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I’m about 20 months post DDay. R is still in the works. But, I cannot shake the need for justice for the multiple APs and my WW. The fact that the only way forward is for them to get off with little or zero consequence is eating me alive. I chose to stay for my kids and thought I could move on. But, it’s getting harder, not easier as time passes.

There are days that I want her to feel this pain. I want her to know what it’s like to be abandoned. I want her to suffer the ongoing hurt, nightmares and haunting images. I want her to wonder what I’m doing and where I am all day every day. I want her to dread holidays and important events that she’s ruined for me.

I don’t know that I will ever get past this need. I don’t feel I can heal without some sort of justice. I want a level playing field.

It will never be level.

It seems the Cheaters don't get it - like many people that have not been betrayed. They don't seem to fathom the nightmares or the triggers or experience them. The feelings of inadequacy thrown upon us... The therapy bills, going to your primary care physician asking to be tested for STDs... Have you read the No Soliciting?

Karma will find them... Someday

[This message edited by SI Staff at 1:13 AM, December 2nd (Sunday)]

It is possible to find justice, I swear. Justice will be found if you decide to forgive. Providing that all the right ingredients are there NOW in the marriage, like she is remorseful and wants the marriage too.

Two choices:

1. Not forgive. This keeps the chaos going, the fighting, the reminding, the bad memories alive and the OP involved. You get control, you get to say when you are healed, when the marriage is fixed, you get to continue to punish until YOU think it's enough. Now in the mean time life sucks and you are in a lot of constant pain. You waste time and moments that you could be making incredible memories and looking forward to the future.

2. Forgive. You ditch the old marriage that must of been bad to begin with. You put the crap behind you. Stop yourself, it's over, tell yourself enough is enough and a new marriage emerges with lots of love, friendship and new memories. Yes, I understand I've over simplified, but you get my point.

Not forgiving hurts you the worse and NO JUSTICE will ever be found.

The justice comes with you and your spouse develop an authentic, real, true happy friendship/marriage. This wakeup call of an affair can actually make a marriage better than ever. There is your justice! An amazing marriage, even though it took a serious heartbreak to get there.

The bonus is you can think about the OP and smile, you're with your spouse making a happy successful life with them and have a sense of satisfaction that if it weren't for them your marriage would still be in the old stale place.

I hope this helps.

There are days that I want her to feel this pain. I want her to know what it’s like to be abandoned. I want her to suffer the ongoing hurt, nightmares and haunting images. I want her to wonder what I’m doing and where I am all day every day. I want her to dread holidays and important events that she’s ruined for me.

Believe me, we’ve all been there with the thoughts. You’ve been heard, shipmate.

Now, let your imagination run...

So do it. Spend all of your energy and attention making her feel like crap. Go full negative all of the time. Watch her, and when she smiles, make a cutting remark about how she has ruined your life. Drunk text her. Don’t call. Embarrass her in front of friends and family. Maybe even have a revenge affair, unprotected, and catch a hopefully not permanent STD.

While you are doing all of that, just know that that will be who you are. A vengeful, permanently angry person who is willing to self destruct merely to cause someone else pain.

Is that what you want to see in the mirror every morning? With enough time, yours and your wife’s moral compasses would be indistinguishable. You’d be what you hate.

Maybe she would have just unleashed what was always there, and you have no control. Or maybe you have agency over your own decisions and can choose a path.

I chose to stay for my kids

So fully stay for them, as in stay who you were before all the bullshit rained down, or perhaps come out of it smarter and more compassionate and fair.

Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from exercising bad judgement, hopefully someone else’s experience. Your wife exercised horrific judgement, learn from it.

Sending strength!

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 9:18 AM, December 2nd (Sunday)]

I get it, about 30 years out from om1 and I still think about his doom while waiting for my youngest

I feel this too - it's all part and parcel of the "fairness game" that I find myself playing in my head all the time.

This is pretty normal, I think.

The thing is: you can't stay in R AND hurt your W WITHOUT adding to your own hurt. It takes time to realize that, and it takes even more time to get comfortable with it.

I recommend giving yourself the time you need.

There will be no justice. You've let the AP's spouses know. That's the best you could've done.

They wouldn't have been a problem if your WW hadn't let them into your life and family.

If you R then you accept what happened. You can't change or alter it.

You may not like it but it's the path you chose.

Everyone likes to speak about forgiveness. It's an over used word IMO. It's something that may come with time but you can't force yourself to do it. Saying the words "I forgive you" is meaningless. It's an action not words.

I'm D but I also struggle with this. A LOT.

But the fact is, rarely is there justice in this world and the secret to having peace and serenity in your life is to accept that.

