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sewardak - Saying this in a very gentle and respect manner, but I took the whole basis of your thread to be about not understanding how people process this/feel about this differently than you do. What I'm hearing you say is ALL RAs are wrong. Some have even gone on to say - and I believe you may have been one, would need to look back, doesn't matter at this point - that RAs are worse than the primary affair.

That all seems pretty moral high ground to me. I'm certainly not shaking a finger at you or anyone. Moral high ground was a very comfortable road for me for a period of time so I've been there...wore out my boots as I paced it, all the while trying to reconcile the conflicting concept of (in)justice that still lingered. Getting revenge, "holding your integrity" - those can all be the same coin/different sides. That's all I'm saying. This is why I spoke to there being a specific shift in my perspective - where it was less about what was right or wrong as a concept (and what applies to the masses) and more about what was right or wrong FOR ME. When it became about what was right for me, then I didn't need to apply it to the masses.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 1:21 PM, November 19th (Sunday)]

Truth you're asking us to consider RA as a possibility to help some BS's heal.

Could you not use your justifications for a RA the same way as the original affair? The WS was in some sort of pain or crisis where they gave them self the green light to have an affair. Should we not judge how they handled dealing with that pain either?

Why is it different? You said I don't understand why some BS don't do recovery like I did. (Or something to that effect). The minute they start to justify an affair yeah you bet I judge. that's a pretty big leap from not doing it my way to being accepting of a RA.

Sewardak- I just wanted to say that I completely agree with you. All affairs are wrong. You can either use someone else's actions to justify your own or you can't. It's like how my daughter will get in trouble for something and her first excuse is, he made me do it. I have to correct her, he didn't MAKE you do it. What he did made you want to do it, but you made the choice.

I do wonder if everyone has the same definition of revenge affair. My husband cheated a year and a half after I confessed what I did. Neither of us call it a revenge affair but some here might. But it wasn't for revenge. He wasn't trying to hurt me, he was trying to ease his own pain. He also didn't tell me, I found out. To me, revenge would be him walking in and saying, I cheated on you, hope it hurts. I don't know if we would've survived that but who knows.

I don't like it when people talk about degrees of hurt and who hurt who more. The reality is that the worst pain is the pain you're experiencing. My life imploded when he cheated on me. And I know because we've talked about it that he regrets it and wish he hadn't done it. But that he doesn't have the same degree of shame and self loathing that I did. And that's fine. It's not a competition. I don't think what he did was worse because he knew the pain. But it also wasn't okay. I'm thankful that he knows and expresses that just as I know and express that what I did was wrong. If he didn't, he'd just be another remorseless WS who wouldn't have been a good candidate for reconciliation. As it stands, we are in such a good place because we worked hard to get here.

If something is wrong, it's wrong. Someone else doing it doesn't all of a sudden make it right. If my husband lies to me, it doesn't mean that lying is no longer wrong for me and I have free license to lie all I want. Lying is still wrong. Having someone cheat on you doesn't make it okay to cheat. It's still wrong. You deciding to cheat just makes you a cheater too.

Good points Virginia. agree on the some RA aren't really RA.

My life imploded when he cheated on me. And I know because we've talked about it that he regrets it and wish he hadn't done it. But that he doesn't have the

Can I ask, did you fully understand his pain before he cheated on you? I ask because near dday when I sometimes considered that maybe he needed me to cheat on him to understand how completely devastated I was, because I didn't believe he understood. I think a lot of BS' feel this way.

I guess just as there are WS’s who aren’t remotely remorseful, we’ll find MH’s who aren’t remorseful either.

The difference I think, is that the WS’s who have no remorse don’t post here, or if they do - they either begin finding some remorse or they leave. That’s the rub here I think...the posts that Sewardak is talking about - there’s no evident remorse...in fact, the RA is central to the survival of the marriage.

