SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The way you say she's acting, it wouldn't surprise me if she was still in the A.

Bingo. She's well in the fog, contact is most likely ongoing.

As annb, posted don't be like i was.

The OMs wife actually caught my WW and her WH texting. Of course she couldn't be bothered to tell me about it.

[This message edited by Wool94 at 7:10 AM, November 22nd (Thursday)]

Everything I write below is based on your having the BEST chance of reconciling your marriage. As I shared in my earlier post there is a lot of collective wisdom. Please – since you don’t really have better options – try to take the following as facts. As truths.

NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING you did or did not do explains or justifies her DECISSION to cheat.

She can blame you endlessly and her blame might have grounds as to the status of your marriage, but it doesn’t justify her decision to cheat. To use a comparison: Imagine a rapist claiming he had to rape his victim because her perfume turned him on. Or the murderer that shot his victim because they argued over football. The action isn’t correct for the occasion.

When she says she had to chat with OM because you didn’t take out the garbage… No. Not valid. She might have every right to demand change, but NO RIGHT to cheat.

The ONLY WAY to reconcile a marriage from infidelity is from a base of truth and acknowledgement. If she doesn’t acknowledge what happened is an affair and if you don’t feel safe that you know it’s total extent you can’t reconcile.

There are instances where former affair partners are still in contact. Generally, it’s work-contact or where AP’s are linked in some way by family. But… it’s extremely rare and it will immensely impact reconciliation.

I have this theory: If you have a range from 0 – 10 on the chances of reconciling, with 0 being the best score and 10 being impossible then the points multiply rather than add up. If ongoing contact (even non-infidelity contact) was 5 points and not telling the other betrayed spouse was 3 points then your score isn’t 8 out of 10, but rather 3 x 5 = 15.

Add to that your WW attitude. That might score 4 so the total score is 3 x 5 x 4 = 60.

If 10 is impossible then obviously 60 is beyond impossible.

Best way to get the number down to a manageable level is by removing numbers from the equation.

Go back to the wording I used for telling OMW. I never say there is or was an affair. It’s simply statements based on what your wife has already admitted. Let OMW know and you have already changed the equation from 60 to 20. Still higher than 10, but lower than 60.

That won’t impact your WW attitude too much though and it won’t necessarily impact the NC factor. It might though… Now OM has NO REASON whatsoever to leave the present management of kids’ club. If his wife is brandishing divorce or demanding NC or whatever… that might change. It might change in that he quits, doesn’t work when your WW is there or maybe even (if he has the power) gets your wife fired. Whatever. End-result might be the NC that is needed.

Then there is your WW attitude and not knowing the truth…

Sometimes the best response to a threat or complaints is simply to call them out.

I was once called to a customer site where the customer was ranting that he didn’t believe my technicians could fix a problem and that he refused to be invoiced for their work. He stated this repeatedly, so I told my technicians to pack up. The customer chased us to the car-park asking if we had fixed the issue. I told him that I really didn’t see a need to even try because (a) he didn’t have any belief we were capable and (b) even if we fixed the issue he had notified us he wouldn’t pay for the work. Customer calmed down, problem fixed, and invoice paid.

I’m going to suggest a comparable approach. Keep in mind what you are going for here. IF your wife doesn’t see this correctly and IF you try to reconcile from anything other than infidelity and IF she’s in contact with the OM and IF they are free to simply hide their affair better… then it’s not as if you are risking losing anything. You have already lost…

So, when your WW makes some claim:

“I had to cheat because I don’t love you”

Your stock reply: “I am sorry that you feel that way. You are free to see OM or whatever might make you feel loved. But not as my wife. I accept losing our marriage because it definitely beats living in infidelity.”

“I have been unhappy for a long time”

“I am sorry that you feel that way. You are free to see OM or whatever might make you happy. But not as my wife. I accept losing our marriage because it definitely beats living in infidelity.”

