SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So, I figured I need to type this out.

I’ll start with the timeline of my wife’s affair. It’s a pretty important detail that they live on different continents and therefore couldn’t meet very often.

Spring 2016

My wife had a career set back. During this time she got to know AP. He was part of the management team that she was bumped down from. He kept briefing her on the gossip of the group. She took the set back very hard and kept mulling on it. He became a connection to it for her. I believe myself that without the demotion, the affair wouldn’t have taken place. It gave her just the weakness needed to step outside of what’s normally acceptable. It’s not an excuse, but it’s an explanation (along with other things of course).

Summer 2016

They met again, he was flirty over text. Wanted to know her room number. She didn’t tell. She realized it was crossing a line still but it was all innocent fun. She was in control. They also started a project together which led to them having a lot of Skype sessions. He gave her lots of positive confirmation and feed back during this.

Late summer 2016 – The mistake

They had dinner while on a business trip and after it was over he was complaining that the evening was coming to an end. He was outside her room and she was getting ready for bed. For some reason, she opened the door topless and let him in. Very giggly, still believing she was in control (pro tip: she was not). He didn’t see much; she turned around and went to bed. He laid down with her and hugged her. After a while she was turned on by this, reached out and touched his penis on his clothes. Then she turned around, pulled down her panties and let him fuck her. He asked her if she was sure, she doesn’t remember if she answered. While fucking, she suddenly ”woke up” and felt horrible. She let him finish and just asked him to leave. She spent the night awake but blank. She had trouble facing me when she came home. She has described this as somehow believing she was in control and could stop it at any moment. And suddenly, he was inside of her and she had lost it all.

She was very determined to ignore it. It didn’t happen and it would certainly not happen again. She made that clear to him the next day and at one more point later on.

Fall 2016 – The passion meet

She has said that she didn’t really think about it when the next trip came up. She was at the location before him and when he came to the hotel he wanted to come over to her room. She said he probably needed to sleep. But he begged her, he came over and he hugged her. And somehow he had this magical hug that just flipped a switch in her. They spent that first night together with sex about 5 times. She has told me she didn’t want to, she was in pain and didn’t enjoy it but she wanted to act her part and be sexy and forward. She initiated a lot even as part of her performance. They spent 4 nights together straight but not as intensive at that first night. When they split for 2 days she was pulled out of the fog a bit. When they met after those two days she refused him and broke it off. She was sad over this. I understand the truth about willingness is somewhere in between – she probably both wanted it and not but of course mostly wanted.

Winter 2017 – The dirty sex meet

A few months later they met at another trip. She had been annoyed with me. She decided to try it out again but quickly realized she had nothing to gain from this. She can’t remember the sex. She knows it happened. I’ve seen some excerpts of texts after this where she told him it wasn’t good. She also tells me that in a way this was the most disrespectful meet because she was very convinced and sure about what she was doing. She was consciously travelling to meet her lover and fuck him.

Around this time things started to pick up between us. I consider this the turning point where she really begun to leave the idea of an affair and coming back to work on us.

Spring 2017

It was close to happening once more after this. She refused him and told him it was over, he begged her for a final time and she accepted. They never undressed. She grabbed him, he was flaccid and she laughed at him. This is close to as bad as actually having sex but at least it didn’t happen which is nice to know since this was straight after a weekend getaway we’d had. I’ve pushed hard for any reveals on this trip but she cannot remember any sex happening.

Spring 2017

She had what she called a relapse and sexted him

Late spring 2017

They met during daytime; he gave her a bracelet but nothing else. It was in our home country where she never wanted to pursue anything. She says it was too close to reality. No nights away.

Summer 2017

She travelled to his home country. Before travelling decided to break up. She broke up. He of course tried to sleep with her, which she has been very adamant she refused.

After this she brought him up more in our home, talking about him as a friend. She says now that she felt safe to mention him since there was nothing going on. She met him on one more trip and actually slept in the same room without anything happening. Should I believe this? I suppose I do since it is such a ridiculous detail to tell me and then lie about that single detail.

