SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A NC letter is always to be cold, business like,

to the point.

The WW is to say that the affair was wrong and she

regrets all the damage she has done to her family.

She has recommitted her self to repair the damage

that she did to her family. That there will be

NC between her and the OM forever.

I have a different view of NC letters. I think they should reveal nothing about the WS who writes it or the BS or the family. Think in terms of a text message or a tweet:

Dear AP: The purpose of this note is to let you know that I will no longer contact you in any way, unless I am required to do so by law. Please do not attempt to contact me.

Dear AP: The purpose of this note is to let you know that I will no longer contact you in any way, unless I am required to do so by law. Please do not attempt to contact me.

I agree with Sisoon. No need for commentary or narrative. The point is simple and clear: it's over. No contact!

The WW needs to admit what she did was wrong in the

NC letter.

OM, I regret the affair because it was wrong and all

of the damage my affair did to my family.

I am dedicating myself to repairing the damage

I did to my family and BH for the rest of my life.

From this point on there will be NC between us.

I am sorry but that simple NC letter is not a

commentary or a narrative. It sends a clear

message to the OM that she is done with him and

she never will contact him again and he is to

never contact her again.

Cold and to the point. Very business like.

The NC letter is also is just as much for the BH.

The BH must always get to see and approve the NC

letter before the WW sends it. And, it is

recommended that the WW puts it in the envelop,

address its and then hands it over for the BH

to mail it himself. This way the WW cannot be

tempted to change it or not even send it. The

BH knows it got sent and it's message.

The BH does not want to see the WW let the OM

down easy, or that she did not properly close the

door on the OM.

So the WW saying she regrets the affair, the

damage it did, NC, and dedicating herself to her

BH is just as important to the BH to see his WW

to say these things to the OM in the NC letter.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 5:00 PM, March 9th (Friday)]

Iwantmyglasses,

You ask how my wife is at the moment. At the moment she's doing as well as could be expected. It's still early, so there's a certain amount of denial and defensiveness. And between us, more than the usual amount of marital turbulence. But we're staying with it.

One thing we've found that helps is communicating by e-mail. It stops us from becoming angry by cutting each other off when we talk face-to-face. And it allows us to formulate our occasionally contending perspectives without interruption and more precisely. We communicate about the A through email even though we're just a couple of rooms from each other.

In some ways she's doing better than I am. I am still crushed and obsessed by her and the POSOM's words of love and affection in their secret email correspondence; by her saying she had more in common with him than with me, by her telling him of problems in our marriage, by her signaling her availability by denigrating me, and their declaration of mutual love on Valentine's Day. Their exact words, because I discovered the correspondence, are burned into my psyche. I will never be able to forget them and they continue to haunt me every day. This is one of the devastating downsides of discovering and reading the written correspondence of an EA.

Western,

I'm ultimately looking for the whole truth, but only a couple of weeks in I can understand a certain amount of denial and defensiveness on her part. What she did is wildly out of 44 years of character. So, I'm trying to put a (temporary) lid on my impatience (It ain't easy).

Plumber,

From what I've read about rekindling HS romances, it's really hard for WS's to fully turn away from the AP, whether it be an EA or a PA. It's new love, romantic and exciting, and for a woman in her 60s, rejuvenating. The expert on these, Nancy Kalish, writes, "The sexual hormonal highs of being in renewed contact with lost loves, plus anxiety/arousal hormones triggered by the secret affairs (including emotional affairs without sex) can lead to a craving for more and more contact, and withdrawal lows when there is no contact. A spousal relationship is more even-tempered; so how does a person addicted to these new highs decide to give up this rush and return to moderation? It's not easy!"

I think my wife's affair was a "rekindled" EA on the verge of a PA with an old "flame" with whom she had bonded at a crucial time in brain development during HS. And it will take some time to come down from the psycho-biological addictive high it gave her.

There is, however, a real worry. Kalish adds that, "Even when the reunions end badly, most people always love aspects of that old flame, that young love, from years ago. They might be able to accept that the lost love romance will never work for them, but that probably will not close all the old feelings. If someone is married or in a committed relationship, he or she may have to learn to live with those feelings, accept them as part of having a life's history, and dismiss them as 'old stuff' each time they come up. Not easy."