Imagine a WS coming here and saying “My wife gave my dog away and lied saying he ran away. I loved that dog! So I had sex with my coworker. My wife finally understands how hurt I am about the dog and I’m sure she won’t pull that again. My affair was a positive thing in my marriage.” Would we say - “yeah, your wife deserved it. She betrayed you and lied to you so you had every right to teach her a lesson.” I don’t think so. We’d recognize the horrible actions of the BW but outline better ways of handling it. No matter what - the WS still lost his dog. Cheating didnt make him whole....just as having an RA doesn’t undo the original affair.

This is an issue that has been much debated and will likely never be resolved.

However

Something to think about. Using the same logic, the minute your spouse doesn't love, cherish and honor you well there you go, vows broken. You don't have to be faithful then.....

Are people who have RAs willing to risk losing the M? After all, you have no way of knowing how something will feel or be handled until it is done.

Since you can't predict the future, is the RA worth losing your M? Just curious.

I'm 2 years from my last Dday, working on reconciliation with a very messed up but hardworking, persistent WH. I feel everything other BSs do. Many times I have craved the feeling of being cherished, pursued, and admired by another man - one who hasn't hurt me yet, and is completely enthralled with me.

I have to let that go, and it has nothing to do with WH. WH deserves to be with a literal hooker. I traded the thrill of new relationships for building a family, a future, and a legacy. WH did both, without telling me. In the way we understand justice, I have quite a few hall passes.

But this is what stops me: to have an A, I need an AP. Who would that be?

1) OM who knows I am married and doesn't care that I am. In other words, a POSOM. I already have a (former) POS at home and don't want another one ever ever ever ever ever again.

2) OM is a one-night stand who doesn't even know my real name, even less whether I'm married or not. That's not the rush of new attraction and that feeling of dying to know every single thing about a person...it's just a f***. I didn't do that when I was single. I can have better sex by myself, LOL. I want way more than that. So nah.

3) OM doesn't know I'm married, is a great guy, thinks I'm available and I deceive him. Nope nope nope. Not going to involve an unknowing person and hurt them because I'm hurt. The AP in my case had been a BS years back and participated knowingly in the hurting innocents (me and my sons). It's definitely not the change I want to see in the world, so I won't be that.

None of these sound "healing" to me. When other BSs say RA helped them, I am glad to hear it. I'm glad their pain was helped by something. But I know RA would not help me.

If one has a RA - is the AP married or single? Is it ok to screw a married person and possibly destroy innocent ives just because you've been cheated on? How many innocent lives have to be devastated and people used before everything is "equal". The ow used that very excuse - she had been cheated on - she was going to be happy and she didn't care who got hurt. So now do I get to have a RA to make myself happy and let the next woman deal with the shit storm of an A? If the AP is single - are they aware that they are just some pawn in this "I need to feel better no matter what" game. Of course, the BS needs to take care of themselves - but not at the expense of the feelings of others. It's a cliche - but Two wrongs don't make a right.

One thing needs to be made clear is that a MH is a Wayward Spouse. Maybe some feel that using this term, MadHatter, makes them less culpable than being a WS. After all, when I think of a Mad Hatter, I immediately think of "Alice in Wonderland" and the mad tea party. Kind of fun party time atmosphere. To me, that minimizes what a MH aka WS does.

I definitely feel that some WS's participate in more reprehensible behaviour than other WS. For instance, Mary Kay LeTouraneau. Having an affair with a 12 year old student. Yeah, I am going to be judgey here and say what LeTouraneau did was worse than what my FWH did. I don't feel that determines the level of pain that a BS feels. I agree that we can not measure any one else's pain and that the pain we feel is the worse pain. I wasn't talking about what hurts a BS more, though.

To my more specific point that I feel that some BS's who, in turn, become MH/WS participate in even worse behaviour than the original WS. The BS now has in their hands and minds knowledge that we most likely didn't before. About what it feels like to be betrayed at such a deeply intimate level. It is like how some murders are deemed to have "malice aforethought" making them worse than a different act of murder. (truthsetmefree gave a good example). That, in my opinion, is what makes some BS's turned MH/WS actions even more egregious than the original WS. The malice aforethought. I didn't say this was the case in all circumstances.

