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I know where you're coming from. You want to eliminate your kids' suffering. But it's just not possible. The kids will suffer a little. It's the reality of divorce. What you can do is be the best parent you can in your time with them. This threat of kids not participating if your parents come, that's on her. If that's what she thinks is in their best interest, good for her. She knows how to push your buttons. You have to send a consistent message across. It can't be ignoring her for a while then taking the bait. Maybe she changes when you stop reacting to her provocations. Unlikely but it's the best case scenario.

I have a stipulation in my divorce decree that we must agree upon outside activities and sports, but if either parent is unable or unwilling to get the children to these activities, the other parent can do so regardless of whose custody time it falls on. So, once it’s agreed the kids will play football or take ballet classes, either parent can take the kid regardless of whose “day” it is if the parent with custody time that day cannot or will not take them. I put this in there precisely to avoid this sort of power play over refusing to take them to their activities. Don’t want to take them because of whatever reason? Fine. I’ll do it.

That said, if your parents are actually engaging with her in any way at these activities, that needs to stop.

I would email her back that you and your family will agree to cease any and all interactions at activists, sports, and events and hope the children do not need to lose out on their activities due to her refusing to take them.

I just went through my first year after separation this last Feb. What worked for me was to keep all holidays and birthdays seperated. It was hard as hell man but you and the kids can adjust. Your stbx sounds like mine. I heard "You are to much of a pussy since you won't go out trick or treating with DD10" it hurt since I did but here I am and all is good. I did my own thing for their birthdays. Mini golf/arcade, movies and dinner out! She took them to Disneyland to be Disneyland Mom. My kids loved each of the oudramad. Seperate is the best way. No need to contact each other over stupid little things that you really don't need to. NC truly saved my sanity. I didn't know until I aplied it. Those little "If your parents this and that" are bullshit things you don't need.

As far as the kids sports events and school activities, ANYBODY can show up. She don't like it, oh well. She is not going to take them if your parents show up, fucking grow up. This should be about the kids but as you know she is all that matters. There should never be any bad mouthing or arguments at these events, not saying there is.

I'm almost D and rarely text or email my stbx. Only about the kids and keep it very short and on point. She used to try and fish and get a reaction out of me. Now, I respond with 1 or 2 words or give the details that are needed. She lays off me now. Will it stay that way, I hope so! Hard NC and seperated bdays and holidays will save you a lot of unnecessary bullshit drama!

She replies overnight that "it's not good for our kids

NOW she's concerned about the children?! Now?! It would've appeared genuine had she not been sleeping around while married. You not replying was the right way to go. She can have her tantrum by herself, total radio silence from you will send a clear message. Great job not backing down on your parents being st the games. Holy hell she must think she's super special.

Separate, separate, separate. NC as much as possible. Communicate only in writing (paper trail).

Let her do her thing with the kids on her time. You do your thing on your time. Make sure you are on the contact list for all school events. You and your parents can go to any public event you want. Just sit on opposite sides of room/field/gym and don't interact.

She handed you a legal golden nugget with that email response. It shows she clearly does not have the best interests of the kids at heart, and she is clearly willing to deny them activities for spite. THAT never goes over well with judges. Let her hang herself. Tuck that gem away and sit back and watch her actions. Document, document, document.

Now you know not to engage or do joint anything. "I'm sorry you feel that way" or "That doesn't work for me" should become routine responses for any verbal communication that goes sideways. Then walk away.

Just continue to be the stable, strong, supportive parent. Your kids WILL notice.

She handed you a legal golden nugget with that email response. It shows she clearly does not have the best interests of the kids at heart, and she is clearly willing to deny them activities for spite. THAT never goes over well with judges. Let her hang herself.

I thought this too. Give her the rope, and let her hang herself. If this continues you will have enough evidence to possibly get the SA modified, to protect your children's best interests from her using them as pawns.

Also, as your kids age, her stance of denying them sports, will not fly at all. She's not thought at all about organized sports in middle and high school.

Can you see she is throwing a grown up tantrum? She's trying to manipulate everyone. No different than a kid screaming I'm taking my ball and going home....problem is her ball is the kids.

Can you also see how consistent her responses are? None of her behavior is surprising. Use this to your advantage. These types are often easy to outfox because their sense of superiority and arrogance blind them to reality.

Play the long game, be patient and wise, and count on SI to help you figure out your path.

I agree that your XW is really showing her hand far too much in these emails.

I would ask your attorney, but I would think that if the event, i.e. birthday party is written in the custody agreement to be held jointly, then it doesn't matter if it falls on a day that would typically be your or your XW's custody day, it is a special event that is treated differently. For example, my XW and I rotate holidays, like Thanksgiving. Typically my kids are with me Thursday and Friday, but the rules are different for that holiday. So since the BD party is a "joint event", she cannot exclude anyone as she actually doesn't have custody that day.

Sporting events would be different, but she obviously can't exclude people from a public space. If she follows through on her threat, and doesn't take the kids, then you have more evidence that she is breaking the agreement.

