SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thanks for clearing that up. I agree with your path.

I’m also going to provide below a list of signs I’ve collected from SI threads that show if a WS is remorseful. It’s obviously not a complete list. But may be useful to you.

Maybe I should have a revenge affair with him

Now that would be a unique twist perhaps not ever seen on this forum!

SIGNS OF A REMORSEFUL WW

- She would be inconsolable with the thought of how she was the cause of so much pain to the person she loves most in the world.

- she would be begging to know what she could do to make it right.

- for you she would want to let everyone know it was her that screwed up, not you.

- she would want to read books on how to support her BS. She proactively orders them and starts reading. She actively discussed what she is reading

- she would be in IC as much as possible to figure out what went wrong with her and how she could do this to the person she loves most in the world. She proactively schedules this for herself and also proactively asks her therapist for IC recommendations for you to help you deal with the pain she has caused.

- she would feel your pain more than her own and put your happiness ahead of hers.

- she would follow your lead when it comes to intimacy, trying to figure out what you need to feel connected again

- she will gladly answer your questions at any time day or night with no objections

- she would write you a letter of apology highlighting how she must have made you feel

- she would focus most on your well being, ignoring her own

- she would realize what the OM really is and start being sick at the thought of him/her. She would start calling him/her names like POS for how he helped her destroy her life.

- They show remorse thru actions, not words. Examples of this could be that they proactively prepared a written timeline of what happened and are as thorough and factual as they can be.

- Other examples are: They book a polygraph when you are available to attend. And they buy a GPS tracker for their car so they can give you peace of mind. They sell something of value to only them to pay for these things so the cost doesn't come from your joint funds (e.g. Collectibles or jewelry or exercise equipment).

If they are only showing Regret and not Remorse then they will only be giving you words, not actions: e.g. "I'm so sorry. But you can trust me now. I promise you I've told you the whole truth: e.g. "You can trust me now. I love you. It didn't mean anything. I know I messed up - do you forgive me? I was so stupid, but I've learned from my mistakes. It's in the past now and we can move forward. I love you more now than I ever have. I promise it will never happen again, can we move on?"

Finally. THE EFFORT PUT INTO RECONCILIATION! If the betrayer doesn't work harder at repairing the relationship than they did to damage it, it isn't going to work no matter if you stay together or not. They need to be working harder at R than you are.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 9:35 AM, January 31st (Wednesday)]

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[This message edited by MyNameIsNobody at 11:17 AM, February 15th (Thursday)]

MyName,

My take on the Plan Alphabet issue?

Look at her time-line. The affair was about a year. Allegedly she wanted to leave you for him but he stopped her because he didn’t want to break up your family. He then ends the affair because he wants a “normal” relationship…

I have a four-year-old loving, ever-friendly black Labrador. He’s the friendliest dog ever and is friends with all other dog he meets. That is – if I’m not walking him on a leash. On a leash, he might strain and growl at other dogs. I think he does that because he’s confident I won’t set him free. He knows he can huff and puff and act all brave because I will hold him back.

Not comparing your wife to a dog, but her behavior during the affair is probably comparable to the logic my mutt uses. The affair is so romantic. The love was so meant to be. The OM is wearing white armor and gallops around on a unicorn in-between killing dragons and saving kittens. But the curse of the old Wizard (namely you) forces the fair princess to sacrifice her desires to save the kingdom (the family).

The man having an affair with your wife with such high morals that he didn’t want to destroy your family? Seriously – affair about 4-5 years ago… Kids at the ages you have and the family would have been fine in a divorce. No – your family and its health never entered his or your wife’s mind.

He refuses to let her end the marriage yet he ends the affair because he wants a “real” relationship? Oh please! How sad. Wait while I dry my eyes…

All the above… that’s your wife barking at the other dog’s safe in her leash.

It’s impossible to guess what would have happened had you discovered the affair back when it was active. But let’s just say your first response would be the path I recommend: “Wife – you are free to be with OM, but not as my wife. I’m moving out of infidelity and unless you clearly commit to the marriage then I’m leaving you behind”. I would be willing to place money on your wife dropping her AP and the affair and working hard at saving her marriage.

You were never Plan B, C, D or any other letter, digit or combination of letters and digits. There was no Plan B simply because there was no Plan A either. There was no plan.

The affair was all fantasy and imagination. This is precisely why we so strongly recommend exposure to wreck ongoing infidelity. It makes the affair real.

Your wife wants MC… Yet she maintains the affair has nothing to do with you.

So why MC? What’s the goal there?

I strongly support MC, but the real issue is that she needs to dig into why she decided to look for her old BF, contact him (or answer), meet him, allow things to develop, have sex, keep it a secret, end it, a year later chronicle it…. That is all IC – not MC.

I’m not advocating you divorce. BUT… have you two discussed divorce? Have you sat down with her and told her that one possible outcome is that you two simply end the marriage?