I'm hoping I can eventually break through to her and show her that the OM is really a pretty smarmy character, the kind of guy, if her developing adolescent psyche hadn't psycho-biologically bonded with him in HS, she'd otherwise recognize as a manipulative, sweet-talking jerk (which he is).

I don't know either the book or movie of "Bridges of Madison County." But in the 44 years before receiving that first email from her AP, my wife was a very sensible woman with a strong moral compass. Apart from the A she's been a very good person with strong character. That's why I think the affair was mainly an aberration of sorts, driven by apprehension about aging and a bio-psychologically-based magnetic attraction to this particular guy (and no other).

So my movie metaphor (and for me a somewhat worrisome one) is with "Casablanca." I see my wife in the Ingrid Bergman role, the AP as "Rick" (Humphrey Bogart), and me as Victor Laszlo. At the end of the film Ingrid Bergman leaves the man she really loves ("Rick") and remains with her husband (Victor Laszlo) out of a sense of duty. In our lives, the concluding scenario would be my wife leaving the AP in order to stay with me only out of a sense of duty.

That's not what I want. I hope she can eventually realize the juvenile (but rejuvenating) nature of her infatuation with the AP and rekindle the genuine, more seasoned love she's had for me in every year of our marriage except the last. As I've learned from this Forum, it won't be easy.

[This message edited by SeventyFour at 8:15 PM, March 9th (Friday)]

74

I had a couple of thoughts reading your last posts. One of them reminded me that I needed to reflect on my own emotions from the first few weeks of Dday.

When I reflected on how I was feeling right after dday, I understand you a little better. For example, I remember on Dday when my H told me there were 4 OW, I didn't know who they were. I knew 2 by name. I remember thinking at that time "I will never be able to ask and find out the other 2 OW names because if I have all of that info, I don't think I will be able to stay. It will be too much. So, I initially was content with only knowing 2 of the OW names. Not because my H didn't want to share that info with me, but because my mind could not process any more traumatic info at that moment.

So, as time went on, I digested the info I had. And then as I was ready for more info, I would ask him questions and he would answer them. I had to basically break down infidelity into bite size pieces so I wouldn't choke, so to speak.

In retrospect, I think that is where you are. Right now, you are still in shock. Understandably so, and the rest of us, who have been on this site and know how these stories go, are trying to push you ahead before you are ready. Just like one might try and make a baby walk before they are only learning to crawl but because walking comes so easy for us we forget that the baby needs to learn to crawl and then learn to stand up before learning to walk.

We need to remember that you are still needing bite size pieces of info in the early stages. Eventually you will process the info you have and then be emotionally ready to tackle some more.

If we are being honest, I don't see your wife as being a positive candidate for R....right now. That is not to say that once she gets past her withdrawel stage, she won't be. It just means right now there are red flags.

1. NC letter. --She shouldn't care about his feelings. The fact that she wants to "be nice" is a red flag. Your feelings should be her priority.

2. Not saying anything derogatory about OM -- Not that we want her spewing hate.....BUT, we do want to see her recognize the situation for what it was and that she was duped by the feelings of infatuation that were rekindled etc into thinking that he was something more than her current drug of choice.

3. "I'm still having to pull information out of her. Her demeanor is okay and she's somewhat supportive. But she's no longer volunteering very much and she doesn't really appreciate the full extent and depth of my pain. I'm hoping that doing more reading here will help her understand the deep and lasting pain of a BS. " --that one I pulled directly from your comment back to me.

This is a red flag. Somewhat supportive and is no longer volunteering info are not good. Here is why. If this is as remorseful as she is right now when your pain is fresh, imagine how unsympathetic she is going to be toward you in a year when "you should be over it."

Booyah had good insights. He hit it on the head when he said this: "Maybe your reluctance on the polygraph is it will reveal the truth of the situation and thus it will force your hand into doing the one thing YOU DON'T WANT TO DO (D and have to start over)?"

I think there is definite truth to that. But, I think it's still because you are in the "bite size" portions of infidelity. The shock stage. Once you come to terms with what has happened, and have fully processed it, then you won't be as scared of the answers you may discover from a parking lot confession or polygraph.

I also think RocketRaccoon was correct when he stated "Another thought is, she probably (rightly) thinks she knows you, and you will:

1. never file for D, so she is 'safe', as there will be no lasting consequences.

