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Where do I go from here? How do I fix this? Why am I not enough?

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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 6:33 PM on Wednesday, July 10th, 2019

Why do you believe the pick-me dance will actually work when it never has in the history of this site?

Do you not understand how it makes you look weak in her eyes? Do you think that what attracted her to the OM was his apparent strength?

Perhaps I should open a thread on this; perhaps this post is a T/J. Nevertheless, I'll use this opportunity to take issue with the idea that the problem with the pick-me dance is that it looks weak.

The problem with the pick-me dance is that it's an attempt to read one's WS's mind, adjust to it, and win the WS back by being who the WS wants you to be. It lets someone else define who you are, and since you CAN'T read her mind, you can't even know what that definition is.

To be in a real relationship, a person has to be real. The pick-me dance requires stifling oneself, and that's the opposite of being real.

Stifling oneself is simply a lousy way to live. Some people can live that way without hurting others much, but my W's stifling herself was one of the prime causes of her A, and she's not alone.

I don't care if the pick-me dance does or doesn't make a person look weak.

What I care about is that the pick-me dance requires a BS to sell him- or herself out, and that's a tragedy.

*****

** posting as a member **

LateNight,

I, too wonder why you are here, since you do the opposite of what we recommend.

I want to say this:

I hope you're getting something positive from posting.

We aim, I think, to help you act in your own best interests - but you have to and get to make your own decisions.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 31107   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8404097
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HoldingTogether ( member #29429) posted at 6:59 PM on Wednesday, July 10th, 2019

Perhaps I should open a thread on this; perhaps this post is a T/J. Nevertheless, I'll use this opportunity to take issue with the idea that the problem with the pick-me dance is that it looks weak.

The problem with the pick-me dance is that it's an attempt to read one's WS's mind, adjust to it, and win the WS back by being who the WS wants you to be. It lets someone else define who you are, and since you CAN'T read her mind, you can't even know what that definition is.

To be in a real relationship, a person has to be real. The pick-me dance requires stifling oneself, and that's the opposite of being real.

Not to continue the threadjack but I couldn’t agree more with this.

Sisoon- I, for one, would like to encourage you to open that thread on this topic because that is one of the ideas I often see thrown around here on SI that really rubs me the wrong way. I’d love to have a lively debate on the topic. Perhaps the Betrayed Men’s thread in ICR would be an appropriate venue?

End threadjack.

Us-Reconciled.
You keep waiting for the dust to settle, and then, one day you realize... This is it, that dust is your life going on around you.

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id 8404115
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RocketRaccoon ( member #54620) posted at 4:31 AM on Thursday, July 11th, 2019

LN,

I'm not saying all BS have anything to do with what happens to them. But I think SOMETIMES they do. I think I did.

Yes and no. BSs have control of themselves, and what they do with that control is up to the BS, and BS only. What is done TO the BS is another thing altogether. The BS does not have control over that.

A simple and crude analogy: A ball is thrown at a person. The person sees the ball. The person has two basic options; 1. avoid being hit by the ball by the ball, 2. stay and get hit by the ball.

The person has no control over the ball, but has control over themselves.

The WS can blameshift to the BS all they want, but they chose to have an A, which the BS had no say in the matter, because the BS did not know about it.

The only responsibility a BS has, is to heal themselves.

Maybe I'm just self soothing by thinking that I could have anything to do with the outcome. But I really feel like I do.

What you are probably feeling, is a sense of hopelessness. That you lost 'control'. Don't sweat it. It is a natural feeling of 'what if'.

You cannot control what you don't know, but ever since you knew, you did start taking some control back.

Stay strong, and implement NC, or you will be living in a hell you made for yourself because there is contact. This will not help you heal. You are responsible to heal yourself.

You cannot cure stupid

posts: 1199   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2016   ·   location: South East Asia
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 LateNght (original poster member #70640) posted at 5:40 AM on Thursday, July 11th, 2019

Wow. I want to respond to everyone individually but honestly the way the quotes work on this site are kind of cumbersome so bear with me I'm sure if you read something related to what you posted previously you'll know I'm responding to you.

Also I dont have a ton of time so I'll put together a much more detailed post later on tomorrow or the weekend.

