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Hi,

My WW has Recently been showing strong signs for R. And really wants to R. Read my bio for the whole story. She has become 100% transparent. NC with AP. She is writing down and finding her issues and tackling them. She is coming to me with typical marital issues that she has with me (something she wouldn't do before). She is apologizing profusely and is sweet and kind and loving to me. I asked her 2 nights ago why she thinks she deserves R, and she says she doesn't deserve it and feels incredibly grateful I'd attempt R, if that's what I chose. I asked her how she could do all the crap she did to me and she said she was selfish and it's a crappy answer but it is true. She listens to me now and actually follows my advice when I give it, which she used to never really do.

I'm waiting to see if these changes are consiatant, and genuine. I think it'll take me 3 months of seeing this consistently, before I'll attempt R. I also will need a postnuptual agreement in place. I have a few issues that we need to get over before I'll attempt R, that my WW doesn't want to comply with. Wondering if I can get some input to see if I'm out of line or if it's reasonable.

1. I want a written time-line. She gave me a verbal one and answers any questions that I ask. I feel like she has disclosed everything. She won't give me a written time-line because she is scared I'll use it against her in court if we do get divorced.

2. I want a postnup, which she is reluctantly complying with. Basically we agree to everything on the postnup, except alimony. We've only been married for 4.5 years. And I haven't really started making money till 3 years ago when I started my career. I feel like since she cheated one of those 3 years, and that she f-ing cheated. She doesn't deserve any alimony period if we got divorced! My issue moving forward in our marriage is if we stay married for 10 years, and then she cheats again, I'm out a lot more in alimony for another 10 years. It's a huge risk I'm taking staying married to her, and I feel like removing the penalty of alimony would mitigate that risk.

3. I struggle with my wife being a SAHM. I feel like I've been taken advantage of and made to be a joke, but at my expense. I'd be ok with being a SAHD, but I want her bringing in money. I think she's taken advantage of my ambition and I am letting the past cake eating get to me..... I hate entitlement!!!! (not your typical millennial, I am very independent)

My wife wants one of us to raise the kids, no daycare. And the issue is, do I quit my job, be a SAHD, while she works making half of what I make? I do real estate on the side, and can continue to do that and make a lot more. Maybe I haven't explored my options enough. I am looking for advice on this one though.

[This message edited by RedHeadTemper at 8:38 AM, November 4th (Monday)]

I would do the postnup and see if it takes care of #3 for you. If you had the security of knowing what the agreement would be should it come to divorce, you may feel like you are okay with continuing the arrangement where she is caring for your kids?

I also think if you had the postnup, it would take care of the concerns she has for #1 for her. You would already have a divorce agreement pretty much. She also may see that postnup and not want #3 because she may feel more of a need to build her career back so she can take care of herself should R be unsuccessful.

So, my only advice is do #2 first for the stated reasons. It will be expensive from what I understand, but that should at least let you both move forward.

Written time line - good requirement - if she won't do this, D. I recommend getting a TL and asking questions to fill it out, or just work together to create it. If you ask the questions, you drive the process and stand a better chance of getting the TL you want.That's based on my experience with a W who thinks way differently than I do.

Alimony - is this really important to you, or is it your anger speaking? If it's really important, stick to it, but....

My understanding is that courts will not intervene in a settlement that both partners agree to, but my bet is that the post-nup will lose if she contests it, which means: if you D after 10 years, the settlement will have to give her something to get her to agree to give up lifetime alimony.

Stay at home D/M - do you really want to stay home with a little one? What will happen when the little ones start school?

I get not wanting to work, but caring for kids is WORk, and it's very poorly paid.

It would seem like a WW who wants to R would be more receptive to the terms. I just have a few questions:

1. Regarding the timeline, if you are sure she hasn’t left anything out, and you believe what she’s offered so far, why do you want it? Do you plan to use it in court if R doesn’t work out? It may not be admissible in your state. Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely think she should provide it if you want it. As should any WS. I just wonder if you’re explaining to her the reasoning behind it. R only works with full disclosure on both sides.

2. Make sure your postnup is enforceable in your state. Some states do not recognize it and you can end up paying anyway. As a SAHM, she is likely worried about her income should you divorce. She doesn’t deserve any alimony for having cheated. But what I’m saying is she may agree to it now and then in a divorce her attorney may advise her differently.