After all – if she is being truthful about the black hole. If you can’t believe her about it being untrue. If she wanted to leave you but OM stopped it. If these things are true then maybe the most honest thing to do would be to divorce.

It’s a bit like discussing what to do before undergoing life-threatening surgery. You don’t go under the knife intending to die, but it makes sense to have gone over inheritance, insurance and such. Your marriage is at risk, and it would make sense for both of you to understand what divorce would entail. If nothing else it might make the weight of what is at stake clearer.

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[This message edited by MyNameIsNobody at 11:18 AM, February 15th (Thursday)]

So after he reads in her words how she wanted to leave him for the OM, and then the OM wouldn't take her, she then wanted to keep on having the A, but the OM stopped bc he wanted a real R with someone else, at that point she then decides to stay with him. But for 2 years waxes poetic on a website about the OM.

How can anyone know this story and say that the OP wasn't her first choice until she had no other choice?

[This message edited by GoldenR at 11:26 AM, January 31st (Wednesday)]

Wanted to comment on OM's motives, but Bigger put it much better.

OM left her not because he didn't want to break up the family or that he wanted "real" relationship. He just grew tired of her. There was no affair from his side if he was single, no additional thrill from hiding from his girlfriend or wife. She was just an easy hole for him, with reduced "romantic" bullshit (because she had to hide it from you).

I also agree with Bigger that usually there's no plan in A.

I can tell everyone here that I was definitely Plan B. While the A was happening,before I knew about it, she gave me the "ilybinilwy" bullshit speech. Told me to give her some time to find herself and maybe eventually she'd want to be back with me. Read: if it doesn't work out with OM, I'll want you again.

Once busted, I told her not to come home. She didn't. She moved in with him. A little over a year later she calls me to tell me she made a mistake, and that she loved me and wanted to come home. She didn't know that I had inside info that her and OMs R was falling apart, that they were always fighting about money. He had even pulled a gun on her at one point. So you tell me, once their R was in trouble, and she suddenly realized she wanted me, how on Earth can you convince me that I wasn't her plan B?

I told her to fuck off and hung up on her.

Had the OP's wife's OM told her to leave, she would have. And then she would have wanted to come back. Plan b

[This message edited by GoldenR at 1:00 PM, January 31st (Wednesday)]

In a former life, I was employed in the Justice system. For serious crimes, your first recommendation was jail time, and then you reasoned from there why they should be allowed to stay in the community.

When i initially would confront with this, it would immediately have a sobering effect on the offender, and would immediately eliminate the bs.

For serious Infidelity, I strongly consider Divorce as the first option, then you work from there about whether it can be saved. This would also eliminate all the bs.

Divorce for your WW should be the first recommendation. I know that you may feel this initially harsh but it gives a strong starting point.

I am now a firm believer of consequences.The BS is usually the only person who has to deal with them and as we all know, this not fair.

In your instance, look at both of these concepts, and see if they are of value to you.

Unfortunately for me, I remembered years after, and i wish i had someone to remind me or a forum like this for guidance.

There's lots of opinions on the whole "plan B" thing and I have one too. When a person cheats they always think of their spouse as "plan B" - the person they will fall back on if they are busted. My point is that the WS doesn't have to get to the point of planning a life with the other person to relegate their BS to plan B status. That happens as soon as WS decides to screw the other person. All BS's are or were their WS's plan B.

[This message edited by ISurvived7734 at 1:27 PM, January 31st (Wednesday)]

forgot to add to my thread... if POSOM somehow whats to rekindle the A, whats the likelihood of it reoccuring. Never discount this. As you realized, you didnt think that it would have occurred in the first place

I dont want to put stumbling blocks in front of you but make sure that you are permanently moving away from infidelity.

Your the most important person.

Hardest part of this whole ordeal to confront is the fact that she didn't choose me over him. It would almost have been better if she had left me then made the decision to come back since that would have given me something to build on... Assuming (for the sake of argument) she is sincere and I am the one she chooses now, how can she convince me? She can't go back and undo the things she wrote and the decisions she made. I don't know whether she would have really left or if, as some here have suggested, the posting was just "grass is greener" fantasy. I certainly don't assume that it was fantasy and have to consider that she meant it. ... but I am frankly at a loss what else I can ask her to do to address the "Plan C" problem.

MyName, one thought is that she explains why she is choosing you. Or is it better said, why post A she stayed? Why she stayed is important at this stage precisely because it does indirectly take Plan Alphabet out of the mix. When Plan Alphabet is in the mix she must overcome what she did and what she wrote. You then have to judge which version should drive your decision making. You really knowledge and information as to why you would chose her now. So I would ask her:

1. For the two years after he ended the adultery, why did you stay?

2. Why do you stay now?

3. Why should I chose to stay with you?

These are my restatements of the "givens" in your paragraph:

1. She chose him instead of being exclusively with you.

2. She did leave the marriage without telling you.

3. The things she wrote and the decisions she made were a betrayal of you.

4. The adultery acts were real, not a fantasy.

5. Fantasy versus Grass is Greener gets at speculation of why she did it and would she have left if he decided to take her.