2. never push for the polygraph hard enough, so she is confident to tell you she will go through with hit (as she expects you to fold on her bluff)."

I understand that to you her year long EA was more difficult than a one night stand PA. BUT, wouldn't it be nice to confirm that it was just a possible one night stand PA instead of something larger? And, why not take your wife up on her offer to do a polygraph and allow that to be a way she can prove to you that she is safe, as TimelessLoss stated. It would be win-win for the both of you, unless there is more to the story. And if there is more to the story, wouldn't you want to know and save yourself future heartache?

I know right now it is unbelievably difficult. And it will be for a LONG,LONG time. But I promise you that there will be a day when you will be ready to really consider a polygraph. When you will be ready to take larger bites, so to speak, of infidelity. And that will be good.

I am glad you found Nancy Kalish. I think there is definite validity to what she writes.

I will add that the OM will almost certainly reach out to your wife in the future. Probably in about 6 months when he thinks the dust has settled. Now, if he is blocked by email and cell and social media, then he shouldn't be able to get through except via snail mail... but breaking NC is very common. I think it's chapter 3 of the cheater's handbook.

3/4 of the OW reached out to my H via his work phone where he couldn't block them. So, he would be very short with them on the phone and reiterate and tell them to not contact him again and then he would come home and tell me what happened. One of them found him in the parking lot as he was leaving work and confronted him. Again, he came home and told me. I would have never known about any of this but because he wanted to prove to me he was safe, he told me. Now they have gotten the hint and it's not an issue anymore but just be prepared. If she is a safe partner, she will tell you, even when you wouldn't find out on your own. That's how you know you have a truly remorseful partner.

Keep posting 74! We are here for you sometimes pushing you too far too fast, but we are rooting for you and hope that your wife will wake up and see what she stands to lose. As you are both around my parents age, and I must be around your children's age, I can tell you that I would want to know and would want the chance to offer help and support to both their parents.

Hope

Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond and provide information and advice about my situation. It's very helpful.

My wife and I had a rough but useful and productive weekend focusing on her A.

Plumber, I agree that she still has feelings for him, but think it's in part because our emotions do not turn on a dime. The increasingly intimate correspondence had gone on for a year. Intellectually she seems to be coming to grips with the damage she's done not only to me but also to her conception of herself. But fully weaning herself from him emotionally is going to take some time.

On the other hand, she's no longer so annoyed that I found out. She's never criticized me for breaking into her email and invading her privacy.

In fact a couple of times she's come close to thanking me for the "wake up call."

Rocket Racoon, at the moment I think she's too upset with the discrepancy between what she's done and her conception of herself as a basically good, honest person (the person she's been in the first 44 years of our marriage) to help me get over my anxiety. I don't think she's capable at this point of fully understanding it. But I'm reasonably confident that she eventually will.

Booyah, it's possible she's protective of Jack because to come down very hard on him would require coming down equally hard on herself as in a sense he is no more responsible for the A than she is.

latebloomer, Yes, before this happened I would say that if I went before she did, I'd be happy for her to remarry. And even now, I'd be happy for her to marry anyone else (as long as he was a decent person and got along well with our children and grandchildren). It's just this Jack guy that I don't want her to ever again be with or marry. That she would even consider seeing him would, I think, validate the A and the damage and injustice it has done to me. And besides, from what I've read, I think he's (pardon my French) an asshole.

Josiep, I fully agree that if people like you and I had known about this website things would likely have turned out differently for each of us. Neither my wife nor I knew anything about EAs or their prevalence. We knew nothing of the darkside of HS reunions or the way the internet contributes to the rekindling of HS love and ensuing intimate relationships. So there is a whole world out there that we were naively ignorant of. Had we known about the way the internet and HS reunions rekindle and inflame young love, I may have gone with her to the reunion. And if I had been planing to do so, the email correspondence leading up to would probably not have been so intimate or it may have been very short and matter-of-fact.

M1965, I took your advice and gave her the exercise you suggest. She responded with only one line: "He is not a nice human being and does not deserve to be treated nicely."

I am inclined to believe she is coming around to believing this intellectually. But it's going to be some time before her emotions catch up. The heart, I've been telling her, has its own logic. We love who we love. An EA, I think I've read, is an "affair of the heart," and her heart is still (and understandably for reasons I've written above) somewhat with him.