@VirginiaRegret, I am wondering why you feel that if your MH/WH did this

him walking in and saying, I cheated on you, hope it hurts. I don't know if we would've survived that but who knows.

that you don't know if your marriage would survive this? I do believe you when you say that wasn't your WH's intent and that it is the truth. Most WS's don't have affairs to intentionally hurt their BS's. That is one of the many reasons why they hide them.

eta: to fix word, add missing sentence

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 5:58 PM, November 19th (Sunday)]

I am pretty sure this debate will never come to a consensus..but I’ll leave this as my parting thought. I probably realized way too late that what she did to me was an unforgivable for me. Maybe out of technicality i should have filed for D right away. Then technicallly what i did would not be cheating. But it’s just that, technicality. In the aftermath of the destruction of our marriage by her, and the humiliation and anger I felt, i told her exactly how I felt and what stance i had. I told her that because of what she did (murder the marriage), that we no longer owed each other anything. That while i has loved her and cherished her, the marriage license now was just printing of words on paper, and nothing more. I never set out to hurt her deliberately by having what you call an RA, iwas starting fresh. What i told her is that just like anyone else, she had a chance to prove to me why she would be worth having a relationship with, except the odds weren’t in her favor because anyone new i met hadn’t disrespected me and broken trust yet. She understood. She may not have liked it, but i told her she was free to live her own life too. I held her to no higher standard than i held myself at that point. For MY personal healing, going out and experiencing the world after she destroyed our marriage was unbelievably useful in getting over the trauma. The same thing your parent tells you when you are dumped by your first gf/bf as a kid. There are plenty of fish in the sea, and you deserve to be happy. Now sure, many of you will say, “you threw away your dignity, you are as bad as her or worse, you no longer upheld morals etc etc”. I get it. I respect your views even if i don’t believe in them. I am not religious, and im sure that has a part to play on people’s opinion of this matter. But here’s the thing. I see a lot of people who are still hurting because they took the “high road” and reconciled, looked down on meeting new people, and took their cheating spouse back. I’m not saying that’s everyone, but i see it a lot. And im also not putting people who successfully R with no resent and anger down. In fact I think they are incredibly strong, and i admire them. Im saying that based on MY experience, I could never be one of them. My personality, and character probably could never tolerate living with the injustice. And why I am here to to tell other people who might be like me, that it’s OK. You can find happiness whether you R or D. I think there is a divide here, where some almost demonize anyone who doesn’t try to R. I don’t think that makes sense either. No one should feel forced to make a decision either way, it has to come frome the heart, not from what others (their religion?) tell them to do. You can call me cheater until your blue in the face, and i get it...point taken... but i know myself best. Some MH are just people who cannot tolerate infidelity, and sought to move on with their lives before the marriage was officiallly terminated per the law. It boils down to a technicality..as i stated before there is no rationale in calling me a Wayward mentality, poor boundaries, at risk partner, in need of self reflection. You know why? Because in every relationship I’ve ever had, with the exception of my marriage and being cheated on, i have never cheated. And to my knowledge it’s the only time I’ve ever been cheated on. I know what i am, and what i am not. I may be decisive, but im not confused. I hope than anyone who has been betrayed can find ultimate true happiness, i just won’t judge you for how you get there, so long as your not deliberately hurtful to your CS.

DebraVation hit it on the head "Honestly, you do that to someone's psyche and then expect them to behave rationally? And to higher standards than you do yourself?

I will agree that it isn't right, but I do think it's more understandable.And I think the marriage vows are dead at that point."

So has DevastedDee.

I haven't RA'd, but damnit...have thought a LOT about it, I have dissected the shit out of it. Sometimes I detest the idea, sometimes I think I need it to feel like his equal again. Other times??? I don't think about it either way...not interested in anything, having a moral high horse nor evening the score.