“You don’t do your share of work at home”

“I am sorry that you feel that way. We could have addressed that as a couple but instead you decided to have an affair. You are free to see OM or whatever you think might improve that situation. But not as my wife. I accept losing our marriage because it definitely beats living in infidelity.”

If she asks, then no – you don’t WANT the marriage to be over. You think you two could work things out. But not if she is so defensive, so blind to the fact she had an affair and that the normal, natural consequences of infidelity require serious change from her.

Do this and the equation might remain at 20 (4x5). But it might remove the 4 leaving you at a more manageable 5. Considering that all stakeholders are in the know and probably both your WW and OM are trying to cease contact that 5 might even drop down a bit.

To me it’s a no-brainer. You have the option of continuing to do what you are doing and AT BEST this affair is over. But you have a non-remorseful wife that still thinks it’s OK to seek validation outside the marriage. A wife that still thinks you made her must cheat. A wife that is in constant contact with her OM. A wife that thinks she won infidelity. You could be semi-happy. I guess you could not worry about her lunches and why she’s running late and whom she’s thinking about…

Or you have the option to push for either the BEST marriage EVER if you two do REAL reconciliation OR the chance to get out of this marriage if your wife insists infidelity is fine. For me the latter two options are acceptable, the first is something I wouldn’t wish on anyone.

You both should read: Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

It will save you both a lot of wasted time debating what is appropriate.

After just the first 10 pages it will be clear to her that her behavior is/was inappropriate (backed up by studies etc).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 8:52 AM, November 22nd (Thursday)]

Even her attitude now - no affection, no apologies, no emotion, no effort, constant attacking me back, no understanding what I am feeling, more bothered about what I am doing.

Why is this?

She thinks she's in love with the OM. She's addicted to his attention and is unable/unwilling to stop thinking about him. She most likely will resume contact (if she hasn't already).

And she's justifying her behavior and feelings by attacking you and her marriage.

Her affair has gone a lot farther (at least in her head/emotionally) than you initially thought.

You can not over react! You can't 'nice' her back or reason with her. You must take this very seriously and use every (every!!) action and strategy available.

- NC

- expose expose expose to everyone!

- check for STDs (they kissed ...maybe more)

- consult with your attorney (it makes a statement)

- full transparency with social media and full accountability regarding her time & location

IMO the sooner you serve her with D the sooner her actions are characterized for what they are: infidelity. And she has time before D is final to prove she's remorseful and a safe partner.

You've had some really good responses that I agree wholeheartedly with.

You've had the arguments about informing the OBS. It assists in ending the A. It is also what a decent human would do for another. You were bothered by something (gut feeling) to the extent you discovered them. The OBS could be living in anxiety because her gut is telling her the same but she hasn't been able to find anything out. Most here on SI (not all) had those feeling of something being off (gut, unease). I wish someone would have told me. My WW denied, swore before God, accused me of cheating if I thought she was, etc. Please tell the OBS. It's up to her what she does with the info. Don't tell your WW you are going to do it.

There are so many points on here by people who've lived through all of this and have great insight. They are people who have R'd and D'd. All want what is best for you regardless of the choice you make and all want you to be out of adultery.

There is one point made by Buster that I will challenge. It's a very minor one. I disagree that marital issues are shared 50:50. I believe there is sharing but not necessarily equal. I also have an opinion that some portion of marital issues come with the WS and are part of the baggage that allows them to break marital vows. I agree fully that the A is 100% on your WW.

This is a violent rollercoaster ride. Vicious ups and downs and sharp turns. It's also a marathon to get through and not a sprint. Any tendency to speed up the process will cause issues down the road. It doesn't matter if you R or D. It is what it is. A common observation here is that it takes 2 to 5 years to get to healed - again, irrelevant of R or D.

I believe you will find that you know the tip of the iceberg and not the rest of it. Your WW has volunteered to do a poly. Follow up on that. Often that's put out there with the belief it won't happen. Do all the way through completion. If there is a "parking lot" confession still do the poly. I had my WW do one. It isn't, IMO, something that is the definitive answer to R or D. It is just more information gathering.