D-Day

In October I was contacted by the oBS. She had some damning screen shots of their texting. I still of course tried to rationalize it and see no ill will. I drove home and confronted my wife. She tried to explain it but the explanations where thin. Over the next few hours something was not sitting right with me and I started doubting everything. I didn’t accuse her too hard, afraid of causing a trust issue (hah!). Later that evening, she realized it would never end and came clean. I asked her to immediately send her AP a text saying that I knew everything and to never contact her again.

As luck would have it, she quit her job a few days later and was without a phone. So I could quite easily monitor everything and I truly believe they went NC. She answered all my questions and didn’t really TT even though she remembered some details after a while. She also tried to pin the blame on our bad marriage and my lack of attention on her but have since realized it was an act of egoism and due to bad behavioural traits since an abusive childhood.

Rationally, I can understand how a human gets to this position. A multi-faceted crisis and a string of bad decisions and whoops, you fucked up. However, emotionally this is still hard. And trust.

We are currently working on us. She is well aware that I’m undecided as far as D or R goes. Most of the time I want to R but I’m not sure I’m capable. Due to her messed up childhood, opening up and being vulnerable is hard for her (which I’ve known since before). We are working with a therapist on this, both her in IC and us in MC.

So, since it all began things have been messed up of course. The first week was the worst. No sleep, hard to eat. Finally went to the doctor to get some sleep and it helped. Slowly I've been getting my head back in the right place. I did take three weeks off when my wife wasn't working and we kept talking and talking and talking.

I'm both satisfied and disappointed. She has, seemingly, not trickled. She has answered all my questions and gone over a time line with me. I don't have much reason to believe she's hidden anything since the actual times they've been able to meet are few.

However, she is not as remorseful as I'd wish. I know there are some WW that are really sorry about what they've done. My wife has an ability to block her feelings and it's only sometimes that her armor cracks open and she breaks down.

I do believe that the affair was ended to 90 %. She still kept him luke warm for her to be able to get some strokes for her ego. She was however done with the sexual and deeply emotional affair.

She has also stated that in a way she is relieved that everything is exposed since it was a burden for her (but still one she was prepared to carry)

Given the geographical distance I'm sure she is NC with AP, she wants to R even though she sometimes tries to give up (coping mechanism, working on it in IC), and that realizes that she is very close to having fucked over her entire life.

I'm on the fence.

I am sorry you are here.

Your wife had a long term affair that went on for a year. She went back several times.

That is not undone in 2 months of being "honest". Nor does she have the real tools to be vulnerable in a healthy way.

Your wife would have had an affair...regardless of station at her job because she is broken and needs to fill that whole.

Your wife has not been fully honest because it is painful for her and she doesnt have the skills yet. She is being superficial in her honesty...she has not yet gotten to the ugly parts of herself that allowed her to do this over the course of years.

Continue to post and be open to feedback. No one here wants you fail or your marriage. But we do want you to be healthy.

Your wife would have had an affair...regardless of station at her job because she is broken and needs to fill that whole.

You're probably right. Maybe not at this time but the capacity to do so was there all along.

She is being superficial in her honesty...she has not yet gotten to the ugly parts of herself that allowed her to do this over the course of years.

I agree - she is petrified of getting to the core of who she is. I think I see it more than she does and I know that if she won't be able to work through it, we won't make it.

what did she say to herself that allowed her to open the door to her room topless?

After this she brought him up more in our home, talking about him as a friend.

That stands out as a glaring contradiction. Most talk of their APs in this way when they are in the middle of the affair, when feelings are in full swing, when they just don't realize they're talking about the AP so often but always have them on the brain.

Her accounting of the affair contains some nastiness, but I doubt you have the real story at this point.

Case in point...

She met him on one more trip and actually slept in the same room without anything happening. Should I believe this?

No, but it sounds like you realize that already.

Cheaters lie. Talk with OBS to confirm the stories you've gotten from your WW. If you can't do that, assume your wife is the one lying, since that is the most likely scenario. Good luck.

Throughout this narrative you present your wife as being very reluctant. I think you are being naive here. She was a very active participant in an Affair that lasted for more than a year. She opened the door topless and sex just "happened"? Really?