Don't judge the betrayed. Don't get me wrong, they have to be be willing to be responsible for their choices during healing.

Doesn't mean the BS can just walk through life doing whatever the hell they want, no matter the destruction to others....oh wait. I just described the WS'. Creepy huh?

I am wondering why you feel that if your MH/WH did this

him walking in and saying, I cheated on you, hope it hurts. I don't know if we would've survived that but who knows.

that you don't know if your marriage would survive this?

I agree with you that it is probably not most WS's intent to hurt their spouse. It wasn't mine. And it wasn't his. If someone is out to hurt you and had zero remorse about it, what kind of relationship can you have? If he looked at me and said, I love you and am glad I hurt you, what does that mean? How can you love someone and be glad you hurt them? It's why revenge affairs don't make sense to me. If he hated me that much, it's probably over anyway.

We don't consider it a RA affair because as he said, it had nothing to do with me. He had just dealt with a very sudden death in the family and I know that deeply impacted his thinking. I believe him when he says he wasn't thinking about me. And maybe that makes it easier for me. He dealt with his pain in a very unhealthy way. As did I. We hurt each other for sure, but that wasn't the intent. Maybe it's a very fine line but to me it's important.

If he told me he cheated and was glad he hurt me, it just seems worse to me. Which is the entire point of revenge. I had an affair and so did he. Neither were about revenge. Just unhealthy choices to dull the pain in our lives.

Hi DevastatedDee,

I'm not on this site as much as I used to be so I haven't read any of your other posts. My schedule is crazy and time is limited these days. Admittedly even in this thread I have only read the first two pages, but this part of your post really struck me.

When I was 16 I was raped by a friend. My response to that, for reasons that I still don't quite understand, was to become promiscuous and sexually aggressive. To "take sex back" for myself. That's what I told myself in my head, anyway. That's how I justified it. I was a very traumatized teenager with significant trust issues. My world had been turned upside down and for whatever reason, I acted out sexually. Still working on the reason behind that. I thought I'd processed that crap and moved on, but clearly I hadn't.

On DDay, I found out that my husband, my best friend in the world, the man I loved and trusted like no another, had been cheating on me. My reaction was to go be sexually promiscuous for an hour. It's like I was flashed back to being that betrayed and hurt 16-year-old. No real thought went into it. No logic was accessed. No question was asked. I was out of my mind. I strolled in that guy's apartment and performed like a sex goddess when I should have been weeping and wailing instead. PTSD from before reignited by PTSD in the present. I guess you could call it a breakdown.

I'm very sorry that you had this experience. Everyone of my partners that I've had in life has been raped. This reaction that you had is not atypical. Quite common. I've been a victim of CSA myself. I've also been in IC for four years now and have done a lot of heavy lifting. I've been diagnosed with a dissociative disorder and complex PTSD. One thing I have learned is that victims of sexual abuse in all it's different forms act out, often unconsciously, in an effort to "normalize" what they went through. I'm not an armchair IC but I would say based on my experiences it sounds like that's what you could have been doing. "Normalizing" in some way the events that happened to you. In your words "to take sex back".

Could that have been what you were doing with the RA? "Normalizing" your situation?

So what I did was just as bad in some people's minds. Be that as it may. I profoundly disagree.

Guessing that because of what you went through is why you have a different perspective and do not see what other people see in that it was just as bad? That to you perhaps you have to "normalize" in order to protect yourself?

Just thinking out loud here.

yop

Here's the piece that I think is being missed in the initial A vs. RA debate...the matter of a double standard.

When a WS first has an affair they are doing so with the expectation that their BS is/will still be faithful. Outside of that there is no need for deception and the WS is considering the marriage/union to now be open - even if the BS has not agreed.

This is not the established standard with a RA. The WS has made that issue null and void. Ironically, it is also that very aspect that makes a RA largely incapable of metering justice.