I listen to a lot of Criminal podcasts of people wrongly convicted and how so many of them come out the other side and are able to heal and move forward with their lives after insurmountable obstacles and injustices helps me a lot. I don't understand HOW they do it but I know they do and that gives me hope that I will someday be able to do the same.

I hear you. I think it's normal to feel how you feel, to want those who hurt you to hurt as bad or worse. I spent the first 2 years post Dday blowing up the world's of my H and the OW. Doing so did relieve some of that pressure, and looking back, I'm glad I did it.

But comes a point you need to move beyond it. Mostly for your own sanity and healing. You may not be ready for phase 2 yet. So how do you see yourself getting justice? What is it you feel you need to do? Is there anything that will help even the score a bit?

I think what you are feeling is an appropriate longing in response to a spouses betrayal.

Is it a need....No. The consequences of infidelity in our society are divorce or you can choose to have a revenge affair.

Please refer to House of Plane's post regarding why this is an unacceptable alternative.

I think the more important questions are -

Has your wife expressed remorse or sorrow for what she has done?

What is she and you doing to rebuild the marriage?

As for consequences perhaps you should evaluate this more carefully. I can give you those of my wayward wife. However, I think it would be helpful for you to identify your wife's consequences with or without her assistance.

Oh yes. The need for justice. It's powerful, isn't it? Here's the fucked-up thing though. When it comes to infidelity there is no justice. There is nothing a WS can do to take away what they've given.

There are consequences for infidelity, although they may not always be what we want them to be. My FWW cashed in all of the love, trust and respect I once had for her. She betrayed her own values, integrity and honor. She betrayed herself and her true nature. She came very close to losing me. I could go on.

Some WS have the courage and fortitude to do their best when it comes to reconciliation, owning and fixing their shit, rebuilding what they've destroyed. Some don't. Some just don't care. It takes time to find out if a WS is willing and able to do the work that reconciliation requires. And it's a lot of work, particularly on themselves.

There are consequences. It doesn't feel like justice, though, and I don't think it ever could.

I also think that this need for justice is often confused with a need for vengeance. The two are not the same. I still harbor fantasies about cleaving the OM in two with a very large battle axe. It's very satisfying but actually doing it really wouldn't do anyone any good at all. As for a revenge affair, the entire idea is a misnomer. It's not revenge and there's no justification for infidelity.

I look at it a bit differently these days, a few years out. I was able to take the hit and survive. It's made me a bit stronger, I think, more self-aware and certainly more aware of the woman to whom I'm married. It's changed me in ways that I think are positive, on the whole. I don't need justice. The greatest justice, I think, is to live our lives honorably and authentically because it's the right way to live, creates right relations with others and ourselves. Justice is a BS taking control of their lives and determining for themselves what they can and cannot accept.

Reconciliation is a gift we offer our WS for a myriad of reasons. How that gift is received will tell a BS whether or not reconciliation is possible, whether or not a WS is willing and able go the distance.

I want a level playing field.

Why a "level" playing field when you hold the high ground? Why would you drag yourself down to her "level?"

Why a "level" playing field when you hold the high ground? Why would you drag yourself down to her "level?"

Believe me, there's no particular joy in holding the "high ground." Pre-A, BS were all on level ground with WS. That is a better place to be.

WS get the excitement of the A, maybe enjoyment out of hurting the BS (believe me this is a real thing in my case), maybe excitement of new M, maybe double dipping on income with child support and a new spouse as well. These are all things that happened to me. Penalties: Zero.

I was proud of being faithful when I was actually in the marriage. Now? I feel like a used-up fool, discarded and broken. My faithfulness was pointless and arguably counterproductive, since the marriage is over. So my faithfulness has been stomped on the ground and there doesn't seem to be a lot of reason to pick it up and clean it off.

I would love some justice instead of the "high ground."

This is an R board, so I will point out that many BS doing R also feel like the WS has no penalty. In fact, they are even getting a gift. This is true. This is why so many of them feel euphoria and give the marriage an A grade after the affair.

There are days that I want her to feel this pain. I want her to know what it’s like to be abandoned. I want her to suffer the ongoing hurt, nightmares and haunting images. I want her to wonder what I’m doing and where I am all day every day. I want her to dread holidays and important events that she’s ruined for me.

Never gonna happen, my friend. Never gonna happen.

I have sat here for 5 minutes trying to type out the words I see in my mind, and cannot do so. So I will offer this...

There's a saying, "never kid a kidder". The meaning is that it will never have the same effect/meaning on the jokester. Betraying is the same. I think it's because you're simply becoming just like them and it's more of a 'welcome to my club' rather than a betrayal of a faithful and trusting spouse.

I appreciate all of the replies. There are a lot of great comments and advice. Ultimately, I know I’m not going to see the “justice” I think I want and I know I’m not capable of sacrificing my honor, integrity and faithfulness to get it.