3. Absolutely agree. She should get a job and contribute to the finances of the home. This will be in your favor not only if the marriage survives, but if it doesn’t, the judge will use her income and potential earnings to calculate child support and maintenance if it is allowed. In my opinion, this is the most crucial piece of your requests.

How is her behavior otherwise? Is she a truly remorseful wayward?

[This message edited by Marie2792 at 1:55 PM, November 4th (Monday)]

It would seem like a WW who wants to R would be more receptive to the terms.

I debate that to some degree. It sounds like they might be in a state that hasn't gotten rid of the at fault part. Depending on what skills she had prior to marriage, she may be concerned about being able to support their children in the event of a divorce. If she writes it down, she could be putting that in jeopardy. While she shouldn't have cheated, and cheating in essence is really putting that in jeopardy, reality may be sinking in. I don't think it has to do with remorse, but that he's not giving any signals that he wants to work it out. So, by writing it down she may be fearful of legal recourse.

One can argue that a remorseful WS would do anything that was asked, that they would make the divorce proceedings easy for the BS. I followed that protocol. But, I was not a SAHM with little kids at home that I was terrified of how I would support them adequately.

That's why I think if they did the postnup (if it's admissible for divorce proceedings - that's a really good call because I understand they are expensive to get drawn up to begin with), then she wouldn't have those things to point at. He is saying she disclosed everything verbally to him, so it's not sounding like she's stonewalling him.

As for changes to her work status - I think it's really in her best interest to work anyway. She is already put herself in a precarious position and obviously concerned with what happens if they split. But, in all reality, there are many times you can't really work enough to justify childcare costs, so the only people who suffer from it are potentially children who will have to adjust to doing something different. It's not unsurmountable, in many ways day care can be good for kids, but if it's not really helping towards contributing to anything, that's really not the best solution. I think instead, it's interesting that her staying at home with them isn't seen a contribution on it's own. I worked the entire time my children grew up, and domestic duties really took up a good deal of free time H and I could have had to put somewhere else (dates, time together, etc). She is contributing and it does have some financial contributions in regards to saving on childcare, the OP probably doesn't have to leave work much when they are sick, etc. I think the whole thing is you are feeling financially taken advantage of, but that may or may not be reality. I would say if the prenup is an option, draw that up first and see if it paints a different picture for either of you. Stay at home parents tend to work very hard, I did real estate for a period of time when our youngest was small, and it was impossible to work a lot of hours with her at home. I just wouldn't want your anger to cloud the issue to the extent you create something you wish you hadn't.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:27 PM, November 4th (Monday)]

I want the time line to be able to have everything sorted out and on paper. Gaslighting sucks. It would be a tool to sort out things in my head, understand what the heck happened this last year, keep my wife honest about what transpired, and to bring about and use for any further questions I might have. And to avoid any future gaslightimg should my wife have a change of heart. I wouldn't care to use it in a court. Idk why my WW doesn't trust me. I've been an open book and let her know my intentions from the day we met. I think she thinks I'll use it as evidence to get full custody. I don't think she interstands how divorse works, and I probably don't either. But I want my kids to be very inbolved in my wife's life. I just don't see where she's coming from.

However is she remorseful? She's very very open and has even brought things up that she thinks I might want to know without me asking. She's literally turned into the almost perfect wife. Communicating, apologizing, changing, listening, comforting and giving space when I need it.

I found out that my state doesn't allow a post nup to refuse to pay alimony. I guess I don't want to pay for alimony because it's my hard earned sweated stressed over cash that I went above and beyond to make happen. And it eats me up that my POS WW lives comfortably and takes advantage of me while having an affair. It also scares me to death that I'm risking future alimony payments of a lot of $$$ for a cheater who's already comfortably backstabbed and betrayed me. I make a lot of money off of real estate, and my career job is good paying too (~80k/year). And the direction things are going, I'm going to make a lot more off of real estate. If we D'ed now, I'd probably pay 1k/month in alimony for 3-4 years. If I D'ed in 5 years because she cheated again or whatever, I'd probably pay 4-5k/month in alimony for 10 years. That's way too much cash for a cheater. And I wonder if it is motivation for her to 'try and work things out'. I want her to try and work things out because she realizes that she needs to change, and because she genuinely loves me. She's got a degree and would probably make 40k starting out if she were to find a job. So if I was to be a SAHD doing real estate, and she worked, we would take an initial pay check cut until I made up for it with more time to do real estate.