First things first....

I did NOT call her a whore. I said its NOT like I was dating a whore for 7 years. The affair changed her. If she'd been like this the whole time we would have never made it anywhere near 7 years. Not calling her a whore now either, but shes literally like a shell of the person I knew. And that hurts to watch.

Someone talking about emotional abuse vs physical abuse. Here's my thing on BS SOMETIMES having something to do with a WS affair.... 2 examples.

Example 1. Guy abuses wife, wife cheats. Why didnt she just leave abuser? Maybe shes scared. Maybe she could have called police or got a restraining order or blah blah blah, but what if that just pisses the guy off more? Her best bet is to have a new guy fall for her that would fight back for her and scare abuser off.

This is an extreme example and certainly nothing like my situation.

So more along the lines of my situation...

Example 2. It is human nature to want more, to want better, to want it all. My ex got offered NSA fun for money and job security. With the assumption no one would ever know. It's like the experiment where the researchers tell the kids about the cookie under the napkin but you cant look at or eat it and then they leave them in the room alone. Not only do they look, they always eat it! Its human nature. And adults are no different when sex & money are involved. Selfish? yes. In terms of cheating and affairs, is it abhorrent? Yes. But its human nature. And WS are human. When a woman has the opportunity to cheat, the potential AP gets sized up against current BF and relationship. Risk vs. Reward. If she chooses to cheat then her PERCIEVED reward is greater than her PERCIEVED risk.

The truth is, I was not looking after how my gf percieved me. Clearly her perception starting heading downhill, and when presented with an opportunity to have more, she took it. She WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN IT if I had been looking after her perception of me and she held me in higher regard. I'm not a slob, but just to make the point if you act like a slob your going to be seen as one.

Women are emotional, I was so consumed in my business that I did not pay her the attention that she needed. And yes she could have talked to me about it, we could have gone to therapy or worked on it w.e.... but theres a free cookie, no ones gonna know.... that little voice is saying "taaaake the coooookie"... and she took the cookie bc shes not perfect.

But I knew that going in. I knew she was a human lol. I dont date aliens. I really feel like I got lazy after so long and dropped my guard and if I hadn't have done that and I would have been more in certain areas she wouldnt have emotionally detached to the point of being able to cheat.

I think most people are CAPABLE of cheating. Especially in todays society.

None of what I'm saying is in defense of her character by the way so no one take it that way. What she did, and who she became to do it, are awful.

But it's not unredeemable.

There in lies the rub. Is she doing enough?

No. And were not back together.

I think rocket was the one that addressed all of my update points individually but I cant see that post while replying so I need to post this and go back and look at that so I can answer those questions.

BY THE WAY....

To everyone. It's not that I have not listened. I have, really. Everyone has helped. The only thing I havnt done is NC. That doesn't cancel out the strength I get in the rest of your advice or posts. I'm here because I think it helps. I'm still early on journey to understanding & healing.

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RocketRaccoon ( member #54620) posted at 6:16 AM on Thursday, July 11th, 2019

that little voice is saying "taaaake the coooookie"...

We all have that voice, but we also have another voice that says.... 'doooon't taaaaake the cooookie....' People who have this other voice usually have a strong moral compass.

I dont date aliens.

... but sometimes it sure feels like it.

I really feel like I got lazy after so long and dropped my guard and if I hadn't have done that and I would have been more in certain areas she wouldnt have emotionally detached to the point of being able to cheat.

It takes two to make a relationship work. Yes, you may have gotten complacent, but your WGF could have also said something about it. Unless there is something that you are not telling us (e.g. you get violent with her if she communicates her concerns), she did not HAVE to get into an affair. She was not herded at knife/gun point to her affair.

None of what I'm saying is in defense of her character by the way so no one take it that way. What she did, and who she became to do it, are awful.

Understood. You are just venting/musing, and no problem with that. Probably trying to make sense out of a screwed up situation.

The only thing I havnt done is NC.

.... and this is what will keep you in the crazy loop of confusion. You will not be able to quieten your mind if you have contact, as feelings will come back up towards the surface, and cloud your judgement.

