SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi all.

My DDay was almost 2.5 years ago, you can read it here if you'd like: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=589791&HL=54654

After years of post DDay IC I've uncovered some interesting personal issues and have been working to better myself, which I have. It's the only silver lining to this otherwise painful experience.

One thing I told myself from the beginning is that the only way I can move on from this is if I believe cheating is no longer a big deal, and I feel like that's what's starting to happen to me. The problem is now I feel less motivated to be faithful to my wife because of what happened. I am not activally looking to have an affair, but I'm constantly weighing my options on giving up on our marriage or staying and letting time run its course. I also do things like take my ring off in public to see how it feels, i question what it would be like to be a single father, And I just feel in a permanent limbo on what I should do.

I'm curious if anyone has been in my situation and decided to stay to find that more time really did help, or if I'm going to always have this affair hanging over my head so I should just cut my losses and go. Or maybe I should have my own affair to see how I feel after. It's not about retaliation any more, it's trying to figure out what I want for once because I've always put others before myself prior to IC. Thanks for any constructive input.

Hey for some of us Infidelity is a dealbreaker, and that is OK.

But listen, having an affair of your own, or acting out to see if you get noticed, isn't the right way to go about getting healthy, in fact it is wayward as hell, and is only going to lead to more F'd upness in your relationship.

In an M where reconciliation occurs it's not about the BS accepting what the WS did and determining it is no big deal. Reconciliation is a ton of very difficult work for both partners. Working to understand the why of the WS, and working through that, and as the BS, finding our voice and who we are again as we have been victimized and have to grieve what was ripped away from us.

But cheating as a BS is not the way to go. As the old saying goes 2 wrongs don't make a right. In fact 2 wrongs make for a nightmare of a shitstorm that will take even longer to recover from.

See an attorney. Learn your rights. Maybe that will help you determine if D is the way for you. But if your Married, you are married, and you shouldn't be seeking out attention or advertising that you are not. That's broken behavior in and of itself.

Learning how to be happy and complete as an individual is the most important part of the journey of healing yourself after infidelity. Step back. Reevaluate your situation. Determine if it is a dealbreaker, and if not what changes you need from your WS to rebuild. IF it is then file.

Don't have an A - remember how you felt/feel when you found out and afterwards? Why would you want to put that pain on anyone else and why would you want to have an A with anyone who would be okay with that? If your answer to why would you want to put that pain on anyone else is: I would only consider doing that to my WS, then you have your answer right there - you're done. End the marriage and get out on your own. As to why you would want to have an A with anyone messed up enough to consider that, you have to really think to yourself why on Earth you would even be OKAY with that type of mentality on any level, single or married.

I would also add regarding the AP - the AP is my life is such a messed up headcase that I can't imagine wanting to associate with her nevertheless be intimate with someone like her on any level (I just posted her unsolicited and un-responded to messages to me over the holiday weekend in the general forum if you care to read the insanity). An AP is a messed-up person, and in my case seems to be lacking in self-esteem on an astronomical level (why else would anyone "settle" for someone otherwise involved with someone else, married or not?) Think about all the AP's you've read about on this site over the years - do you really want/need that in your life?

If you're looking for someone who isn't interested in a "relationship" there are single people out there who are down with that - just make sure you are single too. I have a friend who had a "revenge A" after her WH cheated on her multiple times and she says she regrets it to the end of time - she felt guilty, horrible about herself, horrible for her kids - just horrible in general. Don't do it.

It's obviously your choice. I have not been through or had the thoughts you had. That said, I think if you want to follow through on your feelings then you should D first. I can't see how doing this while still M could possibly help anything.

In an M where reconciliation occurs it's not about the BS accepting what the WS did and determining it is no big deal.

Tushnurse is right. This is the antithesis to R. R involves the WS doing the work to become someone who doesn't cheat - not the BS doing the work to stop caring about whether WS cheats or not. R is about surviving infidelity by not living in infidelity. You're practicing the opposite - how to live comfortably in infidelity.

Having a revenge A is a terrible idea but if you do it, accept that your marriage will likely be over as a result. Just because your WW had an A doesn't necessarily mean she will stick around after yours. It doesn't mean that even if she does try to that your marriage won't end due to how extremely broken it has now become. And whoever the OW is isn't going to be any prize herself. Why go through all of that just to D anyways? Figure out if you even want to stay married and if you don't, D before you drag someone else into this mess.

One of the inherent limitations of a forum like this is that participants can only offer advice based on the information that you provide. Two years ago, when you first came here, most of the participants had a sense you were rug-sweeping. You denied this, but your posts did not include any detail discussing what kind of work your WW was doing to help you heal, and it included things like this:

I'm not declaring a R, I'm just tired of reliving the past and want to start making the effort to move forward from this. This thread has been very helpful for me to sort out my issues, but a lot of the advise given is coming from others first hand experience of devastation, and I'm afraid it's enabling me to go backwards in my healing.

