion, being religious or not, etc., or we can accept that everyone is unique. I haven't seen one of "us" tell one of "them" that they have no morals for their stance. In fact, I believe that their stance requires a unique sense of strength and selflessness. But they're not me and I'm not them. Again, if having a different perspective on the issue of what's called an "RA" is forbidden, then someone please advise.

Isn't there also a selection bias when stating that our position is so rare on SI, given that as soon as one ponders an RA in JFO, they're told that's no better than being an original WS, and then someone is outrighted banned from helping a new BS in JFO if they have an "RA"?

And then, when abiding by the rules and only posting in Wayward Side and not JFO, you're attacked and hence less likely to tell others what you think? Is there any wonder why it seems as though there's a universal stance? BS'es in JFO who are considering their options are also likely to say "forget this place" it they're invalidated for having contrary feelings to those privileged few who are allowed to "help" them.

I think we can all agree to disagree. Some people are very black and white that an affair is an affair. Others see it as a grey area since the unilaterally opening of the marriage by the original wayward set it all in motion.

Some people value the moral high ground and some value a sense of balance. I also think genders play a role in your perspective on RAs. I absolutely think that the black and white view of an affair is an affair are being very myopic. Not every situation is like theirs and not everyone's values are the same.

Thanks, SisterMillkshake.

What stands out to me is the part I bolded. You see, that is where the fly is in the ointment. The thing with people breaking their vows is they don't like to disclose that they did so. They don't want to pay the consequences. What makes you think that your husband would disclose to you that he broke one of the vows? -- SisterMilkshake

(It does require immediate notification of any breakage, and there are consequences laid out for failing to do so.) -- Rasputina

Why would that be a fly in the ointment?

I think we have a difference of opinion here that comes down to the initial point I made about the validity of different opinions/expectations/boundaries/perspectives with respect to relationship agreements. From a personal perspective, I didn't form my relationship agreement with the goal of making it impenetrable and/or unbreakable. I'm a bit surprised that other posters read it as such, because we never thought about it in those terms. Instead, we tried to think of what would be realistic, reasonable, and true for us. Basically, what would meet both of our needs in an anticipated long term relationship while encouraging the best possible behavior in each of us should things go off the rails.

The majority of consequences established for breaking our agreement were formed with the idea of protecting the BS and giving that person a safe space while they considered their options instead of punishing the WS as a way to force compliance with abandoned vows; most of the punitive consequences arise as a consequence of that and in support of good conduct. So, what you see as a problem is not a problem for us because that's not our expectation of our agreement.

Does that make sense? I'm happy to continue discussing this, if you are interested; but in return, I would like to hear about your relationship agreement and structure so I can a better idea of your perspective.

Now, I know you are saying that because of the way you structured your vows that you wouldn't be able to have a revenge affair. But, really, c'mon. That is more of a semantics thing.

No, that's a very real relationship dissolution thing. We have a written understanding about it. When you refer to it as a "semantics thing" you perhaps unintentionally reduce it to a collection of words to which you and I might assign different meanings. This is a structural thing that organizes our relationship.

if your sole purpose for having sex with someone else was to hurt your spouse it would still be a revenge affair/sex. If you had sex for any other reason than I would suggest it was an unhealthy coping mechanism at the very least.

I think we might have some fundamental differences in outlook going on here: it seems like you might be more comfortable defining a clear boundary that applies to all relationships, whereas I am comfortable acknowledging that this topic is something of a murky zone due to those vow/boundary/agreement differences between relationships. I'm not a very black and white thinker in general, so I tend to acknowledge

shades of gray and not feel pressure to sort them into bipolar categorizations. I'm okay with everyone being able to define those shades and boundaries for their own relationships.

On a separate but related note, I suspect we might have some differences of opinion on topics like healthy expressions of sexuality as well. Also totally okay.

Furthermore, most on this site have been in traditional marriages with the traditional vows and didn't/don't have the kind of marital agreement that you do. So even if a BS feels the way you do, they didn't make that kind of agreement with their WS on their wedding day.

Unless you can point me to a place on this site where there are member statistics supporting this assertion, that's an assumption being stated as fact. I've come across more than a few posters with relationship structures that you might consider nontraditional, and more than a few posters have responded to this thread to state their disagreement with that kind of characterization.