Come on. You know this is not true. She knew all along what was going to happen and where this was leading from the beginning. All of that about bad sex and not enjoying it, that is a lie! She continued it because she enjoyed it. She wanted to be with him, at some point she didn't want it, probably right at the time that his wife discovered it.

She is scrambling now to salvage her Marriage because things fell apart with the OM. She may or may not be remorseful. I can't tell from this but she didn't give this up willingly and she was not dragged along in this Affair. Please wake up to her culpability in this whole thing.

Sharing is good man. Don't let this shit bottle up.

Have you tried to look at her detailed telephone billings? I called to ask for just 1 month and turned out they talked every days during April while he told me they were ...splitting. In March, they talked 1 hour on the anniversary of his father passing away ... He forgot to call his mom that day - 1st time since his dad passed away ... actions talk by themselves ....

Just think if the guy lived in the same area, or if you remained in the dark.

She simply doesn't sound remorseful, only regret.

Nothing special here just your typical cheater;

It wasn't a mistake. It was a conscious planned decision

Brokenviking, your WW is trying very hard to paint this narrative where she is a victim to circumstance. It's not even remotely true and it's time to take off the rose-tinted glasses and see this for what it is.

For some reason, she opened the door topless and let him in. Very giggly, still believing she was in control (pro tip: she was not).

She did it because she was coming on to him. She knew he was into it because he previously asked for her hotel room number. If this was some sort of bad joke, she would have never let him inside the room and would have closed the door immediately. But she didn't!

After a while she was turned on by this, reached out and touched his penis on his clothes. Then she turned around, pulled down her panties and let him fuck her. He asked her if she was sure, she doesn’t remember if she answered.

SHE TOUCHED HIS PENIS AND PULLED DOWN HER OWN PANTS! It does not matter if she answered or not. It does not get more direct than that. She wanted it. She initiated it every step of the way. I can tell you that I have NEVER once not removed my pants in a bed with someone else and was surprised when sex happened. IT. JUST. DOES. NOT. HAPPEN!

While fucking, she suddenly ”woke up” and felt horrible. She let him finish and just asked him to leave. She spent the night awake but blank. She had trouble facing me when she came home. She has described this as somehow believing she was in control and could stop it at any moment. And suddenly, he was inside of her and she had lost it all.

Well she was in control. She was in control when she took off her shirt and opened the door knowing he was standing there. She was in control when she let him inside of her room. She was in control when she lay down on the bed. She was in control when she touched him sexually. She was in control when she took off her pants. She knew exactly what she was doing. She just doesn't want you to know how she took the initiative to sleep with him when she could have easily let him go on his way and never have done this in the first place.

They spent that first night together with sex about 5 times. She has told me she didn’t want to, she was in pain and didn’t enjoy it but she wanted to act her part and be sexy and forward. She initiated a lot even as part of her performance. They spent 4 nights together straight but not as intensive at that first night.

NOPE! You do not go back for seconds, thirds, fourths, fifths, and 3 more nights of it if it sucks. You just don't. If you take a bite of something disgusting, do you keep eating it for 4 more days? Of course not!

She met him on one more trip and actually slept in the same room without anything happening. Should I believe this? I suppose I do since it is such a ridiculous detail to tell me and then lie about that single detail.

Why would you believe her after all of the lies she has told you? How do you even wrap your head around how her ACTIONS of repeatedly going back to this guy come no where near her WORDS about supposedly hating every minute of it? When someone's actions don't match up with their words, it's because they're lying. Actions speak louder than words and in this case, her actions are telling the truth. Expect this to be a lie too until you have confirmation that it isn't.

And you may be wondering why she would lie about it - to soften the blow. To minimize the damage that she's down. To cover her own behind. To blame you, the OM, the marriage, anything but her own cruel and hurtful self as the reason why she did this.

But here's the rub - you cannot R with her until she accepts that she is fully 100% responsible for this. You cannot R until she at the very least admits that she started this whole thing by opening the door topless and take full responsibility for that night where she initiated every step. You at least need to get a convincing reason for why she kept going back for fifths and more that actually makes sense since her current one does not. You may be able to accept these incredibly weak excuses today but over time, you will think of them and your mind will tear itself apart attempting to reason with how her words and actions could be so far apart. Save yourself the pain and get the real story now.

