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Any of the ones that "got it" or old timers have a better way to explain this?

We seem to have a lot of waywards stuck in the shame and guilt stage at the same time. Just lost in being worthless and nothing ever getting better or changing. Many just want to run away from their reflections. Any posts or words of advice you can put together? I tried to explain that if you just sit in it and pick it apart and don't run, one day you wake up and that isn't there anymore. I just don't know how to explain it well. The shame and guilt is just not a factor anymore because- I don't know how to explain it. I just feel like an old man looking at puppies chasing their tails. I know I went through that stage, but it was just so long ago and I really don't remember really getting lost or stuck. I think I was pretty practical about it and I was too determined to change and earn my right to be good father and husband. Is it gone because we "got it"? Hit true "remorse"? or because we "owned it"?

Yeah, that’s a tough one. For me it’s been realizing it’s not productive for me, my h, or our process. So it’s almost like practicing staying out of it? Part of embracing yourself and understanding self love is what was missing in the first place. I think it’s a natural reaction to seeing the pain you put another human being in, and difficult to keep at bay at times. But it’s in many ways a pity party and putting your own selfish feelings ahead of what your spouse is feeling.

I think it’s important to have remorse, but there is a balance there of knowing you are doing your best everyday and taking some pride in that.

Still struggle with it some days but getting to a stage of humility is better for me and easier for my husband to have more freedom in his healing. Makes him feel less worried about how I will respond as he is processing something. You have to be their rock.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:03 PM, April 16th (Monday)]

I think it has a lot to do with how their BS is doing that prevents them wanting to change or feel like they are stuck. I see slot of this on here also and thought of making a post. I really want to tell WS that it does get better as long as you keep doing the work. I think a lot want to see the light at the end of the tunnel with it only being 6 months, a year or even two years out. They want that instead fix. I think the shame and guilt gets to them because their spouse is still feeling a certain way and it just seems hopeless. I have told a lot time and patients is the key. It truly is the key. Keep going, keep fighting. Keep working on you. I know and understand how it feels to feel like nothing matters because of how my H was once feeling. I feel like we are in a better spot now but it took a lot of work on my end to make that happen. It pays off doing the heavy lifting. There is hope. Trust me I know I was once there with this will never work or there is no digging out of this hole. I was wrong. We are digging out and not stopping.

All BS will have there own progress. They will all have different ways of how and how long but the WS just needs to keep on trying. We all can express this and tell them we know but I think they have to be willing to overcome that feelin for themselves and keep doing the work. They see no hope and things won’t get better because of the sition they are in. I didn’t know...sometimes I think WS have too high expectation with their BS. Thinking they should be better or healed only a certain time out.

One of the things that help me was letting go out the outcome of the M. I am committed to my H no matter what. Even if he feels unsure or wants to leave me one day I didn’t tell myself ok we are done whatever....No I kept going....I knew If my H wanted a D he would go file. He always come home. Even when he said he was not going too he still did. I needed to be committed and changed my thinking. I need to prove myself each time I was here to stay. It’s all about changing your thinking and that’s always easlier said then done. It’s determination and self-discipline to make the choice no what what your BS says or does They will have have their ups and down. You neee to be the rock when they seem so unsure or don’t know what the hell is going on. It takes a lot to overcome but it can be done.

[This message edited by godheals at 6:23 PM, April 16th (Monday)]

Here’s one, why would a WS question their BS progress when indeed the WS can’t make progress themselves? How does one think their BS will heal or get better when your the one not getting there yourself? How does a BS feel when they see that a WS can’t look past their shame and get better, how are they suppose to get better themselves? Sometimes that don’t leave the BS more encouragement seeing their falling apart from their actions. You can’t be stuck in the shame and guilt thinking there is no hope when your BS is still trying to process everything. You can’t see it why should your BS?

You want the change YOU be the change. You want to see the change YOU be the change. You want your BS to heal YOU work on yourself and get past the shame. As much as a WA can’t see or feel no hope their BS is feeling that 100 times as much. Be the hope. Be the change. Be difference. One day your BS can look at you and think wow I think I can do this!

It all starts with YOU! And it keeps going with YOU....

Ah, gotta love the shame/guilt cycle, our oldest, dearest friend, the one that likely got us in trouble in the first place...

I think, to some degree, that the shame can be good (and yes, I am very cautious in saying that) because it is a tool and a motivator for change. But in much the same way that morphine is a good tool for managing pain but you need to be cautious to not get addicted, shame can motivate you but you can also get lost in it.

