SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

While cheaters are generally manipulative, it's towards the BS, not the AP, in my opinion. Free will is free will and no one can be manipulated into having an A. That was a choice she made. No amount of manipulation can make someone start an A. Again, my opinion.

Manipulation does not excuse her consent.

Until her stance is acknowledgement that her consent was the sole problem, then she is not worth reconciliation.

The OM never made a promise of fidelity to you.

Maybe she just as much "manipulated" him into giving her what she wanted by giving him what he wanted.

Attempts are made every day to persuade/manipulate, intentionally and unintentionally, people into all manner of things. Marketing is built on the attempt to manipulate people into feeling good about making a purchase, whether you need it or not or can afford it or not. It's not BMW's fault if you spend your family savings on a car you can't afford. Making that very bad choice was not the result of BMW telling you what you wanted to hear.

The issue is not manipulation, it is how willing are you to give in to the temptation to feel good at others expense. The issue is how safe are you to be with when you make the decision that you know full well is dishonest and unhealthy.

Everything that happens in infidelity is a fraud and manipulation, his fraud is not the source for her fraud any more than typical M issues are the reason for WS cheating.

Hi KdFenix12,

I think you need to be careful not go down the rabbit hole of casting an unfaithful spouse in the role of victim. It turns the whole dynamic on its head, and it will hamper your reconciliation if that is the way you choose to go.

Where two married people make a deliberate and conscious decision to embark on an affair, they are both perpetrators. The only victims are their betrayed spouses.

For some people it is comforting to cast the affair partner as the Devil incarnate. He/she has dark powers. He/she is a master hypnotist. He/she is a vampire that preys on the weak and vulnerable. It was Voodoo...

All of which makes their own cheating spouse less responsible. Hence the comfort in selling ourselves the delusion of affair partners as evil superhumans who possess incredible powers that no human being can resist.

And yet, when most people describe their spouse's affair partners, the vast majority are a long way from Superman or Wonder Woman.

So for your own good, and the good of your potential reconciliation, I urge you to not fall into the trap - however comforting - of casting the affair partner as a wicked magician, and your wife as a helpless victim. That infers that one cheat is 'good', and one is 'bad'. Remove that bogus good/bad concept from an affair and what you are left with is the reality; two cheats.

I also take issue with the term manipulation being applied to a person who makes a conscious decision to cheat. The strongest term I would go for is 'persuasion' by the initiator, and willing submission to that persuasion by the flattered recipient. A sales pitch is made, and that sales pitch is accepted. The choice to say no is always there, but it is not taken. That choice is not made by the persuader, but by the person who buys the sales pitch because they want to be talked into it.

We need to be honest with ourselves about what percentage of adults lack the experience and intelligence to realise when another person is making sexual advances to them. How many women do not know when a man is trying to put the moves on them? And when they have that 'light bulb' moment of recognition, they either shut the guy down, or give him a chance to make his sales pitch. So where is the manipulation?

The point of all this is to turn the focus away from the affair partner, and put it where it really belongs, which is on our spouses and the reasons why they said 'yes' when they could have said 'no'. That is where the problem is, and where the work really has to be done if reconciliation is going to have a chance of working.

Waste no time or energy crediting the other man with powers of hypnosis, levitation, mind-control, etc. He is just a sleazy, opportunist. Do not elevate him into some kind of superman, because that shifts the balance of responsibility away from your wife.

His sales pitch is irrelevant to you and your way forward. What matters is why your wife willingly bought that sales pitch, and why - if you choose to stay with her - she is not going to buy the sales pitch of the next sleazy opportunist who crosses her path.

Let her do the work to convince you of that before you commit to reconciliation. For now, the best thing for you is to sit on the fence and be neutral. That is not easy, because emotions run high at times like this. However, a neutral stance is the best way to begin a possible reconciliation, because it means you will not talk yourself into it, but you will also give your wife a fair hearing if she makes the effort.

It is often said in these forums that a person should wait three or six months before making a big decision, to give their feelings time to normalise, and to give their spouse a chance to prove/demonstrate their commitment to change themselves.

Too often, a betrayed person can think they have to make a snap decision to stay or divorce, but that is not the case at all. Give yourself some time in neutral to consider what you (not your wife) really want, and what you (not your wife) need if you are going to remain in the marriage.