My WW is doing all the right things and is addressing her issues with humility. She takes the manifestations of my hurt and anger and keeps trying. I do believe she has repented and won’t ever stray again. I wish that made it easier, but as of today, I still fear how long her new commitment to fidelity will last.

I agree I’m on the higher ground, but it feels lonely up here sometimes. The saying that nice guys finish last has never been so true. My WW took away the option for our marriage to ever be pure with two equal partners. That’s hard to reconcile. Sometimes I feel that lowering myself is the only way to find that balance again. I don’t know how to move forward without that balance.

I don’t know how to move forward without that balance.

Balance. Ah, you hit on one of my favorite topics for R.

Balance is not just for the M, but also for how we see people and ourselves. Your W is flawed human being and despite how much you have internalized her actions these were not about you. It bring with the opportunity to positive growth as well as negative consequences.

It is easier to see yourself as victim versus an outsider looking in, right ? At least then you are part of this ugliness and have some illusion of controlling her fidelity in the future. It is true that justice and infidelity aren't compatible, but not exactly for the reasons that you think. The thing is your Ws As was never really about you. They were about her, her internal issues and her very misguided attempts to make herself feel better. Character deficit ? Certainly. All good or all bad ? I doubt it.

You see Justice/punishment as a corrective action. Lesson learned. She remembers the pain and someone magically gains the emotional skills to stay faithful. Sorry my friend it doesn't work like that.

You think compliance will ensure her fidelity? It will, but along with that also comes defiance and resentment. She lacked the character to deal with those things in the "right" way in the past. How do you think she will deal in the future.

She can atone. She can make amends/amendments. She can look at herself and become someone better than you ever thought that she would be, but she can't do that with her old definance/resentment mindset.

It makes a heal of a lot of more sense to offer her atonement and let her make amends. You most likely will benefit. She will also as she can see herself as different.

At the end of the day you need to share these thoughts with her in calm way so that she knows it bothers you. In R there are no "your" problems and "her" problems. You have to think of them as a shared problem. Talk to her man in a calm and diplomatic way. Share with her justy what you've shared here and offer her a path that allows her to rebuild herself versus continuing through life paying for sins of the past.

Punishment and revenge seem liek the answer, but you hurt yourself as much as you hurt her in that process. You rob yourself of living a good life. You have integrity, character and a whole hos of other things going for you. Who wouldn't want to be M to you ?

Sorry to cut this short, but I will be back on tomorrow. Keep reading and keep posting.

There is no justice. Have you considered that this may simply be a dealbreaker for you?

You say you're about 20 months post D-Day, but in looking at your timeline, the last big revelations happened 4/26/2017... that's more like 15 months. That kind of big TT really resets your healing.

I'm *exactly* 20 months out from my last big TT revelation about my WW's multiple A's. And I can say that I feel somewhat different now than 5 months ago. Be nice to yourself and don't expect too much.

The sense of justice is, I think, much stronger for betrayed men than betrayed women. Of course it hurts, of course we deal with horrific mind movies and trauma of all kinds, but there's something about the immense disrespect and unfairness of it all that I see men talk about on here much more than women.

As others have pointed out, no, there will be no justice. The playing field will never be level. There will be no equality. This is something you need to mourn, specifically. The loss of fairness in your marriage. It is a loss that you need to grieve and mourn and eventually accept if you will successfully R.

It's not easy, and I haven't fully gotten there. But one thing in particular has helped me...

A few months after D-Day, AP's extended family was murdered. 2 cousins, an aunt, and an uncle, whom he was very close to. It was all over the news, and is still currently unsolved with rumors swirling about drugs or jilted lovers or...whatever. Obviously the family had nothing to do with AP's affairs and are innocent bystanders in his horrible behavior. But I got to see, hear and imagine him undergoing all kinds of awful emotions, monumental pain and anguish, discussions with policemen and questioning, multiple funerals... it was terrible for him.

Did watching him undergo this pain feel satisfying in some bizarre kind of way? Maybe a little. But the thing I felt more strongly was ambivalence. It was not justice. It made nothing better. It was just throwing more pain into a world filled with pain and innocent victims. And the worst part was that I felt like a terrible, awful, sick human being for getting even a little satisfaction out of tragedy.

No. You don't want to be someone who gets enjoyment out of watching others suffer, even if it is your WW. We are better than that. Don't let your WW's awful behavior warp you and turn you into someone you are not, and don't let it destroy your own integrity.

I know this is the R board, but I confess to finding it satisfying when a WS is remorseful, but the BS divorces them anyway. That seems like justice to me.

Divorce is an option for BS, even religious BS. You can always remarry the same person if you want. I think that side of it is neglected. Marriage is a special status, the spouse is not just our neighbor. Even forgiving them doesn't mean they deserve to keep that special status.