Her "convincing" you would mean she would have to overcome what she did, what she wrote about what she did, and what she wrote about you and your marriage. I believe that her "convincing" you really is her actions post A and now post DDay that she is worthy of you keeping her. This is because of what you said and recognize: she can't walk back on what she did and said. You see, in present time it has nothing to do with her choosing you. Everything has shifted now. Is she worthy of you choosing her for a future relationship and to grow a marriage given what she has done on the past, and what she is doing now. Your previous investment in her and the marriage didn't work out. Will her actions give you reason to invest again?

Your Plan A is you. Can her actions convince you that she is worthy of being part of that plan?

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[This message edited by MyNameIsNobody at 11:19 AM, February 15th (Thursday)]

She has done everything we apparently are supposed to want the WS to do. She has accepted full responsibility for the affair. She has tried to explain why it happened but made it clear that she was not making excuses or ducking blame. She has told me at every available opportunity that it was not my fault.

MyNameIsNobody

I haven’t read much of your thread so please forgive me if I’m repeating what others have written.

Your situation immediately reminded me of AmbivalentOne for many reasons. Four of them are as follows:

1. The affair was over long before it was discovered and the wife had already done a great deal of good work on themselves.

2. The husband was able to read an extensive unfiltered account of the affair written by the wife (emails or website).

3. The wife was very much in love with their AP and pined away for them after the affair was over.

4. The wife would have never ended the affair on their own and made the best of their situation given that their AP was no longer an option.

AmbivalentOne

[This message edited by Michigan at 6:14 PM, January 31st (Wednesday)]

There is no way in Hell that I would ever reconcile with someone who was planning on leaving me for another. I couldn't respect myself knowing that not only has another man had sex with my wife, but it was only through HIS graces that she was still with me. I could never look at myself the same way in the mirror while putting up with that.

It is universally accepted that cheaters should always confess to show remorse?

If you're talking about the cheater "confessing" before the BS knows what happened; it's a plus for the WS but that rarely happens. Even when they do give and unsolicited confession, it's usually because they have reason to believe they're going to be exposed by someone - and it's almost never the complete truth. It will typically include trickle truth and minimizing.

If it's after they've been caught, then it's not really a confession. It's "coming clean" with the complete truth; and yes that has to happen before the BS considers R.

[This message edited by badmemory at 4:30 PM, January 31st (Wednesday)]

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[This message edited by MyNameIsNobody at 11:19 AM, February 15th (Thursday)]

It seems to me that the big question is whether she is currently in love with you or secretly still in love with OM. Since you can't trust the truthfulness of her response to that question you need to ask the question during the poly. Do not tell her ahead of time that it will be a poly question.

I don't have much advice but I do have some observations. First, lying to you when you first ask her about the affair. I wouldn't worry about that lie because 99% of people will lie if they see that their life is fixing to implode. It's the lies after the affair has come to light that you worry about. Second, betrayed spouses and wayward spouses seem to forget some important happenings that occur once the affair has been discovered. You are concerned that you were Plan B or Plan C during the affair. That you were second choice. Stop and take a look at your situation. You are totally in charge of what happens next. Whatever plan you were during the affair is no longer valid. You can now make her whatever plan you want. Example...

Plan A........Reconciliation

Plan B........Separation

Plan C........Revenge affair (not recommended

but possible)

Plan D........Divorce

She is whatever plan you want her to be. If you still love her and want to R then do so but if she doesn't love you then you have a dilemma. With all the advice in the world, the decision on what to do is yours. Resolve to yourself that she will never hurt you like this again. "Hurt me once, shame on you. Hurt me twice, shame on me." You can make this resolve and still make a happy life and future with her. Whatever your decision is, understand that you do not have to feel bad or inferior because of that decision. No one can make you feel bad or inferior without your permission. I believe in second chances but not third chances. Personally I like happen endings so I lean toward R if possible. I read where BS's say "I can't live with that." I learned a long time ago that time always passes, bad feelings diminish, things get better and with the right mind set and the right circumstances there are a lot of things you can live with that you didn't think you could. The more you dwell on a situation the harder it gets. The last thing that the BS forgets and the WS never considers is; "You can replace her just as fast as she replaced you." There are a lot of women in the world looking for a faithful man. I know this because I am retired but have been told that I look good for my age and I dress well. To the amusement of my wife I get hit on a lot by women in their late 50's and their 60's. Live your life the way you want and with who you want. If it's with your wife, then great. If you have love and can build trust and devotion, then it's better to be with the one you know instead of the someone you don't know. I do wish you well.

You mention her problem drinking.

Could you go better into that?

Is she still drinking? How was her drinking a problem?

What has she done to make it not a problem?

There is IMHO immense relevance to these questions. I think that often substance abuse needs to be dealt with before a person is really capable of working on a marriage.

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[This message edited by MyNameIsNobody at 11:19 AM, February 15th (Thursday)]