They say that shame = "I'm a bad person", while guilt = "I did a bad thing, but it does not define me". I think that's a good starting place to understand shame, and to plan on how to get out of that never-ending loop.

Shame is what we were missing during the affair. We had no shame. Shame might have stopped us. If we have it now, that's a step in the right direction. It at least means you are seeing you did something wrong and feel badly about it. If you can't understand what you did wrong and why it was wrong then fixing it will be a lot harder.

In order to get past shame however, we need to realize that it buys us nothing. Here's the thing.

Shame = "I am a bad person, at my core. It is who I am. It is what I will always be. I will never be forgiven. I will never be worthy. I will die old and alone and unloved and I deserve nothing more".

Is that who you WANT to be? Is that the outcome you desire?

For many WS's, while it is not what they want, they lack self-love and self-value to the point where they actually believe they are intrinsically unworthy of love or forgiveness, or incapable of being anything more or different than they are and always have been. ALL of this is bullshit that we tell ourselves to fit the paradigm of who we are. For me, and I think for most others, it is all rooted in FEAR and PAIN. I don't care how wonderful or horrible your life is/was, no one in this world escapes without their unfair share of pain and fear. Don't ever compare pain. It doesn't work that way. Often you will hear the phrase, "Well, I had a shitty childhood too, but I didn't...<whatever you did>". Ignore them. Their life isn't your life, and they have issues you don't have. No one is an angel, no one is without sin, everyone has regrets. So don't be bullied into believing that you are somehow a bad person for being flawed. You are a human being. Unless you are a psychopath or serial killer, odds are you are just a very broken person who would like to be a better person. So be a better person.

Guilt = "I did a bad thing, and other people got hurt as a result. I am not always a bad person however. I did a bad thing because something within me allowed me to compromise my morals and values, to put my self before others, and allowed me to justify my actions when I knew they were wrong. There are times in my life when I do good things, moral things, decent, unselfish and caring things too. Because I am capable of decency and love, I know I am not fundamentally flawed. I just need to improve the parts of me I don't like."

This is really the key. You need to know that you still have value. That even though you did something horrible and hurt people who didn't deserve it, you do still have value, and are deserving of love, from yourself and others. You need to know that you can ALWAYS CHOOSE TO BE A BETTER PERSON, and while that will never undo the past, it will go a long way towards preventing future damage, and to some degree, it actually gives dignity back to the people you hurt.

Think about this. During the affair, you lied, you betrayed, you deceived and dismissed your spouse or partner. Most BS's will tell you that it is the worst thing you could have ever have done to them. But in my opinion, there is one thing left that you can do that will hurt your spouse even more, and will continue to hurt them forever... you can NOT give a shit. You can NOT try. You can just stay the same POS that hurt them and continue to be that POS for the rest of your life, the same sad little puppy who can't even make an effort, a real effort, to do what they can to clean up their mess and prevent it from happening again. It is just my opinion, but THAT is the worst thing you could do to them. So don't do that. Don't be that person.

Living in the shame spiral means that you are being that person. The one who twists the knife in their spouses back deeper and harder than ever before simply by remaining the person who hurt them. The one question every BS asks themself is "Did my spouse ever really love me in the first place?" When you give up and live in the shame spiral, your answer to them is a resounding, "No, I never really loved you, nor was I capable of loving anyone, and I will never change". If you'd like to give your spouse a reason to leave and yourself a reason to be dead inside, this is the path to take.

If however you want to give your marriage and your life every possible shot, stop living a life feeling as if you are the ultimate loser, have a reason and a purpose to get up in the morning, and actually see and experience happiness again in your life, then you need to get out of the shame spiral and get on to fixing those things in your life that you don't want.

The first thing every WS seems to ask (myself included) is "How do I do that? How do I fix my own shit?" And if someone has some concrete ideas on that, I'd love to hear them. Until there, here is what I'm doing, and it is helping to some degree (not perfect, but not nothing).

1) Identify what you don't like. For me, some really easy ones were the things I did during the affair. I don't like being a liar. I don't like being untrustworthy. At some point, you need to just make a decision about how you are going to handle things. Don't lie. Don't decieve. I started out by trying to be as honest as I could, in everything. If the check wasn't in the mail, I said so. If those jeans make your ass look fat, I tell you. If I ate the last cookie you asked me not to eat, I fess up and suffer the consequences. Just... be who you want to be. For some things, it is simply a matter of doing it.

2) Dig deep - ask your 5-year-old self who you are. Who did you want to be as a kid? Did you ever say, "I want to be a liar and a cheater when I grow up?" Probably not. I hope not. Did you want to be a hero? Did you want to be a parent? Did you want to be someone special? How about just an honest, decent and respectful person? BE the person your 5 year old self always wanted to be.