You also may want to consider a polygraph. It will give you a general baseline of truth to work with moving forward. If she is telling the truth about everything, she will jump at the chance to prove it. If not, you will get a string of excuses and refusals which tells you that you don't have the full story yet.

Apparently, my own account of this was to spicy for my work network so I can’t access my own post, haha.

@Feelingthenoose

Well, she did talk about him before everything started. During the affair they were in constant contact daily by texting. After the break up they still remained in contact daily, but now she was also mentioning him to me. It fits the time line quite well.

I’m not trying to smooth over the contact after the supposed break up. The official timeline here is that it started a few months before the first physical encounter and ended on DDAY. She agrees that she might have told him it was over but she still kept going back to the emotional outlet that he was. I do believe she felt done with the physical affair – she has stated that she was happy to change jobs to get away from him and had told him the last time they met that they would never see each other again. It took a few days and I believe this insight was a small step for her for coming out of the fog (of which she is probably not entirely cleared).

Regarding them sharing a room and nothing happening; I believe it since she voluntarily gave up the information and the way it happened seems plausible. Cancelled flight led to a voucher room etc so it wasn’t planned. She has mentioned that she was happy to have been put to the test of being with him without anything happening. This helped her feel convinced she was done. I’ve asked her many times about this and the story sticks.

@beenthereinco

Absolutely, the story above is not good. I wrote most of it a month or so ago when I was in a greater need to paint it pink. I’m not looking at her as a victim in this. I am looking her as the perp that pursued everything that happened. I probably shouldn’t have left those excuses in there, they are to me too excuses .

I guess one insight I have here is that during all this, the BS tries to create a rationale for everything and we make up narratives and stories. And they never sit right. Tons of details in her story have been so awkward for me. And then, suddenly, you realize that “she actually did that because she wanted to” or something similar. And in a way, that is easier to handle because you know you are not trying to trick yourself. It’s painful to walk to the end of each minitrauma in this whole thing but relase awaits you upon acceptance of each detail.

She is trying to salvage her marriage since it was exposed. She told me she broke it off with him because the thrill of it died out and in the end it didn’t give her anything good. She wanted to return to her family. However, she has admitted not putting in any work and more being annoyed with the boring routine of family life and still keeping him in texting contact. So what is happening now is her being put to the test. She has to start putting in the work on herself, help healing me and after that, we both need to work on what wasn’t working in our marriage.

@2017

No way to look at billings, we don’t have personal phones. But it doesn’t matter, they stayed in touch more or less every day until the day before DDAY.

@MidnightRun

I agree, remorse isn’t there (I can see glimpses of it at some times). She has been conditioned since childhood to never show vulnerability, fear or mercy. It is pretty hard for her to reach these feelings. I see her trying and she admits she is really afraid of what it means to get there. She feels like if she lets it out, she will collapse.

Our therapist is working a lot on this and we have begun something. Klosko & Young have some theories on “negative life patterns” that seems to fit her fairly well. We’ll see where it leads us.

@Marz

Yep.

@Nekonamida

As I wrote above, I’ve been painting it pink a lot. She has argued with me when I’ve minimized her role in it. That is painful in the moment of course but I understand the importance. In the beginning of it all I created a very well-crafted narrative about how she was basically raped and abused. She let me entertain the idea for a day before telling me that “you know, that’s not really what happened. I let him in; I initiated and asked him to have sex with me”.

That’s why I can believe that nothing happened that last time. Because she has been very hard on me, feeding me details, owning what happened and refusing my narratives. I just didn’t reflect that well in my post here.

So, regarding your post about what she needs to do for R to be possible. She has confessed she enjoyed it. It might have been painful for her but the thrill was a great pain killer. She was drunk on the affair. There is no way for me to rose tint it anymore. And she sure as shit haven’t tried to cover any details (sometimes, I wish she had).

As far as polygraphs go, unfortunately not something we have here. I don’t think even courts use them. Have googled for it but haven’t found any that offer it. I will keep looking.

Do you have postnups there?