Your WW's actions are more important then words. The actions need to be consistent and trust your gut in determining if you think they are real. Don't get hooked on "hopium". It's very addicting. I've been a hopium addict. Thus far, your WW's actions and words don't look promising.

I'm so happy you found this site. It's a shitty club made up of fine, caring people. Please stay. Red up in the Healing Library. I'm so sorry for the reason you find yourself here.

my head is a bit of a mess at the moment

Unfortunately, that's normal. Being betrayed is a huge emotional trauma and the body and mind's natural, protective reaction is to go into shock. That causes all kinds of things, one of which is the head being a mess.

Even her attitude now - no affection, no apologies, no emotion, no effort, constant attacking me back, no understanding what I am feeling, more bothered about what I am doing.

Why is this?

The short answer is because she doesn't care. And that is because she is totally focused on herself which means she has no empathy for you. She is pissed off because you interrupted her Fantasyland experience. She was getting all the ego kibbles she desired and now getting her "fix" has become more difficult. As a result, not only doesn't she care about your pain, but she is looking for ways to manipulate/control you so that she can reestablish her Fantasyland. If she can get you to back off and/or not interfere more, she can continue down the path she was on while being more careful to not get caught.

There is also the element of respect. She betrayed you, which is one of the worst emotional wounds a person can give to another. It is totally unacceptable and there should be consequences as a result. However, in the shock of it all, many betrayed spouses choose to "reward" the wayward. They try to win them back by being nice and shield them from some of the natural consequences. That ends up causing the wayward spouse to lose even more respect, hands them more leverage and emboldens their behavior. If you want more detail, get a copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy."

Those commenting on your posts have been through it and want to help you. They know that it can lead to making mistakes which compound the situation. Some have been around this site for a while and have clearly seen the repeated patterns, so they are able to provide perspective that is very valuable. Each in their own way and style are trying to help you get passed some of the initial shock and put you into the best possible position for you, your kids and your marriage.

I know it is a lot of information in a very short period of time and that some of it sounds counterintuitive, but it is all aimed at trying to help you. At the moment, it is clear that you have an unremorseful wife and that the conditions are ripe for her to be able to continue the affair or already be doing so. It is also apparent that your wife not only emotionally eviscerated you through betrayal, but that she is continuing to emotionally and psychologically abuse you through her treatment of you and attempts to manipulate you. All of that is unacceptable, but (like many of us) you are accepting it. Seeing that clearly is your first step out of this mess because that will equip you to start choosing your actions well. This is why, whether through story, bluntness, encouragement or exhortation, many are trying to get through the normal degree of shock that has your mind feeling like a mess.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 9:44 AM, November 22nd (Thursday)]

Even her attitude now - no affection, no apologies, no emotion, no effort, constant attacking me back, no understanding what I am feeling, more bothered about what I am doing.

Why is this?

Remember when I posted this earlier in your thread -

when waywards start rewriting the marital history it generally means the affair has gone physical already. The rewrite process is to quell the cognitive dissonance in their heads. They KNOW what they did is wrong and they are seeking the "right" in it by vilifying you and the history she has with you.

That is your answer.

One of the things you will learn about here is that the first person your WW betrayed in starting her affair was actually herself. Most waywards have to run the rationalization hamster in their heads to justify the cheating, not in spite of their spouse but because it's what they WANT to do. You are MADE to be the reason IN HER OWN MIND as to why she deserves to have her affair. What you are witnessing is her attitude of entitlement.

d264p8, you actually have an advantage in your situation. You are getting to understand infidelity far more than your WW does. Right now, she only has the cheaters script and is merely following it. We are giving you the fucking manual of how this shit sandwich usually goes down. Cheating behavior is so incredibly predictable yet how to handle it is so incredibly counter intuituve. I highly suggest you follow Bigger's guidance in this if you want to R.