3) Model yourself after someone you respect, and hang around people that act like you want to be. If you hang around with druggies, you are more likely to be a druggie. If you hang around with guys that demean women, your likely to do so too. If you hang around people who love their spouses and sacrifice for their kids and families, you are more likely to be that person as well. If you read about and socialize with people who live lives that you admire and respect, then that will become your goal. No one is perfect, that's okay. It doesn't mean you can't aim high however.

4) Get to know yourself. Read a little Brene Brown and Pema Chodron. Join a yoga class or practice mindfulness. Volunteer at your church or kids school. Get a hobby, work on a career you want. Whatever you do, do so with open eyes. See yourself for who you really are. WS's have so much bullshit built up inside themselves that it takes a while to dig it all out and get past it to the truth, and that takes time and effort. Don't rush it, but don't give up on it either.

5) Work on empathy. Every single day, try to imagine how other people think and feel. Acknowledge their feelings, relate to them. If you don't know what's going on with them, ask. Empathy is hard especially when you've been selfish for so long. (I'm still working on it!) Simple phrases such as , "That must be frustrating for you", or "You must have been really glad when that happened", or "You seem distracted. What's going on?" can really put you in touch with others. Try every day to get out of your own head and into other people's lives.

6) Don't let fear and doubt stop you. Again, something I need to work on. But it's the truth. Right now your spouse doesn't believe a word you say or a thing you do, and that can be very hurtful and demoralizing. And yeah, we brought it on ourselves and deserve that. But that's not a reason to not try. If you love your spouse, tell them. Maybe it take saying that 1000 times before they start to believe you. Maybe a million. So you better get started. Don't let fear of trying stop you, and don't let failing stop you. See each mistake as a learning opportunity. Now you know what doesn't work. Now you were reminded of a place in your life that you need to work on. I know, it can be frustrating, and sometimes we look and think, "I'll never change fast enough to save my relationship", and that might be true. I'm sorry about that. Consequences suck, but they are what they are. It's not a reason to quit or not try.

7) Some words of wisdom my wife gave to me. "Who do you want to be? If you were to die tomorrow, what would you want people to think about you? Would you want them to say, "He had his demons, and they got the better of him"? Or would you rather they say, "He made some bad mistakes in life, but he sure worked hard to overcome them and be a better person"?

8) Put more effort into fixing your relationship than you did tearing it apart. Look, during your affair, you put effort into doing it. Each affair is slightly different, but odds are that you made time to write the AP, or see them. You met up somewhere, you covered it up, you made up lies, you held secrets, you argued with your spouse, and so on... it was all shitty effort, but it was effort. Put more effort into saving your marriage and yourself than you did in the affair. Put yourself and your spouse and your marriage first, and make them them a higher priority than you made your AP and the affair.

That's all I've got at the moment. Keep coming back to SI, keep asking for help. You are NOT alone and don't listen to those who come on here complaining that everyone is mean to them, and don't they deserve a hug? Yeah, everyone deserves a hug, but not from the people they just stabbed in the back, and not from the people that are here to give you some hard, honest truth and 2x4's. Can people be mean? Sometimes. But most of the time, what they are being is HONEST. When it hurts the most is when you need to listen the hardest, and do a little introspection. The truth stings, but it also will free you. Stop doing things that you are ashamed of, and you will stop being ashamed. Stop doing things that are dishonest and deceitful, and you will need to hide anything or be ashamed of your actions. Do your best in all things and you will never regret not having tried harder. It is really that simple, and yet that hard.

DD,

Great post. Inspirational, true, motivating and saturated in reality and common sense.

I particularly like your definitions and impact of Shame and Guilt.

They say that shame = "I'm a bad person", while guilt = "I did a bad thing, but it does not define me". I think that's a good starting place to understand shame, and to plan on how to get out of that never-ending loop.

Shame is what we were missing during the affair. We had no shame. Shame might have stopped us. If we have it now, that's a step in the right direction. It at least means you are seeing you did something wrong and feel badly about it. If you can't understand what you did wrong and why it was wrong then fixing it will be a lot harder.

In order to get past shame however, we need to realize that it buys us nothing. Here's the thing.

Shame = "I am a bad person, at my core. It is who I am. It is what I will always be. I will never be forgiven. I will never be worthy. I will die old and alone and unloved and I deserve nothing more".

Is that who you WANT to be? Is that the outcome you desire?