Thanks everyone, this is very helpful.

I've opted to ask my parents not to come to the birthday, or rather that I don't need their help. This isn't a big problem and isn't worth the battle. We've already done our own separate party with him and that's obviously the way to go in the future. I really appreciate people describing their experiences and I'll be working towards more NC. This has been difficult because a part of me still feels that my kids hurt less when mom and dad are "grown ups who work together on issues."

At the sporting events, my parents avoid her as much as possible. They feel betrayed as well, and were mistreated by her after D-day in my opinion. I think they are also enraged because STBX's parents have taken the "our ears are plugged" stance over the past year - I've just let sleeping dogs lie there. That, and I've yet to meet a soul who thinks it's "fair" for me to be obligated to pay her tens of thousands of dollars in spousal for maybe a decade and to assume all family debts for the luxury of my own freedom from deceit. Them's the breaks.

Her complaint isn't that my family is harassing her; it's that my son is distressed by seeing them sit apart from her. On one occasion (allegedly) STBX sat beside them, and they moved their chair away. Not ideal, but everyone is learning and there's only so much I can do to coach my parents around no-conflict interactions. I think she's exaggerating my son's distress as I wasn't aware of it (though I coach the team and didn't see any of this), and now that she's mentioned it I'll talk with him tomorrow when he's back with me.

I'm going to book with a family therapist to explore this specific question of extended family. It's becoming increasingly clear that my 10 year old is having difficulty making sense of things because what we tell him ("mom and dad weren't in love any more and had some disagreements") doesn't really explain how she has become persona non grata.

On that last point, before someone says "tell your kids everything," I'll just explain that I'm wary of speaking ill of their mom, who of course they need and gave them 50% of their genetics. Unfortunately the truth hurts here. There's a balance to be struck between protecting their relationship with their mother (which must be connected to their own self-worth) and avoiding building a fantasy world around them which could lead to them feeling betrayed in the future (eg. when a family member blurts something out in 5 years) or becoming confused about the nature of relationships themselves.

Ugh I hate that she has put us in situations like this.

There's a balance to be struck between protecting their relationship with their mother (which must be connected to their own self-worth) and avoiding building a fantasy world around them which could lead to them feeling betrayed in the future (eg. when a family member blurts something out in 5 years) or becoming confused about the nature of relationships themselves.

I applaud the sentiment, but here's the reality. You are NOT responsible for protecting, nurturing, or supporting the relationship between your DS and his mother. Their relationship is 100% between them, and you should stay out of it. That does NOT mean bashing mom, or spilling all the gory details. That means being honest, not lying by omission, and answering every question your DS has truthfully. All in an age appropriate manner.

Please do explore this in therapy. Your DS needs to know he has at least one honest, supportive parent that he can count on. Remember, he is learning how to navigate relationships by watching you. What do you want him to learn from this? To have boundaries, not accept disrespect from a spouse or SO, and have the strength and feeling of self-worth to end it, I hope.

Your DS can absolutely be told his mother broke promises (vows), had a boyfriend, and you couldn't remain married because of it. That is not bashing or alienating him. It's an age appropriate truth he can understand.

Just be prepared for questions going forward as he processes things. Always answer honestly. Don't whitewash to protect his mother. The truth hurts, but it is more healthy than nurturing lies. Lies hurt more. They also build resentment, and that resentment will be focused on who has lied (even by omission).

My youngest DD thanked me profusely for being honest with her, and she told me most emphatically that she would have resented me if I hadn't. She's an adult now, and knows everything (she asked a lot of questions over the years). She also said that the puzzle pieces of things she had seen and heard regarding her father fell into place over time (kids see/hear more than you realize). She needed those gaps filled. If kids don't have information, they may fill those gaps with erroneous information (their own narrative), possibly wrongly taking some blame. Age appropriate honesty. Always.

We’ve been separated s heat and I have gone through some of this. Both sides is the family are great people. He can be totally disagreeable and unfair and ridiculous at times. He doesn’t not think through things. I get it.

I agree that I extend invite aria to church, school, sports events etc as it is public and what is best for the kids. We have been able to so some big joint event s but I had to be harsh with him. I had to fight fire with fire. It isn’t the way I am but I had to reason on his level.

That is fine. I accept that as long as you do the same in return. Then of the party falls on my day then your family is not invited. If I can’t take my kids out of town than I will say no when you ask. It may take a bit but he starts to rethink his position. I make it about him and what he will lose or gain. I’m not joking is is all he really sees..what he loses in a scenario. It isn’t about the kids. I keep it about him

I hope you find a solution

[This message edited by Jesusismyanchor at 7:44 PM, June 22nd (Saturday)]

Phoenix, I think I've asked you before, but how old was your youngest at the time?