I'm not sure what is to be gained from trying to lump all these different people and different relationships together under the umbrella of sameness, and also wonder at the use of the term "traditional" because it presumes that everyone is coming from the same cultural background with the same marital traditions and beliefs. What I think of as traditional marriage might in fact be very different than what you think. But, again, as stated in the SI Guidelines:

...people of all types, beliefs, and cultures populate these forums.

Maybe we can agree to acknowledge these relationship differences exist, and do not need to be in our image as we do not inhabit them. Does that sound reasonable?

Randy:

Btw, I never took the opportunity to thank you for your support when I was new here. I was in a dark place and you commented on one of my threads about your experience and it meant / means a lot.

SL

Agreeing that we will never come to a consensus on this. Its black and white to me

Sewardak:

I know that's how you feel and I respect your position.

As I think I stated above, despite our having much different views on this issue, I do see a unique kind of strength and personal sacrifice in your stance.

You've nailed down the nature of the disagreement here, in that some see it as a black-and-white thing, others believe context and the specifics of the situation make a great deal of difference.

People clearly get their backs up about this issue, but I have to say that I find the discussion to be very interesting and thought-provoking. I think I've stated more than once that some of the "black-and-white" thinkers here have made some points that I've adopted into my thinking.

Glad I could help, SL. I enjoy reading your perspective as well.

I think we all sort of make our own way after an affair. I know I'd do things differently if I had to do it over again, but at the time when you are in that dark place, the world you know has been turned upside down and you are just kind of surviving with a hole in your chest and a shattered ego. I respect those people that chose to be faithful. But for some, there was nothing to be faithful to since I was married to my partner, not marriage as an idea. I would have never stepped out before, but after all that, it honestly didn't matter very much.

I'm rambling I guess.

@Rasputina, it would be great to continue our discourse but I don't want to t/j this thread any further with our discussion. It is interesting and there are many points you bring up that I would like to address. (i.e. differences of opinion on topics like healthy expressions of sexuality as well. you got that from my response to you? You may be surprised...or not.)

Sister Milkshake --

@Rasputina, it would be great to continue our discourse but I don't want to t/j this thread any further with our discussion. It is interesting and there are many points you bring up that I would like to address. (i.e. differences of opinion on topics like healthy expressions of sexuality as well. you got that from my response to you? You may be surprised...or not.)

I agree. Thanks for sharing thoughts with me!

sewardak - That's not the first time you've brought up your length of time on this forum or majority/ old timers opinions, etc. That's off putting too. Your opinion, old timer's opinions and the majority's opinions have no more weight than mine or anyone else's. That type of thinking is what's a turn off in the general mob mentality of forums across the internet. I may be new to this forum, but I am a member of a handful and even a a mod/ admin of a couple large (less depressing) forums. I'm very well versed in the dynamics of busy forums. Please don't throw old timer's opinions in response to my post and opinion as if that somehow weighs more against this topic. It simply has no context here. This is a discussion that you brought up and your opinion carried some hefty allegations. You are being disagreed with, that's it. I don't care who registered here first or who has a colored screen name. We are all navigating our own experience in this delicate situation. The only difference is that I'm not trying to shame you for how you feel, only defending the attack against the way I feel.

And I'm a little disappointed that you didn't respond to my analogy again. I can only guess it's because you know in your heart you would cut the psychologically wounded war vet some some slack for his inappropriate behavior over the guy who was just having a bad day like the rest of us.

Anther thought. I've also seen it mentioned here several times that if it's never, never, never ok for the WS, than it can't be justified for a BS either. My response to that is affairs are never ok (as stated as nauseam), but my personal opinion is not all affairs are created equally. They hurt the same. They do the same amount of destruction. But I'd have a slightly easier time understanding why my husband could make such awful hurtful decisions, if, let's say, we had recently lost a child. Or if I had been abusive to him every day saying he was a POS. Basically anything actually traumatizing to one's psyche vs.. what my husband said about me. (I didn't do laundry fast enough and I didn't like going out as often). So nothing is created in a vacuum and my opinion is not black & white. I respect your decision to feel that way, but i don't and I don't want to be told -in so many words- that i'm morally inferior or shouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror.

Well I'm busy getting my house ready for hosting thanksgiving and can't reply to Every question. I'll just say I don't care if I'm off putting. Someone on this thread said I'm a very good person so maybe that burns you.

We often refer to old timers on here and how they've seen it all and maybe their posts should taken into a little more consideration. I know i do that. I'll throw that in a response any time I damn well please.

I never read your analogy thing.

[This message edited by sewardak at 3:39 PM, November 22nd (Wednesday)]