To you and others who have indicated that the NC letter she wrote and sent by herself two days after D-day was not, as it should have been, a unconditional no contact letter, I agree and I think she is slowly coming around to agree as well.

If only we'd read Shirley Glass's "Not 'Just Friends'" beforehand (but we would have thought we had no reason to read it!), we would have been aware of the mistake. She writes, "If the ending of the affair was ambiguous or uncertain, it's hard for the betrayed partner to be convinced that it's really over. Betrayed spouses often cannot let go until their partner has agreed to end the affair with conviction and finality. Unfaithful spouses may have to send unmistakable messages to their former lover in letters or phone calls saying that they have chosen to stay in the marriage 'for love' and not 'out of duty' or 'for the sake of the children'" (p. 319).

She will draft such a strong, unconditional message and show it to me for suggestions. So as not to encourage him in thinking that she cannot stop thinking about him, we are inclined not to send this strong, unconditional NC letter unless and until he tries to contact her again. If this happens the letter will go out immediately. Thanks to those who made suggestions about NC letters. We're inclined to go basically simple, direct, and impersonal.

TimelessLoss, Great idea about looking for photos of the two of them together on the reunion website. But there is no reunion website and my wife doesn't do Facebook. She took no photos (I checked her computer for them). When I asked about what he looked like she said he used to be slim but is now "heavy and lumbering."

What she talks most about now is how great he made her feel. She says he made her feel "perfect" and it was (literally) intoxicating. Shirley Glass (p. 7) says, "the lure of an affair is how the unfaithful partner is mirrored back through the adoring eyes of new love." My wife had become addicted to this. The OM knew what buttons to push. Glass says of "positive mirroring" that "we like how we see ourselves reflected in the other person's eyes. By contrast in our long-term relationships, our reflection is like a 5x makeup mirror in which our flaws are magnified. In a new romance, our reflection is like the rosy glow of an illuminated vanity mirror."

I think it's a good sign that she's starting to realize this intellectually, though again it's going to take time for the emotions to turn around as well.

Hope, as well as reading books and articles, my wife has been doing on lot of reading on this site and is gradually coming to understand and appreciate the extent and depth of pain experienced by me and other BS's.

Thanks for your continued support and encouragement.

[This message edited by SeventyFour at 8:00 PM, March 12th (Monday)]

You are doing well and it seems your WW is onboard with addressing her issues. I am about your age and attended my 50th HS reunion last year, and Inwas naively unaware of the impact of social media has on connecting with old (very old in my case) friends and flames. Strength to you and your wife as you strive to get out of infidelity.

I got lost in the writing... a polygraph?, really?, why... what's the point. You don't trust her anymore, so really is a polygraph going to do anything except humiliate you... :(

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I don't agree that 'they had sex'... alot of people can talk without sex. Who knows... the point is there's a hole in your marriage, and I'm sorry.

I don't have alot of advice, but if it were me... I certainly would not force a polygraph, what is it going to really do... the damage is already done :(

I got lost in the writing... a polygraph?, really?, why... what's the point. You don't trust her anymore, so really is a polygraph going to do anything except humiliate you... :(

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I don't agree that 'they had sex'... alot of people can talk without sex. Who knows... the point is there's a hole in your marriage, and I'm sorry.

I don't have alot of advice, but if it were me... I certainly would not force a polygraph, what is it going to really do... the damage is already done :(

I got lost in the writing... a polygraph?, really?, why... what's the point. You don't trust her anymore, so really is a polygraph going to do anything except humiliate you... :(

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I don't agree that 'they had sex'... alot of people can talk without sex. Who knows... the point is there's a hole in your marriage, and I'm sorry.

I don't have alot of advice, but if it were me... I certainly would not force a polygraph, what is it going to really do... the damage is already done :(

Booyah said.

Maybe your reluctance on the polygraph is it will reveal the truth of the situation and thus it will force your hand into doing the one thing YOU DON'T WANT TO DO (D and have to start over)?

I too think this may be clouding your judgement.

I feel like I HAVE to make a comment. I'm in the same ballpark as you in terms of length of marriage. I married VERY young. In fact I had to wait a year for it to be legal in the state I was living in at the time.