Also, in my situation the affair was exposed to me by the OBS. Before she let me know what was going on, my then WW was treating me the same way your WW is treating you know. Once I knew my then WW was in an affair it completely changed my approach to the situation. I suddenly found my balls and took the fate of the M away from my then WW's hands. She is now my XW by MY choice, not hers. My XW did not get the gift of R from me. When you decide to give the gift of R to your WW you want her to be remorseful of what she put you through, not in her current state of entitlement and pining for the A. There are some hard decisions you need to make and one of them is to tell the OBS as soon as possible. Yes. It will rock her world. Yes, it will bring her unimaginable pain like you went through. Yes, she may react in anger (as I did in my situation). But I am forever grateful my OBS told my the truth, brought clarity and understanding for the abuse my then WW was putting me through, and it did one thing my then WW was hoping would not happen - it EMPOWERED me to do something about it. By telling the OBS in your situation, you are empowering her to make tough decisions and execute tough actions in her life for her own sake, for her own children's sake.

BS here. Little over 2 years out from D day. Just recently found this site. The advice is incredibly accurate. I would have done things differently if I joined just after D day. Please tell the OBS. Wish the AP MIL would have contacted me when it was an EA . Here’s the back story. My H (53 at the time) AP ( 26) and her MIL all worked at the same place . AP was then married . H and AP start EA. AP husband is “abusive”. AP gets a D. My H fears that he contributed ( and probably encouraged the D). MIL starts spouting a lot of nasty rumors at work. AP comes to H for advice. H tells AP to go to HR. MIL rumors stop. H even tells me about it at the time . Of course I believed H. If MIL would have told me, this probably would have stopped an EA from turning into a LT EA/PA that lasted 1year 9 months with continued phone contact for a total of 2 years 3 months. H even admits that is true. That could have saved me an incredible amount of pain. Please tell the OBS. If she is like me, she will not tell anyone.

When people fail to take advice from those who have lived it, they tend to fail hard.

OP...respectfully...sunlight is the best cure for dishonesty.

You seem like you desperately want to rug sweep this and pretend you can go back to your life. You can't. That life is dead. She killed it. You can't undo what is done.

The only way out is forward and the only way forward is in sunlight. That sunlight is called full disclosure...to everyone.

If there isn't full disclosure, there isn't a chance in heck of saving anything.

There's the way we wish things worked...and then there is how it actually works. We all live in the second one.

Good luck...and I wish the best for you...but you seem like it's going to take something worse happening to you before you wake up and do what is required here.

Good luck.

d264p8, I thought I'd wander in here as your post title caught my eye. And I haven't read everything because it is pretty triggery.

I remember all the help and advice I received. I remember Crushed7.

After my exWW's first A I was in deep denial that she could do this. It was not her right?! I detailed what I was seeing on SI and was given advice that I didn't take. I wound up with more DDays and she had 3 more AP after the initial.

The denial is hard. In part because it protects you. If you are able to you, I would close my eyes and use the SI jedi powers. You will not lose what you don't have because you follow SI advice. And if there are signs that reconciliation is possible then you will find new direction on SI.

I'm sorry you are here and that this has happened to you. It is incredibly traumatic. You will be OK. It is going to hurt for a while though. Get into IC, journal, exercise, avoid alcohol, get sleeping pills if you aren't sleeping, see a lawyer ("reconciliation" over a certain amount of time can work against you), get tested for STI's.

as soon as I tell her then my relationship is over

This may be true, but if it is true then likely your relationship is over, and has been over, for some time, you just have not been made aware of it.

With 5 years or so, of hard work, ahead of you to save your relationship, if it is even salvageable at this time, and a significant change in behavior by your spouse being an ultimate requirement in order for that to be possible, you don't have to make any decisions at this moment.

However, I would suggest that you purchase and read the book "Not Just Friends".

All of us have been where you are now. I wish I'd have read that book in 2001, before I confronted my WS, who successfully lied her way through the confrontations.

Nobody is simpler to betray than someone who trusts you.