Again, this is not to suggest that a RA is right, good, or even necessarily excusable. It's just to point out how one cannot necessarily be compared to the other. To do so, imho, is a largely moot point. I can however heartily agree that a BS that has a RA is still just as responsible to deal with any fall-out (including potential consequences of divorce, other parties hurt, etc) as is a WS that has committed the first offense. The simple math of metering justice without also inflicting further injustice (to innocent parties) was complicated enough for me to require substantial consideration nd discussion to the matter and thus buy me both time and opportunity to fully evaluate the decision for myself (and ultimately come to a broader perspective of what would best serve ME).

The matter of WS intent in the original affair is also largely subjective. I personally had rather him to have behaved out of an anger than a complete disregard. The fact that I was so insignificant hurt me much more than had I deemed him to be angry, retributive. But that is my perspective and experience.

There's also the point that a WS has no excuse for having an affair. Even if they come home from work every day and the BS punches them in face. They should leave or have their spouse arrested. If there is no acceptable scenario for an affair then it's not excusable for a BS under any circumstance.

Nicenomore:

I see a lot of people who are still hurting because they took the “high road” and reconciled, looked down on meeting new people, and took their cheating spouse back.

You gave various options and scenarios after dday for the BS but the quote above is the only one that didn't involve an RA, you forgot those that divorce without having an RA. That is always an option. I'm even okay with BS's who tell the WS they're divorcing them and begin dating before the courts declare the divorce final (although I advise against it because dating before healing is dangerous).

The piece that's making the discussions hard to have is that its not comparing apples to apples...

If a spouse comes home every night and punches the other in the face, is it acceptable for the abused spouse to punch back?

We can have this discussion from a perspective of is it helpful. But that doesn't seem to be the tone it has taken...but rather more an issue of if it is right.

So is that punched spouse just as wrong - perhaps even more so since they firsthand understand the pain of being punched - in punching back?

It's a simple question...and should be easily answered since we are taking in such absolutes. I would assume that infidelity would be just as egregious as murder, domestic abuse, etc...at least when being able to paint it with such broad strokes. Yes? Perhaps in answering a less personally charged example I can have a better understanding of whether this is a conversation I even want to continue.

Much respect to all who are participating...

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 8:01 PM, November 19th (Sunday)]

I am a Mad Hatter. I had a Revenge Affair for revenge! I am a little different since I have had PTSD from events starting when I was 11, I am now 68 and finally starting to try and deal with some of it. I learned at that early age that if somebody hurts you STRIKE BACK HARD! If you hit back hard enough they won't ever slap you again.

My revenge affair was with my ex's older sister. My ex had gone to a bar and came home telling me she had jacked off someone in the parking lot. This was just after my oldest daughter was born I mean within months. I then went TDY (temporary Duty) for 28 days. Plenty of time away if I really wanted to cheat.

When I came home my sister-in-law was staying over. I had no idea she would be there she lived in Tx and we were in Florida. I did not even like the woman. We were sitting around the dinner table talking about sex and there was an act that my ex said "not only no but HELL no!" I looked at my sister-in-law and the look on her face said all I had to do was ask so a couple of days later I did.

My thinking on this went that while a best friend would hurt, you could cut them out and go on with life. A sister however was FOREVER!!!

Other than great sex (sister-in-law was VERY enthusiastic) it was a loss on my part. I lost moral high ground and she never got hurt because she had never really cared.

The only other good thing I got out of this was the karma train that later ran over my ex. Her second husband also slept with her oldest sister and the sister that was younger than the other sister I had slept with (yup 2 sisters but the second one for me was after we were in the process of divorce). To top it off Her second husband divorced her and married the younger sister!! Just a little FOO problem.

Just what happened to me. Would I ever cheat again? No, I have been married 20 years now to my second wife and never even thought about it. I NEVER would have cheated on my first wife had she not cheated. However she turned out to be "meaner than me" and continued to the point where she intentionally destroyed my career and my life. YMMV