Usually I try to lay out strategies for people dealing with infidelity. I have a tough time with this case thought. This is a long meandering post but rather than cut back I think I will let it all slip out in the hope it makes sense…

Let’s begin with one statement (well… maybe a group of statements… maybe more of a manifesto).

I believe ANY marriage can reconcile from ANYTHING.

I do not think EVERY marriage should reconcile from anything.

I think the goal needs to be to get out of infidelity. That is the destination. I also think there are only two paths or methods that can get us there. We can divorce and by ending the infidelity-relationship we get out of infidelity. We can reconcile and by dealing with all the issues that made the WS cheat and by furnishing the marriage with all the tools needed we can create a great marriage.

In the years I have been here I have yet to find a third, good option.

I think the two-main basis for reconciliation are truth and accountability. This goes both ways - both partners.

I also think that one really needs to understand what you are trying to save. What is marriage to you? What do you want in your wife? What do you want in yourself as a husband and partner? What do you want the relationship to be when you are 70? Will you trust this person to decide when to turn off life-support for you? When you stand at her grave will you feel regret, remorse, gratitude?

You need to be able to look at your wife and really WANT to have her as a life-partner.

And then you need to think how that is possible if one or both of you is carrying a dark, deep secret. If the person you will need to trust through your darkest hours doesn’t trust you enough to share her darkest secrets.

Like I say – this goes both ways. In a good marriage, there isn’t any room for secrets on issues that impact the marriage.

I often apply methods and logic used in project-management and business to personal life and marriage. Like doing a budget for the home… I don’t know of a single successful business that doesn’t have good accounts and financial-management. Yet most of us manage our home paycheck-to-paycheck. No successful company would set off without a plan with milestones and defined goals, yet we meander along life with unclear goals and destinations. Part of reconciliation is to make the marriage more focused. It’s no longer simply the woman you dated and eventually married. It’s the partner that has the same goals and destinations you have.

So, start with this exercise: Sit down for half an hour and really think:

Is this the person you want to spend your life with?

Is there potential in this relationship to create the best marriage ever?

If your conclusion is that she isn’t the one… well… be honest to both of you and admit it.

If, however you want to reconcile then realize and accept that it’s going to be immense and challenging work.

Imagine you live an unhealthy life. You eat unhealthy, are stressed, smoke, drink too much and don’t exercise. Then one day you feel an immense pain and wake up two days later in ICU. Your doctor tells you that if you don’t change things you won’t last and your arteries are doomed to clog with fat.

This is where your marriage is – the body in that bed is your marriage.

So, you call a nutritionist and a personal trainer. You join a gym. You decide to cut back on the alcohol and smokes. You google yoga…

But nothing has changed…

Calling a nutritionist doesn’t change your diet. Your actions of buying, preparing and eating better food makes the changes.

Same with the personal trainer and the gym. Simply carrying a card and having the trainers number won’t do anything. It’s only when YOU do things that it changes.

Same with deciding to quit smoking. Decide all you want but it only happens when you do it.

You could do exercise and eat healthier but still smoke and drink. Might delay your next arrest by a couple of years…

If you take all the required steps and do all the required work then chances are that 5 years from now you are in the best shape ever, physically and mentally. But when you reflect on your progress you would never be grateful for the cardiac arrest that was the catalyst for change. You would be grateful for the work that made the change happen, but always be sad knowing you could have done all this without having sunk to where you were before.

It's the same with your marriage. Not having sex with other men is not the solution just like the fat in the artery was not the problem but rather whatever led to it building up. If you and your wife adapt healthy mental paths – both personally and together – and exercise those paths daily you can reach a better place.

So, can you reach that place?

Look at your first post on this thread. Note how many times you say your wife didn’t want to, didn’t intend to but did. Answering the door topless and not expecting a response… getting in bed and not expecting response… Remember – you can say things without words. Your wife’s actions say a lot.

So, if she repeatedly has told you she didn’t want to or didn’t intend to and yet it happened then why believe her now when she tells you she doesn’t want to and doesn’t intend to?

I guess the OM is still working at the same company and has reasons to travel to your country.