Even her attitude now - no affection, no apologies, no emotion, no effort, constant attacking me back, no understanding what I am feeling, more bothered about what I am doing.

Why is this?

Because she does not grasp the seriousness of her behavior. She has had no consequences for her actions. You need to snap her out of the fog but you seem to be scared to do it. Your marriage right now is over and will stay that way if you do nothing.

as soon as I tell her then my relationship is over

Have you ever had to give CPR?

Well… I have. One of the more shocking things about CPR is how HARD you press down. Hard to the point where you hear cartilage and bone crack.

I think you are afraid to press hard…

Being afraid to press hard in CPR basically means all your efforts are worthless. You might go through all the steps and think you are doing something to help, but if the pressure isn’t enough to pump the heart then you might as well pronounce the patient dead right away.

That’s your marriage as you knew it. It’s lying there without a beating heart. Your fear of exposure to the OMW is thinking a gentle nudge on the marriages chest might get that heart pumping. It won’t.

NOT TELLING the OMW is killing your marriage. It only remains to see if you or your wife gives up on the rotting corpse first.

Please read my repeated suggestion: Contact OMW and simply tell her what you know. Don’t use the words cheating or affair or suggest there was more going on than you know. Simply state facts. If that’s all that’s needed to destroy your marriage… well… then it’s over anyways. That’s not a firm marriage.

But it won’t destroy your marriage. Your WW will huff and puff but once she sees you are serious, once the OM dumps her and once she sees she can’t control or dictate how you deal with the affair… That is the moment your marriage finally has a chance to recover.

I’m sorry you’re here. You’ve gotten incredible advice already. And notice how consistent it is. Folks here have seen it all and know how these situations play out. They all tend to follow the same script.

I wish some of the many people had told me my WW was a serial cheater. It would have saved me years of living a fake, false life while others around me knew the truth.

Time to take control. Right now you’re not even in the back seat. You’re in the trunk being hauled around. Get yourself into the front seat and follow Bigger’s and others’ time-proven advice. I have no idea how it will ultimately turn out but I know it will be the best possible outcome these shitty circumstances allow.

Good luck brother.

She's acting the way she is because you ruined her fun. She doesn't care that she has hurt you.

I know the advice you are getting seems harsh - and, well, it is. Here's the thing - what people are saying to you WORKS.

Exposure to OBS is must.

Book the polygraph and take her there. You may get a parking lot confession, or she may suddenly start saying they can't be trusted - which means she's hiding stuff.

If she is in contact with him daily because of this kids club, the affair is ongoing. The fact that she turned on Find My Phone means very little.

STD testing is a must - and yet another reason to tell OBS. If she is being subjected to an STD, she deserves to know as it is putting her health at risk.

Right now your WW has all the power and is using it to control you. You need to take back your power and start being proactive.

d264p8,

I'm so sorry you're in this position and now you're bombarded with advice that seems overly harsh. We've all in been in very similar situations and most of us resisted the strong advice we got here.

You've gotten enough logistical advice, but here's my two cents:

The big question is: What is she willing to do to regain your trust?

Cheating spouses, typically want to minimize what they've done and what it's done to their spouse. Typically, they want to just forget it happened and move on. This will do nothing to regain your trust. Step One is you doing some soul searching (with a therapist, if needed) to figure out what you need from her to feel trust. This isn't easy for you and you may need to adjust it going forward.

The big work is on her. If she's not willing to do it, you'll either have to push for a divorce or settle for a relationship built on abuse.

Strength.

d264p8, it has been a while -- did you expose? Did you demand NC with the OM? You KNOW that you needed to do this for any hope for your marriage (and I hope you realized that she LIED about only a couple of kisses)?

Even her attitude now - no affection, no apologies, no emotion, no effort, constant attacking me back, no understanding what I am feeling, more bothered about what I am doing.

Why is this

Just because you found out doesn't mean her affair will end.

It may very well just go deeper underground.

You are rugsweeping at your peril.