Poly's were starting to be used in the workplace... and I had to take one. It was horrible as at the time there were a lot of poorly trained polygraphers out and about. At the time I was working a two bit job that I hated. In fact the company I worked for had nothing that I would even wan't to steal... if I even leaned that way (which I don't).

The wife and I had many discussions about taking poly's before we got married and her response has always been that she would NEVER take one as she didn't believe in them. In recent years I've made a complete about-face about taking poly's especially as a tool for finding out the depths of an affair.

I have never shared my story here in SI, but I will share a little now as I believe it is relevent to you. After we got married there were a few incidences where I thought my wife may have cheated. There was NO SI or even an internet back then nor can I recall if there were any real counselors available. In any case I wouldn't know as I was too busy working to make ends meet.

Anyway I never had any proof so I just kind of FORCED myself to let it go. I can tell you for sure with absolutely NO uncertanty that this crap will stick to your ribs just like steak and potatoes. I've learned enough by reading here the last couple of years that I did everything wrong.

If what happened then was today I would have handled things very much differently. For starters there would would have been a poly on the table for me to even think about moving forward. The wife and I have had our ups and downs over the years (who doesn't) but I would be lying if I said I wasn't bothered by it all (even today). Get the poly done... not now but sometime in the very near future. That will give you time to give some thought about what you need to know. DON'T be me. You don't want to live out your remaining years with this crap always lurking in the back of your mind coming to the forefront at inopportune times. Trust me... this sh*t will never go away by itself without the added effort of good communication and a passed poly for a baseline.

I got lost in the writing... a polygraph?, really?, why... what's the point. You don't trust her anymore, so really is a polygraph going to do anything except humiliate you... :(

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I don't agree that 'they had sex'... alot of people can talk without sex. Who knows... the point is there's a hole in your marriage, and I'm sorry.

I don't have alot of advice, but if it were me... I certainly would not force a polygraph, what is it going to really do... the damage is already done :(

The point of the Polygraph is to:

1. Get full information as to what 74 is dealing with.

2. To establish whether she is still lying to him even after all her reading.

You cannot reconcile without knowing what happened and whether she is telling the truth now. It will eat away at you and undermine any attempt at reconciliation.

Apart from telling you the truth, she needs to start empathising with you and not him. To me a revised NC letter is a must to enable you to move forward.

She also needs to show you that she sees who he really is and not who she romantised he was.

I think you are working from fear and I would normally strongly be opposed to that. You can never nice a wayward back if they have not confessed in the first place. They need to see the consequences of their actions.

However, in your situation I think it is the exception that proves the rule, so coaxing her back may be the safest option if you are not prepared to lose the marriage to win the marriage at your time of life.

What your wife did was sad but it was also despicable. If she does not start showing true remorse soon, you may well have to divorce or live in a zombie marriage unfortunately. Having said that I do think the signs are promising, so good luck.

The point of the Polygraph is to:

2. To establish whether she is still lying to him even after all her reading.

Isn't the fact that you are needing a polygraph enough to know what you are dealing with? The trust is gone, what's left.

The poly is another tool. It's used for a lot of things. What other tools are there - electronic trails, how to recover deleted texts, etc., VARs, PIs and the list goes on.

How many people here on SI and out in the general population felt they had R'd but found out the adultery had gone deeper underground and never ended? Not an insignificant number. How many people here had TT stretched over a long time until it became too much?

The WS is a person who lied convincingly. Suddenly one should take them at their word. If you are trying to decide if R is a possibility you need to think your WS has become completely open, honest and transparent. How do you do that - just ask them and believe them?

There's such a thing as parking lot confessions. Sudden memory breakthroughs. There's also the question of whether there were any other dalliances in the marriage. It seems from the stories here on SI that even very busy people can find the time for illicit behavior.

The polygraph is another tool to help determine the facts and make a decision that affects the rest of one's life. Are they 100% reliable? Apparently not. Do I give a shit if they aren't? Not one fucking bit.

The polygraph, again, is another tool to use to make a decision about the rest of your life. It's a small investment compared to the rest of your life. I find the hard stance against a poly suspicious and questionable.

You do what you need to do to get out of adultery and to ensure you are. You collect what information you need to make difficult decisions about the rest of your life. You make as few life altering decisions when very emotional as you can. You give yourself time to collect information, observe behaviour, be rational, weigh the pros and cons and make a decision.