Both are necessary. Shame for what we (I) did, will or should prevent future recidivism. Guilt over what we (I) did should inform a rebuilding of character, a new direction and through effort and grace; a reformed and enhanced person.

But as you rightly point out, Shame in which we accept our actions as the only definition of self, could lead to spirals, reignite bad patterns and lead to further violence and betrayal. Shame and depression are closely linked.

Depression can be incited, by as you mention, child hood factors, though they are largely excuses used to justify an attitude or present situation. Angst, envy, fear or other emotions may flow from this as well.

The 5 year old self (dreams); the role model; the person who lives in the reality of the 5 senses - all great advice to those of us who are trying to get better.

I have copied your post and intend to re-read it in the future.

Thanks

Godheals and Hikingout, thanks for the replies but it isn't really what I was going for. Not about the BS and their healing journey, though as you state if they do heal faster it will help alleviate some shame and guilt.

Daddydom spot on.

I was referring more to the WS facing themselves. Part of the owning it process. We should be in pain. We should spend time feeling the guilt and shame. Just not wallow in it. To me it meant facing and sitting in it, till it held no power over me anymore. It was productive to sit and face with who I had become and what I did. Just not to be sitting in it with an outlook of despair. Just not to be running from it with the outlook that to feel like shit for a while wasn't self love. Once you accept yourself and all your faults (self love) you can choose to dissect those faults and change the ones that are counterproductive to your happiness or are harmful to the people around you. Otherwise, you just rugsweep and nothing about your true motivations for cheating change. Godheals and Hikingout you make good points about choosing to embrace yourselves

but there is a balance there of knowing you are doing your best everyday and taking some pride in that.

which is important when you choose to change and not just rugsweep so you don't wallow. Taking pride in facing it and choosing the harder painful path.

Maybe where some are stuck is that they aren't in that balance. They can't sit in it and use it to move forward in a better way. Instead they wallow with despair or run from it because they feel that any amount of sitting is wallowing and too much pain to move on. IMO you need to sit with it to truly change. With an outlook that you can learn from it. Not allowing the pain, shame, guilt, fear, anger get the better of you.

That's all I've got at the moment. Keep coming back to SI, keep asking for help. You are NOT alone and don't listen to those who come on here complaining that everyone is mean to them, and don't they deserve a hug? Yeah, everyone deserves a hug, but not from the people they just stabbed in the back, and not from the people that are here to give you some hard, honest truth and 2x4's. Can people be mean? Sometimes. But most of the time, what they are being is HONEST. When it hurts the most is when you need to listen the hardest, and do a little introspection. The truth stings, but it also will free you. Stop doing things that you are ashamed of, and you will stop being ashamed. Stop doing things that are dishonest and deceitful, and you will need to hide anything or be ashamed of your actions. Do your best in all things and you will never regret not having tried harder. It is really that simple, and yet that hard.

Agree. Being a wayward here is a fine line. Sure, you feel like shit and you too are overwhelmed and in pain. But, this is the time to step up your game and be uncomfortable. This is the time to step away from the pampering of an AP. This is the time to put on your big boy and big girl pants. In some cases, IMO I see many times waywards looking for that validation and compassion that they are in withdrawal from that the AP was giving them. Expecting fellow waywards to understand and fill in that gap. It is one thing to have empathy and compassion for waywards hurting from our shared experiences. It is another thing to expect another to take up the role of an absent AP. It sucks, it is hard, and it hurts. We have all been there. But, now is the time to start learning how to do it the hard way. Now is the time to start being enough for yourself. Now is the time to take the lead and initiative, instead of being dependent on others to make you feel good. This is the time to still move even when compassion and empathy are missing from a BS. Where was compassion and empathy when we fucked them over? Time to swallow our own medicine and choose to make progress.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 9:41 AM, April 17th (Tuesday)]

Just discussing this with my wife. She brought up a good point about when we get through guilt and shame. We have faced it when we put it to the side and when we put it to the side and there is no fear. If you choose not to look at it out of fear, then you are running and you haven't done the work. I examined that and she is right. I stopped feeling fear and that is when I know I moved beyond it. That didn't define me anymore. Hope that helps some of you stuck right now and gives you hope that it doesn't last forever. Just bite the bullet and face it.

I understand what your looking for here now.

[This message edited by godheals at 4:30 PM, April 17th (Tuesday)]

@Zugzwang

Interesting post - you mentioned 'fear' and how that informed shame and guilt - or did you mean the fear of being shamed and guilty? I might have missed the real meaning of the word fear.