It is then up to your wife to decide whether or not she is prepared to provide what you need. She did the damage, she has to decide if she wants to fix it. It is up to you, and no-one else, what that fixing should consist of.

As you think about what you need, there are resources available that can provide ideas. If you click on the link to The Healing Library at the top left of the screen, and then the 'Articles' link at the top of that page, there is a whole raft of useful pieces that you can read.

There are many books on the subject, and there is a hyperlink to a list of books in The Healing Library. One that is not mentioned, but which has been spoken of positively by forum members is, "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful" by Linda J. MacDonald. Although it is aimed at the unfaithful partner, the book can spark ideas about what a betrayed spouse may need. Sometimes it is hard for us to pin it down.

I hope what I have written does not come across as harsh. It is not meant to condemn your wife, but to prevent you from wasting time on the whole predator-victim/manipulation thing as it applies to two people who decided to cheat together. That adds unnecessary drama and distraction to a very basic and simple scenario: one person made a sales pitch, and the other person accepted it because they wanted to. Once an affair begins, both are equal participants in it. Without their willing, mutual co-operation, the affair would not exist.

Whatever you choose to do, I wish you well, and I hope this forum will become a useful resource for you.

[This message edited by M1965 at 4:25 AM, February 9th (Saturday)]

Yes, a person can be manipulated into cheating. There are people who troll to see if someone will take the bait. They usually find someone who is vulnerable to cheating.

That being said, this in no way excuses anyone from cheating. Boundaries between men & women have to be in place to avoiding cheating.

Maybe the OM was manipulating your wife, BUT your wife could have walked away. Period. She chose not to.

In my personal situation, the OW pursued my WH relentlessly. He had ample opportunity to shut her down, he chose not to.

There's that little word, no, that sends a very powerful message.

Your wife was a willing participant. Sorry.

Nobody of sound mind can get manipulated to commit adultery.

If she is that easily manipulated please don’t let her go to a timeshare presentation.

While I do vehemently believe that an AP can manipulate before, during and after an affair. The WS still had choices. They chose in this instance to be manipulated.

Just like they chose to have an affair, they chose to be manipulated. For example:

1) My WW's AP expected her to pay for the hotel room because he was "known" in the community. The only reason she didn't and didn't question it was because she would feel slutty. Thus she offered up our home. It wasn't until I stopped traveling (and they had no where to bang, that he finally offered up his own home instead).

Again, she allowed herself to be manipulated.

It's like I told her (close to DDAY) when she said "he wouldn't take no for answer". Um, doesn't facebook have a block feature? Yes, he may have been manipulating her with messages (attention) morning, noon and night, but she chose not to block him.

I even went as far to ask "did he rape you?" As you make it sound as though it was all him. Did he force you to drive your car to the park? Did he force you to let him in your car at the park? did he force you to drive to our home and then force you into our bedroom? Upon arrival, did he force you to bend over and have sex? No to all these questions? Then why again, are you blaming him?

So she was cheating during what you consider to be the best 6 months of your M. And she had sex with him twice and then she ended it but continued an emotional A until you caught her.

It's not unusual for the WS to minimize the A and blame the AP. As a grown married woman, she knew what she was getting into and continued contact with him. Really they were probably both manipulating each other.

The fact that you thought the past 6 months were the best your marriage has been in a long time is very damning for it being only a couple of months. To me, it says that she upped her effort in the marriage when this went physical, probably out of guilt. So you better get a real timeline.

Normally a WW will sexually cut her husband to remain true to her main man. But the fact that she upped her effort in the marriage, means it may have been an only sexual affair, which means them doing it only 2 times during all that time is complete bull. In a just sex affair, she could have been very wanton with the sex acts.

Don't waste your time with MC. It usually does more harm. She needs to provide you a timeline and then you can have her take a poly. One of the questions will definitely have to be was this her only affair. If she's capable of having sex without being emotionally attached, then she may have engaged multiple times. Especially during the low you had 4 years ago.

Also, you better have access to all her passwords, accounts, and gadgets. Have deleted text and pics restored.