Disclaimer: I had WW do a poly. I also did a lot of other detective work. I'm 66 years old and married 40 years when we separated. We separated 4 years after DDay1. I desperately wanted the opportunity to try to R. I could have if I would just have gotten over it - as in rugsweep - let it all die down in time.

74, just because you are 74 doesn't mean you have to rugsweep and THE FACT THAT SHE IS 'STILL GETTING OVER THIS MAN' should speak volumes

Hi 74

I have read through your thread and would like to say how sorry I am that you are facing this terrible ordeal at this time of your life and marriage.

I personally do not think she had sex with him, i think it was more about lost youth and excitement.

What she has done is still so very wrong, but 48 years is an awful lot to give up on without a second chance.

I would insist that she give you all her passwords and that you two have a break away together on neutral territory to try to work through this and spend quality time together. It may also help you to decide whether it is worth staying together.

If you are both on holiday away with no access or use of email/phones etc, I think you will be able to tell whether she is happy being with you and you her, or whether something is missing (ie OM)

It must be very hard to be in the house where there is pain at the moment, no trust, access to emails etc. It is a recipe for disaster and a wound being picked open daily.

Take her somewhere nice unlike ole 'spendy' with his pathetic, sad behaviour and try to work on rekindling that love and trust.

As for doing a polygraph, is it really important in the greater scheme of things? will it change anything realistically? If you are considering making this marriage work, then in my opinion having all the details is not always necessary and may serve only to cause you more pain and grief. The only thing you need to be certain of is that she is truly remorseful and that she has totally ceased all contact with him as a result.

That is why I say use some of that money you have and intend to leave to your kids and the two of you spend it on yourselves right here and now when you need and deserve it. It may be the best investment you make either way. I am convinced that a week or two away together with no outside contact or intereferance will provide you with the answers you need and deserve.

What do you have to lose since you are already hurt and confused? at worst you can walk away knowing you gave her and your marriage that second chance, at best your marriage could go on to be even better and more solid than before. I'd say the money is better spent on that than a polygraph and lawyers at this stage.

Good luck and stay positive.

A suggestion concerning your comments about your Will.

If you D, your assets will be divided in it. But you would want to change your Will to leave everything you have remaining to your kids.

If you don't D, then presumably an acceptable R has occurred.

In that situation, if you die first I presume you don't want to leave her struggling financially in old age but don't want the OM to benefit greatly from your life's labor. So a compromise is this. Have your attorney draft a will and a trust. The Will puts all of your assets into a Trust. The Trust pays out a regular stream of income to your W to provide for her living expenses but forbids payout of any amount of the principal (except, perhaps, in certain situations that you specify such as major medical expenses). When she dies the Trust pays out its entire contents to the children.

While this set up would allow the OM to benefit to the extent of her having an income for living expenses that he might share in, it doesn't allow for any major things like extravagant vacations or a vacation house or large gifts or paying off his debts. You could even name the children as Trustees (with the power to block payout of principal except for those emergencies you have specifically identified in the Trust) without having to tell them the background if you didn't want to.

74 - I agree about the polygraph. Use it as a tool to go forward, not in a negative way. It's just one more piece to go forward to heal as it seems you are wanting to do. You say you are an avid researcher. Have you really checked out the OM to see his marital status, his background on divorces, etc? This is something he may do a lot of, connecting with 'old loves.'

Check him out. But book that poly. You won't be sorry. I hope the results would be she's telling the truth but I strongly doubt it. Did she spend the night at the hotel? Have you asked her that? Or did she just 'visit?' Good luck.

Your wife does not seem to have much empathy for the pain she has caused you.

Thinking about the OM with feelings of affection means the affair is still alive, even though they are not communicating. She is keeping it going in her heart. The way she ended communications with him (if she did end it) shows that she would like to continue, but she fears the consequences. She does not have room in her heart for you.

For you to heal, she has to show you that she loves you and is not just choosing you because she feels financially trapped or because she fears the anger of other family members if the marriage ends because of her affair.

I agree that the old marriage is now dead, but she is nowhere near ready to be part of a new marriage to you. Her heart (pun intended) would not be in it since it belongs to OM.