Do yourself a favour, and let your heart recuperate by NC. Every contact is like picking at the scab.

You cannot cure stupid

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HeHadADoubleLife ( member #68944) posted at 7:38 AM on Thursday, July 11th, 2019

LateNight, I'm going to chime in. I think many people here have given you excellent advice, but it can't hurt to add in a little more. Be forewarned, I am the only girl in my family, I have 3 brothers, and I curse like a sailor. This is all said with love, even if it is harsh.

*A formatting note: if you want to be able to quote from multiple different posts, just open up two browser windows, then use one to browse through the various pages you want to quote from, and use the other for your reply.*

I totally get your impulse to blame yourself. I did it, and sometimes still do when I'm at my lower points. But as much as you are responsible for your actions, she is responsible for hers.

Let's flip this around. I can tell you the story of how my XH had his A. I was incredibly busy with work, but so was my XH. His two daughters lived with us full time, and the general hubbub around raising kids was stressful, of course. We were also trying to get pregnant, so I was doing all of the ovulation testing, temping, keeping a calendar etc. Plus all of my other regular things like grocery shopping, keeping track of all of our finances, booking all of the kids appointments, making lunches everyday, etc.

I had all of the same stressors in my relationship that my husband did. Add in that he is a sex addict, and I've had years of DDays/relapses due to that, I would say the scales are tipped in my favor that I was far more stressed than he is.

I also work in a field that is ripe for cheating. Traveling all of the time, and consistently seeing people in various states of undress. It is well known within my industry that people have "work wives" and "work husbands" and I don't mean the funny coworker you have lunch with sometimes. I have been hit on so many times, by both genders, that I can't even count any more. But no matter what, I always told my husband when that happened. He would always tell me, "I trust you, you don't need to tell me." And I would say, "I know I don't have to, I want to." Social media is almost worse - I get cam girls reaching out to me constantly, at least once a week. I would always screen shot their requests, then text them to my husband and say "Just so you know, I declined this." Because that is the right fucking way to handle that.

You say it's just "human nature." Well I can say with certainty that it's not. Because if ever there was a situation where someone might be predisposed to cheating, it was me, the wife of a sex addict who couldn't stop stealing her panties, and who had such bad ED that it would take hours to have sex. The woman who had access to NSA sex almost daily if she wanted it. The woman who would be gone for weeks at a time for work, and there was literally no way my XH would have EVER found out. And yet, I didn't. It is not "being human." It is the immature, childish way out.

No matter how stressed I was, no matter how much pressure I felt, no matter how angry I was with him, or our daughters, or whatever was going on at that time, I NEVER even thought about cheating. I thought about leaving him, sure. I thought about how my life might be easier without him in it. I thought about how nice it would be to come home and not wonder where I was going to find my underwear. But cheating was never even an option on the table. And when I felt angry with him, or frustrated, or sad about some situation in our lives, I put on my bad-ass-bitch panties, womaned up and had a fucking conversation with him, because that's what adults do.

But real adult conversations and constructive conflict resolution were just too much for poor baby to handle, so he chose to get his dick wet in our bed with some bitch who made it her life's work to tell him how great he was. Your GF chose to avoid conflict with you by fucking her boss (as well as other coworkers, if I recall correctly) - do those sound like the actions of a woman you want to legally tie yourself to?

When a woman has the opportunity to cheat, the potential AP gets sized up against current BF and relationship

The point is, their boundaries have to be fucked to even start sizing anyone up in the first place. You were each playing the game on two completely different playing fields - not to mention that you didn't even know you were playing!

Remember, all the AP had to do was all of the fun stuff - tell her how sexy she is, flirt with her, text and call her all the time, fuck her on demand, maybe buy her some gifts here and there. But it's fantasyland! It's not real! There is no fucking way to keep up that level of sex, romance, interest etc. when you have bills, kids, jobs, responsibilities, household chores, ailing family members, stress, health problems - you know, REAL LIFE!

You also mention the draw of money and job security. You know what else can get you more money, and job security? Doing your fucking job well!

You say if you hadn't let your guard down, if you hadn't become lazy, that maybe she wouldn't have emotionally detached enough to cheat. But she did that all on her own! She could have used that as an opportunity to lean in, to have conversations with you, to express her feelings. She could have taken up a hobby, or seen a therapist. She could have sought advice from friends or family.