Talk like that, things like forgetting the past and looking forward, those are the kinds of things WS's get lambasted for saying. When a BS says them, they are almost always code for rug-sweeping.

You posted that in August, 2016, more than 2 years ago. You also then said:

I think I'm going to take a step back from posting and asking any more questions here, and start letting time and IC take control.

Now, here we are over 2 years later, and you're still in the same place:

One thing I told myself from the beginning is that the only way I can move on from this is if I believe cheating is no longer a big deal,

Gently, that approach is destined to fail. Cheating is a big deal. A VERY big deal. The only way to R is for both spouses to do the hard work. Your posts again reveal nothing showing your WW is doing the work to help you heal. Maybe she is, but you aren't showing this in your posts. Instead, two years after your initial thread, you are musing about what it would feel like to be single, you are experimenting with removing your ring, and you tell us you "feel in a permanent limbo." Permanent limbo. Because neither you nor your WW have done the work. Because you have been rug-sweeping.

Clearly what you have been doing isn't working. The old saying is something like: "If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting."

My own personal opinion, based on the limited info from your posts, is that you need to separate from your WW. You need space away from her to find your heart's truth.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:26 PM, December 26th (Wednesday)]

Thanks for all the non-judgmental replies.

I understand the idea that having an affair won't help anything. To give a little back story on myself, one of the revelations from IC was that I was a full fledged people pleaser, caring more about making others happy so I will feel liked instead of trying to figure out what's best for my interests. Now I'm navigating some complicated waters trying to understand what I want vs what I think will make others like me.

That being said, I was married pretty young, and after the A and IC I'm basically questioning every decision I've ever made while also doing things I may have previously never considered. My therapist encourages me to consider my own feelings and desires first without thinking about the impacts to other people. Sounds selfish, but when you live a life of selflessness and still get incredibley hurt, you may realize like me that it's time for change.

To make things more complicated, my wife has been pretty awesome since we started R over two years ago. If it weren't for the A hanging over my head, I might actually be very happy.

I understand the idea of forgiveness, but I'm still not ready I guess and I need to understand why.

Butforthegrace - I didn't see your reply before I typed mine. You make valid observations, I was definitely rug sweeping two years ago. The thought of not being with her scared me to be honest.

My wife has very much changed in all positive ways in the past two years though, even on things totally unrelated to the A like becoming very responsible with money. She's constantly validating me and showing appreciation of my contributions for the family. I'm the one who is distant, not putting in the work as much as I "should", because I don't know if I want to. Separation would be easier without kids, but that's not an option for me. As much as I want to consider my own feelings first, I put my kids needs before mine.

I have moments where I feel happy in my family, but I also have moments when I look at my wife and feel nothing, or at least not like I did before the A.

Reach out to Hikingout - I have read many of her posts as a WS and she indicated the same type of people-pleasing tendencies leading her to her A. Maybe she can give you some insight to the mindset.

That being said I'm pretty sure that you KNOW having an A, revenge, exit, or otherwise is wrong for many many many reasons. I don't think your IC is giving you "permission" to try things that you know are wrong - instead I'm guessing your IC is trying to get you to think outside of the box you've been keeping yourself in. Think about it - is your IC really telling you to go out and try committing some crimes to see if that makes you feel any better/different even if it means people won't like you? I doubt it. I'm guessing your IC is trying to get you set boundaries - and say no once in a while, something my IC is also telling me as I'm great at it at work but terrible in my personal life.

I understand the idea of forgiveness, but I'm still not ready I guess and I need to understand

There has been a lot of discussion here on SI about what "forgiveness" means in the context of an A. I think most agree that it does NOT mean you forget about the A. The A will be a presence in your life forever, and as a BH you should by now feel absolute freedom to bring it up and discuss it with your WW whenever it is on your mind. If you do not have that freedom, then you aren't even in R.

Speaking personally, the best definition of forgiveness I've seen is the end of feeling like you want revenge against your WW for the A. You can forgive, by the way, whether you R or D. In fact, my opinion is that forgiveness is something you need to do, for yourself, regardless of R or D. It is untenable to live a life consumed with the thirst for revenge.

Gently, my own opinion is that forgiveness isn't your issue. Admittedly my opinion is based on limited information, but I do believe you haven't addressed the trauma of the A, and your WW hasn't tended to the things she needs to do to help you heal. In other words, your hurdle isn't forgiveness, it's healing.

First, I think you'll benefit from rereading the posts above, especially the ones from tush and Butforthegrace.

You say your W has been awesome. And you say you've been testing the slippery slope. Do you not see the conflict between these 2 statements?

It sounds almost as if you contemplate shifting from people pleaser to people displeaser. Alienating people is even more unhealthy than pleasing them.