Your wife wasn’t a naive little girl that was manipulated by the big bad OM. Nope, no way whatsoever. Your wife was a willing participant who made the choice to betray you and your marriage. Trying to excuse her deliberate choices made is taking away accountablitity & responsibility from her and is straight up rugsweeping. Even if the OM is a smooth, sweet talking, master manipulator if your wife had been a moral woman with appropriate boundaries, his words/actions would’ve never had the chance to reach her. She slept with him because she WANTED to. Period.

Also, cancel the MC and find yourself an IC instead. The marriage IS NOT the reason your wife chose to cheat.

Also, cancel the MC and find yourself an IC instead. The marriage IS NOT the reason your wife chose to cheat.

^THIS!^

In the same boat, wife cheated with her yoga teacher. A man whom we respected and even broke bread with. Played with my kids and would even give me friendly hugs. My wife sought inner transformation and clarity through yoga. Instead she had this bastard of a teacher fall in love with her. I agree to an affirmation that I found in the healing library where we as spouses are responsible for 50% of our own marital problems. Yet we are 0% responsible for the affair that our WS's get involved in. That's 100% on them, they strayed because they searched for something lacking inside them. They could have come to us for help, but are deluded into us being non-existent. The love we have for our spouses will always be there. It may sometimes evolve into a different form, but will always be there until we choose to extinguish that flame.

My thoughts are with you mate...

Nobody is manipulated into having an affair. He's not the problem, your wife letting another man screw her is. He's definitely a POS, but not the problem.

If this manipulation happened, she needs to know why she allowed herself to be manipulated: We have had a lot of lengthy conversations about this. She knows she should have still avoided it, and can't see why she didn't.

I would hold off on the MC & have your WW concentrate on IC. Your WW needs to discover why she had the A. Saying she doesn't know why is just a load of BS. She did it because she wanted to...PERIOD. Until this little gem of a issue is cleared up then she is a prime candidate for another A because she doesn't know why she had one in the first place.

Manipulation is an excuse and damage control. He manipulated her, she manipulated him. Reality is she manipulated you.

The reason for cheating was opportunity knocked, she really wanted to, she thought she'd never get caught so she did it.

It's so easy for her to say she was a victim hoping you will buy it. As so many above have said, she's a grown woman, she has agency, she can make decisions. She actively made this decision. It was a choice made by her.

My WW could claim being a victim, too, I guess. He manipulated her by walking up to her office in a way that intrigued her and offering her a ride to head office for a meeting. That was all it took to catch her attention. She carried the ball from there. You do not know what role your WW played to carry this out. How many times she initiated contact or how much input she had in arranging meeting up, etc.

Full disclosure is required. TT (trickle truth) is deadly and defeating. I would request she provide a written timeline with details, places, times, contact methods, arrangements, how she felt, etc. You may think there's been full disclosure but there probably hasn't been.

A polygraph was suggested and I would suggest that, too. The threat of one has mysteriously resulted in memories suddenly being remembered. It can stimulate new disclosures and parking lot confessions. Even it that happens, go through with the poly anyway. Sometimes a little more disclosure results in a "now you know everything". I don't know how many times I heard that I knew everything. Trust your gut, too.

I support the position put forward above that MC should be avoided. IC for her, definitely. IMO, you probably need IC, too. I sure did. MC can be quite detrimental to a BS. Often, unless with a very good MC, responsibility for the adultery is shifted to the BS.

All of the adultery is on the WS. 100%. Nothing you did or didn't do caused her to have an EA or PA with another man. Nothing. There's shared responsibility for marital issues but not the adultery.

Your WW wanted to do this. She wanted to try it out. It intrigued her. Opportunity, desire, thinking can get away with it = adultery.

There are at least 3 ways manipulation can come into the conversation.

1) My W never claimed to be manipulated. She was the KISA, totally in control, in her mind - until she wasn't. I was the one who saw manipulation. W's IC sees manipulation. It took a long time for my W to see it.

2) If my W had told me in the early days that she had been maneuvered into cheating as an excuse, I would have been very, very angry.

3) If my W had said, after a lot of reflection, 'I let myself get manipulated,' that might be good insight.

It's not the topic of manipulation per se that says much about a WS. Rather, it's what she says about manipulation.