She did not have to "take the cookie." She could have told you the second the "cookie" said something inappropriate. Or the time after that, or the time after that. But instead, she chose the A. Over and over, with every text, every sexual encounter, every stolen glance, she chose it. She kept stealing from the cookie jar because she chose to be weak, not because you made her weak.

Bottom line, if she perceived the reward of his penis in her vagina to be greater than the risk of losing you, then her perception was fucked, full stop. Boo fucking hoo, you weren't paying enough attention to her! She's just so damaged, poor her, she deserves pity. Woe is her, she has so many problems with her relationship with you, and she's only human, fallible after all.

Last time I checked, hopping on someone else's dick isn't the way to solve your problems, relationship or otherwise. Did we miss the part where AP has a magical penis that can wash all your troubles away? Can't pay your bills? Got a kid who just won't stop acting up? Got a boyfriend who isn't paying enough attention to you? Just give AP a ride, he'll wave his magic penis and all will be right with the world!

Except that's not how it fucking works. You know it, I know it, and anybody in their right mind knows it. Until she stops believing in supernatural, life-changing genitalia, her perception is still fucked.

I get it. You thought you were going to spend the rest of your life with this person, despite the ups and downs. Trust me, as someone who got married knowing that my XH is a sex addict, I understand that kind of mentality. No matter what, I did not quit, and I can take pride in that. But relationships take two people putting in equal work, and after an A, the cheater has to put in even more so. My XH chose not to put in that work, so I can also take pride in getting my shit and getting the fuck out of there, because I know I'm worth more than that. Do you know that you are worth more than what she is giving you?

Are cheaters irredeemable? No, not all. But so far, your cheater isn't showing any real interest in redeeming herself. You said so yourself, she is fearful, and not making an all out attempt at R. It is NOT your job to assuage her fears, in fact it should be the other way around.

Lay out your requirements for R, then go NC until she meets those requirements. Take up some hobbies. I would say it's way too early to be dating, especially if you're just using it as a ploy to get her attention (which is what it seems like to me, honestly). Get yourself into therapy. She showed you what you were worth to her - nothing she wouldn't mind trading for that mystical genie dick. You need to figure out why you feel that this woman is even worth a moment of your energy after that.

BW
DDay Nov 2018
Many previous DDays due to his sex addiction

Hurt me with the truth, but don't comfort me with a lie.

Love is never wasted, for its value does not rest upon reciprocity.

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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 8:15 AM on Thursday, July 11th, 2019

Women are emotional...

That's not an excuse. It's more like the opposite of an excuse, an anti-excuse if you will.

Women have better connectivity between the two hemispheres of the brain which allows us to identify emotional content MORE readily. IOW, we're not stifled AT ALL. We've got an interstate highway while you fellas have a winding country road. While the guys are still experiencing a "go-to" emotion like anger or fear, we've already classified and differentiated more complex emotions, like envy, inadequacy, insecurity, embarrassment, etc. Not that both genders don't enjoy a full range of human emotion. It's just that we can classify nuanced emotional signals faster. And guess what?... most of us can spin you like a top in an emotional exchange. Hence the propensity for male "flooding" in heated debate when feelings are strong and time is short. It's not that you guys don't get there. It's just that we get there faster. So, don't buy into the poor, pitiful, emotional girl-brain. We're all set.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

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Odonna ( member #38401) posted at 2:31 PM on Saturday, August 10th, 2019

LateNght,

You have been gone a month now. How are you doing?

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dblackstar2002 ( member #70704) posted at 4:55 PM on Saturday, August 10th, 2019

This is the best advice i can give, Based on the 54 years i have been on this planet. You my not want to here this but you have to tell her " I will fight for you never over you, If you are entertaining anyone else, He can have you" Then walk away. Best advice i can give you.......

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EllieKMAS ( member #68900) posted at 7:58 PM on Saturday, August 10th, 2019

The truth is, I was not looking after how my gf percieved me. Clearly her perception starting heading downhill, and when presented with an opportunity to have more, she took it. She WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN IT if I had been looking after her perception of me and she held me in higher regard. I'm not a slob, but just to make the point if you act like a slob your going to be seen as one.