I agree it's important to know what you want, even if what you want is inaccessible. It's then important to understand what it will take to get what you want and the implications. But it starts with letting yourself know what you want.

You're feeling cheated of experiences you want because you married young? OK. I get it. I married young, too, way younger than I expected to.

Now we've been married 50+ years, and it's great. But we've got a long-term relationship only because we married young.

You want what you want, and wanting is healthy. Actions, though, can be healthy or not. Deciding to D because you really want more notches in your bedpost may be healthy. Deciding to get more notches while lying to your W is unhealthy any way you look at it. Opening your M based on free choice may be healthy. Testing the slippery slope is unhealthy any way you look at it - there's no way it can end well.

Fuck forgiving your W. It's not necessary, to begin with, and I expect it's too soon to give it in any case. What do you mean by 'forgiveness' anyway? (That's a serious question.)

Forgiving yourself IS a big deal. I recommend working on that. Devoting all your effort to forgiving yourself wouldn't be out of line. You made a bunch of mistakes. You did the best you could at the time. You're cutting down on the mistakes.

I understand you're still working out who you want to be. You're bound to take at least a few wrong steps. Changing from people pleaser to authentic, autonomous human being is difficult, since you have to learn what authentic and autonomous are. Just take it real easy and think a lot before you act, and run things past your IC - not for your IC to judge, but to help clarify your thinking and acting.

The A will be a presence in your life forever

Well that's discouraging. Is this regardless of R or D?

I don't feel the need to revenge, I'm just searching for happiness. Maybe I'm not healed yet, I thought after 2.5 years I'd be there but maybe you're right and I'm not. I do get waves of anger when I think of it sometimes, but more often I don't. It's all very confusing.

As for forgiving myself, now that I understand who I was as a people pleaser/Co dependent, I can say with confidence that I fully forgive myself for what I didn't know at the time. That confidence in my own forgiveness is why I have a hard time forgiving my WW. Forgiveness to me is understanding why she did it, and while I may understand the affair, I don't think I'll ever understand why she found it appropriate for us to meet, and hang out together at times. I have a picture burned in my memory of AP, WW and myself all smiles at a bar together, me no clue what was really going on behind closed doors...

As to the A being a presence in your life, for life, yes, this is true regardless of R or D. It will certainly diminish with time, but it will be a defining event in your memory. Most of us have a few. I was cheated on and dumped by a LTGF. I was devastated and crushed. Spent some years living a very dysfunctional life, then some years healing. Met a wonderful woman. Got married and had kids. The A was almost 30 years ago. I still remember the pain of it from time to time.

My wife has very much changed in all positive ways in the past two years though, even on things totally unrelated to the A like becoming very responsible with money. She's constantly validating me and showing appreciation of my contributions for the family

.

If I were to read this statement alone, and this was the only thing I knew about your WW, I would translate this as: "My wife used to be a real bitch. But she's not acting like a bitch any more."

Fine. So now she's doing the baseline minimum that a decent, committed spouse should do in a healthy, functioning marriage.

You don't have a healthy, functioning marriage. You are codependent, and more importantly your WW cheated on you and lied to you about it.

Is the A something the two of you talk about, in detail, frequently? Do you feel free to ask her any question, including right down to the dirtiest of dirty detail, at any time, and does she patiently and fully answer it even if you've asked the same question a scrillion times before? Is she bringing up the A as a topic of communication and making proactive efforts to figure out what you need to heal your trauma? If none of this has been part of your marriage for the past 2 years, then you are not doing great. You're treading water.

I understand a lot about co-dependency and people-pleasing. I have this trait myself and it was probably a contributor to the relationship in which I was cheated on and dumped. It leads to unhealthy relationships. Frankly, it's unfair to both you and your WW. At some level, it becomes a matter of chronic dishonesty, by you, pretending to be happy in the relationship when in fact you're not. At some level, your WW must intuit this and internalize it. In this way, co-dependency creates two unhappy spouses out of one.

Have you read about The 180? The purpose of the 180 is to give yourself some headspace to find your inner truth. My opinion is that you need this.

I understand the concern about children. I'm a parent too, and I realize the data shows that if the parents can create at lease the semblance of a happy marriage in general benefit if the parents stay together. In other words, "staying together for the kids" is a valid reason.

But the data also shows that kids are way more perceptive than adults give them credit for. They pick up in stress, hostility, alienation between their parents, and it's actually bad for the kids if they grow up viewing that model as the appropriate model for their own marriage. Honestly, would you wish your marriage for any of your kids? If not, then why on earth would you continue to model that marriage for them as the paradigm that to which they should aspire in their lives?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:45 PM, December 26th (Wednesday)]

Thanks Butforthegrace, you pretty much hit every nail on the head again.. Sounds like we have more work to do.