Early on I was planning to tell the kids about the broken promises, but I was convinced by the local mandatory "parenting in divorce program" not to. The framework presented was keep marital details away from kids, because some kids will internalize a parent's wrongdoing as a kind of personal defect of their own. I agree that in some cases - like mom's five year relationship with my son's best friend's dad leading us to ghost that family, and now the schism between STBX and my entire extended family - you wind up wrapping your kid in more lies.

I'm seeing a child/adolescent/family therapist tomorrow (alone) to explore all of this a bit further. However tonight I will talk to my son about why grandma won't sit with mom in the most general terms possible.

How old are your kids? Mine were 10 and 16. I found out through my kids so they basically already knew. DS16 was like wtf. DD10 was confused at first since he was just a "friend" then weeks later was her BF. I talked to both of them and simply said that you don't have a BF or a GF while you're married. That we had vows and promises that mom broke. I could write a book on all the details I uncovered but my kids don't need to know any of that. I think age appropriate also depends on the individual and their maturity level. You know your kids better than anyone.

It's wonderful you are working so hard to do the best for your kids' emotional well-being. Good on you.

When kids don't understand something and are confused/scared they almost always internalize the blame. They think, if only I did ________ maybe Mommy and Daddy would ________.

or:

Maybe grandma hates my mom because of something I did.

Kids will try to fill in the blanks....and lots of time the way they fill in the blanks is not rational because they are too small to see the big picture and they lack experience.

I agree that age appropriate truth is the best. You want your children knowing in their soul that you will never gaslight them. Omitting info is actually lying to them, and confusing them because they do not have all the cards, which is gaslighting them.

The truth is never wrong nor bad. The truth is the truth.

They need to know Dad is honest, always.

My youngest was 16 when I kicked her father out under very heated circumstances. She was blindsided, and demanded an explanation. I gave it to her in very generic terms. Yes, I had to take that mandatory parenting class, too. But while the whole "leave kids out of marital problems" sounds good, it is doing kids a disservice by treating them like they are stupid and incapable of rational thought. Kids are MUCH smarter than they are often given credit for, but their brains are not fully developed and some things (gory details) shouldn't be shared until they are older, if ever. Some of the things my DD told me she had heard (overheard phone conversations) really pissed me off (toward her father). He thought he was being all sneaky. Nope. She also recognized the fact that he was using a cell phone she had never seen before (burner phone). I also recognized my DD was incredibly mature for her age, and that also guided my responses. Her very quick thinking resulted in a litany of rational, well thought questions. It was hard keeping up with how fast her mental wheels were spinning as she pieced things together from her entire life (her father was cheating since before she was born and one OC is a month younger than her).

Yes, she was older, but my advice is always the same. Age/maturity appropriate truth. Lies are hard to keep up with. The truth frees you from that. Then let it evolve over time. Take cues from the kid. I promised my kids the truth, and I've done just that. They know (and trust) they can ask me anything, and they do, and get a truthful answer. On the other hand, they know every word out of their father's mouth is a lie (he's pathological). They recognize they get some of their DNA from their father, but they also routinely ask (joking) when I will finally admit they are our old postal delivery guy's kids.

I am not suggesting at all that you discourage a relationship with their mother. I told my kids I would support whatever relationship they had with their father that THEY chose to have. I didn't try to sway them either way with that. I let them navigate it all the way.

Please do discuss with your therapist, but I hope this therapist is experienced with infidelity. We've seen some situations here where therapists have given shit advice. Your kids need at least one honest parent in their life. Be that parent.

[This message edited by Phoenix1 at 1:30 PM, June 23rd (Sunday)]

FWIW, I've been on both sides, Unspecified. My mom and I will never be as close as we could’ve been, because she never told me the truth. My parents separated when I was 13 and my sister was 9. Divorce was final two years later. Dad remarried around a year or so after that, and then died about a year after that. My parents did a great job of not talking badly about each other, and stuck to the “grew apart” sort of reason why. They were civil at events, but didn't interact a ton. My mom wouldn’t talk about much of anything, really, except for occasionally something snarky would slip about my stepmother.

While in college, after he died, I spent a lot of time thinking back, and realized that I’d met my stepmother a while before my parents split, that she worked for/with my dad, that she was already mid-divorce when I first met her, that she stopped returning my calls a few months after he died, and pieced it all together on my own.

It wasn’t until a few years ago, that I finally confided some bits of Ex having a gf to my mother, once Ex was finally moved out for good and the divorce started. She still hasn’t told me the full story about her and my dad, and I doubt she ever will (I don’t bother asking), but she’s dropped enough hints and complaints that I know the bones of what happened. I know enough, also, to understand why I picked Ex in the first place, and my dad’s behavior was basically it. But I didn’t see it beforehand because I didn’t know the truth.

She hid a huge part of my life from me, so I’m going to keep on hiding most of my story from her. *shrug* It makes me a little sad sometimes, but she set the ground rules this way. My own kids don’t know all the details about their dad, but they know he cheated, and that’s why we split (18 & 13 at the time). And they know I’ll always answer their questions. I don’t want them to feel they can’t talk to me, the way I can’t talk to my mother.