I had read the beginnings of this a month or so ago and had not stayed up to date.

LateNght - No, no no. NOT, NEIN, NYET, NON.

YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR HER CHOICES. Period end of fucking sentence.

I don't care if you were a dick, if you called her names, if you ignored her for days, weeks, or months. The bottom line truth here is that SHE DID NOT COMMUNICATE HER NEEDS OR WANTS TO YOU LIKE A FUCKING ADULT. Instead she chose to do the most hurtful thing ever. And then just kept on coming back to rub salt into the wound she made. And (2x4) you let her. Over and over and over again.

She made the choice to cheat, and she can justify that to herself however she wants to. And because she sounds like a seriously fucked up dumpster fire of a person, of course her justification is going to be blaming you. Blaming mom and dad, blaming Mercury for being in the seventh house.... anything at all but looking at her damn self because she is a reprehensible person.

Man I get it - I am an adult child of an alcoholic and I have major codependency issues. Codependency happens to us when the circumstances in our lives are so out of control that it is easier to cope by saying it is us than to accept that we have zero control of the other person. It is our brains way of trying to make logic where there is none.

I know you're hurting, I know it is hard, but you need to snap the hell out of it. Get this bitch the fuck out of your life man. No one can tell you when you are done but yourself, but for a fellow codependent it has been saddening, infuriating, and a lot of other emotions reading through your responses.

From my own experience - dealing with my alcoholic parent for 20+ years - trying to police, trying to cajole, placate, understand, etc... DID NOTHING WORTHWHILE FOR ME. It kept me locked into their sickness, their needs, their wants. The day I finally truly said FUCK THIS SHIT was the best day of my life to date.

Understand, this doesn't mean you don't care about the other person, this doesn't mean you wish them ill, just that you give a greater shit about yourself and your own well being than you do about their continued shitty choices. It is the only way to take your control back. It sucks and it is really hard, but I swear when you finally do 'drop the rope' it is the most freeing and wonderful feeling ever. I am still working on getting there with my STBXWH, but I remember doing it once and I know I can and will do it again because I am fucking magical and if he is too stupid to see it then I wish him the very best of luck.

I recognize a lot of myself in your words and if nothing else anyone has said to you has sunk in I don't know if this will but I'm'a say it anyways cus hope springs eternal: YOU DID NOTHING TO CAUSE HER CRAP DECISIONS. SHE IS AN ADULT THAT IS CLEARLY NOT CAPABLE OF BEING A DECENT PERSON. IF YOU STAY IN CONTACT AT THIS POINT YOU ARE BEING COMPLICIT IN YOUR OWN ABUSE. AND FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND HOLY PRIORITZE YOURSELF AND YOUR NEEDS AND YOUR WANTS ABOVE HERS. THAT IS NOT SELFISHNESS, THAT IS SURVIVAL AND PRUDENCE.

I know what that cognitive dissonance is like - looking at this person and seeing what was. It blows. But my dear if you do not get serious in a hurry about getting rid of this toxicity, you are doing nothing but lining yourself up for months and years of further pain. And one more nugget to consider - when you do hopefully move on, you will keep falling into these same traps over and over again until you take the steps needed here to work on your own self. It is ok to be a work in progress; it is not OK to refuse to do anything to help yourself and then complain about bad shit happening that you keep allowing in. When I was in the throes of dealing with my alcoholic parent, one of my best friends lost her shit on me and said something very similar. It stung, but for me that was the slap of reality I needed for some key light bulbs to turn on.

I have read this entire thing over the course of the morning, and I don't know what more proof you need here that this person is like emotional cancer to you. No amount of words, prayers, or anything any of us say will matter until you decide to get your own self off of this shitty merry go round and start looking at the realities.

All of that being said, my heart hurts for you and I do sincerely hope you are taking the steps you need to take here.

"No, it's you mothafucka, here's a list of reasons why." – Iliza Schlesinger

"The love that you lost isn't worth what it cost and in time you'll be glad that it's gone." – Linkin Park

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