For some of us fear does not enter. Hedonistic selfishness and violence to appease our egos are the main drivers of cheating. Once caught, shame and guilt then appear. First guilt, then slowly shame shows up. Shame at being a liar, dishonest and a violent offender. Guilt at being caught out. But no fear really.

Many here discuss fear and for some of us it is hard to understand how fear can motivate one to cheat, or be a result of the same. In my case it is a question of selfish gluttony and not possessing any empathy or insight into what the actions will do to others. That is stupidity and mindlessness but not fear.

Just curious how you define your fear.

Thanks

fear of pain from shame and guilt after Dday. The reason why many run instead of face the shame and guilt and who they became or always were. I am not talking about the driving force to cheat. I am talking about how some get stuck afterward or never even try to change but rugsweep altogether after Dday.

DaddyDom, Every WS struggling with this should read your post. It was wonderful and so right.

I’m someone who’s gone through it and hasn't completely overcome it yet.

For a WS who is struggling with this, at the early stages it’s important to know in your head that you’re dealing with these feelings of shame, but that you’re also doing something to counteract them. What I mean is that not having feelings of shame isn’t a snap of your fingers kind of thing. It takes time. That’s okay. As long as you keep working on those feelings and you don’t let it get you down to a point where you give up on yourself and your BS.

I’ve had a variation of this conversation in my head. “I’m evil. I’m a horrible mother. What kind of person does what I did? My BH hates me and my children hate me. How could anyone love me? How can my BH stand the sight of me? I let another man (here’s where I’d get very graphic and describe different sexual acts I did. It made me feel worse and fed on itself like a downward spiral). What’s the point of doing anything? Nothings going to change. My mother was right, I’m worthless.”

It was a lot more detailed and longer, but the parts that are important are how I would go from the act defining me as a person and the total of who I am to then giving up. Because if I truly am Satan reincarnated, then honestly might as well give up, right?

So IC sessions should focus on this. Mantra’s, positive reinforcement, and exercises that are focused on changing your perspective from shame to guilt. They help a lot. And it’s important because even if you don’t always succeed at fighting those feelings you’ll have done it enough times to know that you can and that they don’t control you.

It will also give you hope. Every time you beat it is a victory. Shame is a way to focus on you for the wrong reasons instead of on the real work to make yourself a safer partner for your BS. When you don’t let it have a hold over you, you see things clearer. Your BS will see that you’re not having a pity party and wallowing in yourself. You’ll focus on what’s important.

And that’s the last thing that helped me when those feelings overwhelm you. Find something to anchor you. My IC told me this early when I’d go through my whole speech of how it’s all hopeless and I’m a lost cause. She said okay, let’s say you’re right, you’re evil. You don’t deserve anything. What about your children? Do they deserve a mother that’s there for them? How about your husband? Does he deserve having someone who can run the house and take care of the kids while he’s going through his feelings and dealing with this? Even if you’re just a glorified maid and nanny, don’t they deserve that? Focus on that.

So I did. I held onto that. And those actions of me giving to them and doing for them helped me inside. My actions retired my brain a bit to make me see I’m more than just the woman that cheated on my husband. By itself it wasn’t enough, but it helped. And that plus the work I put in with my IC on shame allowed me to fight it. And once I saw I could fight it, it gave me the strength to keep going. I don’t always win, but I know I can win.

My biggest problem was image management. For years I didn't want to face who I was. I wanted my BH to see me the way he used to see me. I tried to make this happen by making excuses. Tried to do some version of manipulation to turn back the hands of time. Shame was in control.

At some point I stopped trying to control the outcome. Stopped trying to control how my BH saw me. I stood tall, in full daylight and owned it. All of it. Oh we still fought. He still yelled at me. I yelled back. This wasn't some instantaneous "got it" moment.

I needed meds to calm me down. It was rough for a while. It's still rough sometimes. BH has stopped yelling. He's no longer angry at me. Shame still lingers but I have meds for that too if it gets bad enough to put me down.

Recently I felt shame and it hit me hard. I lost touch with reality (again). I sat on the couch until 2am thinking I don't even deserve a bed. My plan was to spend all night there as some sort of punishment for myself. Thankfully I realized I needed those meds and after they kicked in I began to think rationally. The answer was simply to go to bed.

I stood tall, in full daylight and owned it.

I remember sitting on the floor crying like a 4yr old and just spilling my guts out and admitting the truths (of who I was and all my fears) to her and myself. A broken man. Then, she hugged me. Said we can do this together. I was in darkness and then I stood and I was in light. Then, I no longer cared about the man I was before. Nothing left to protect. It was rotten to the core. I wish it didn't take me two years to see that I was protecting nothing.