I think as part of the honesty you should confront her on this. What is preventing her from falling for him one more time? He will be in your country at some time. If she gets a job in the same industry then how are you to trust her when she goes to a convention or meeting where he might be?

Ask her how – since she used going through a rough patch with you as an excuse for one encounter – she will deal with issues in your relationship in the future. What if you don’t do your share of house-chores? Would that justify a quick BJ for someone?

But then. You can go crazy constantly monitoring her and/or controlling her. It’s important to realize that although accountability is required then we – the BS – need to be prepared to let go of what we can’t control.

This is why I often suggest the BH tells his wife something along the lines of this:

“I would do a lot to save this marriage but there is something that is definitely worse than divorce. I can envision being content in a life without you, but I can’t envision a life where I SHARE you. Therefore, you are totally free to see OM or any other man, but not as my wife.

This is the basic honesty I ask of you. If you want to remain in infidelity then at least be honest and admit it and we can go our ways. It’s not the end of the world and we will both be OK.

If you want to remain married then remember – it’s YOUR CHOICE and nobody is forcing you to remain here, but you need to commit verbally and clearly to the steps needed so we can move on.”

It can be good to be open on all options. Discuss divorce with her. Ask her how she envisions the division of assets and all that stuff. Ask her where she wants to be in 5 years and if you are in that picture. Ask her where she would be if you decide this is a deal breaker.

Why did she leave the job?

Maybe you should phone the HR Manager and tell him of the affair. Let him know that if you ever catch OM nosing around your wife again you will be looking at legal resources to protect yourself. That although your wife might not want to press the issue then you see this as sexual abuse from a manager to a subordinate. With the ongoing #meetoo wave companies take these issues seriously.

What is her present work-situation?

I suggest you hear out the OW. It might be that you have that unicorn, the WW that confesses everything right away. At the least take the OMW info and corroborate. There might be conflicts. Maybe OM has several women in-line. But maybe there is something she is hiding, maybe there was more contact in your country than you imagine.

You say you want R but don't know if you can do it.

Rest assured that you can. Some version of pride can get in the way, but that sort of pride never did anybody any good. You can overcome that barrier and any other barrier that pops up.

IMO, honesty is a key - perhaps the key - to R, and your W seems to have been honest. That is a GREAT start to recovery and to possible R.

It sounds like the questions you have revolve around whether or not she'll stay the course to change from cheater to good partner. I think that is exactly one of the big questions every BS needs to keep at the top of his mind.

You don't have to commit to R or D right now. You can continue to work on yourself and your M while observing your W. More data about her may show she is or is not truly a good candidate for R. More data about you should show you whether to choose D, R, or collecting more data.

******************************

Meanwhile, I imagine you've got a giant storm going on inside your head. what are you doing to handle your thoughts and feelings?

This timelines screams of minimization, gaslighting, blame transference. It gives the impression it was written by an unremorseful cheating spouse trying to do major damage control and covering their own butt. I hope that's not the case but as I read over the timeline it seems it was written by someone trying to generate sympathy for the cheater. That's the vibe it gives off.

[This message edited by CincyKid at 7:02 AM, December 19th (Tuesday)]

Am I reading your signature line correctly, are your children 14 years and 3 months old?

@Notthevictem

No, not something that we use here. Prenups exist but are quite rare.

I have met with an attorney to discuss setting up a will and how custody works. There was basically no grounds for taking any specific measures at this time. Our assets are accumulated together, both have been working and have equal shares in house, cars, etc.

We have of course also tested us, both clean.

@Bigger

I’m so happy see you give me some of your time. You are one of the posters here that I keep seeing offering very wise advice. Your post has given me some things to think about and some to reply to. However, hard to do on phone so I’ll return later on tonight.

One thing I feel I need to be clear on though is that during the first days after DDAY she tried to convince me how she wanted to end it, etc. she has since admitted that she was trying to rationalize it to herself. Had she truly not wanted it, she would have ended it (which she later did).

@Cincykid

I’ve written it and all minimizations are mine. I have since I wrote it a month ago accepted a harsher reality.

@Zen2011

No, length of relationship and marriage

[This message edited by brokenviking at 7:06 AM, December 19th (Tuesday)]