Part of the issue for me too, is I want her to agree that she doesn't deserve it. Maybe that's the underlining issue. Is I still think she's an entitled brat, and I don't like entitled people. And if she thinks she's entitled to financial support while she free loaded on me, and cheated, I don't want to stay married. I'd rather she go marry a typical male (or female), and realize how much less she would have, and how difficult they would find to get along with her. I'm a catch! And she should see that. I really shouldn't settle for her. But if she makes changes, she can be a catch too. So I'm getting hopeful with the changes that she's making.

Yes she seems to be very remorseful. No, I don't know what changed for her to become remorseful, but I've communicated this all to her. I don't understand why she is making these few things an issue. All 3 of these things honestly benefit her (except no alimony) . I can refer to the timeline instead of pestering her or asking repeated questions. It would help me process the affair which is to her benefit. A postnup would help us both feel safe and not fear D in the future.

Her working would help her feel financially secure and building good relationships with coworkers would be healthier for her than staying home 24/7 with infants and toddlers. (she's an introvert). I don't know how I can move forward though in my marraige without mitigating that financial risk, and feeling like I could possibly enable entitled behavior.

^^^^^^^^^hiking out you nailed it on the head. That is exactly what we are both feeling.

I understand that my wife is bringing value to the home and kids by being a sahm. But I feel like I'd come home (during the affair) and have to do the laundry, pick up the house, cook and clean dinner, put 2/3 kids to bed, while she was out in fantasy land with her boo. It sucks that my WW used our money to pay for their dates. During the affair it pissed me off that she would never play a roll in finances or planning. And when I tried, I was bullied into thinking I'm trying to control her through finances. It was a means of blameshifting. It's a hard thing for me to get past.

The other note is we have the kids in daycare 2x/week for 8 hrs so my wife can have a break. I do believe that she suffers from postpartum depression, and getting the break probably helped her get her head out of her butt. But still. A sahm, that is really a 3day out of the week gig? I don't even get a break. This is probably a typical marital issue that is just amplified 100x because of an affair.

She's a great mom by the way. I'm really impressed at how well my WW interacts and prioritizes the kids. I have told her this often.

[This message edited by RedHeadTemper at 3:08 PM, November 4th (Monday)]

Okay, this info helps.

I think she should give you a timeline, I didn't mean it to sound like I didn't. I just meant it didn't necessarily mean she was unremorseful that it made her uncomfortable. She should definitely provide it.

The postnup sounds like it may not be worth the money to draw it up. My H and I actually drew up divorce papers (we thought we were divorcing), that exercise alone gave him some comfort because he could see how it would all work. I do think that because I did what I did, I tried to make it easy on him. And, I think that's what you are saying - you want recognition she isn't entitled to it.

As far as this:

And if she thinks she's entitled to financial support while she free loaded on me, and cheated, I don't want to stay married

I am going to tread gently on this particular area, because I know you are angry with her (understandably) but I wonder why you think a SAHM is a free loader? Does she not take care of her responsibilities? I get that financially you don't see the contribution, but she takes care of your children, does the wash, the dishes, the shopping, the cooking? Or she does not do any of these things and just stays home? Honest questions, I do know many SAHM's who are the hardest working involved parents I know. And, I know SAHM's who are really just sitting around watching tv while the house falls apart around them. I want to understand the attitude where because she doesn't work at an employer that she is a free loader?

I don't think your expectations are unreasonable, btw. I only spoke up that I didn't think that some of it pointed at lack of remorse either. At least without the further information that you just gave.

Edited to add - oh, you answered my questions, we only cross posted. I understand what you are saying. Thank you for clarifying.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:14 PM, November 4th (Monday)]

Maybe she can work part-time, the kids go to day care an extra day or something? I can see where you are coming from on this. Paid for dates with your money? Yes, that's a hard pill to swallow too.

Thanks for helping me clear up confusion. These are big issues for us and I don't want to make bad decisions. I know anger and fear are playing a lot in this. But being a businessman that really avoids anything emotional, I want to try and mitigate my risk. And my wife is super super risky since she had an affair. And I know I can get over it and heal if she can help mitigate that risk. A part time job is great advice, but I do want her to build a career too. It would help benifit her and help her feel financially secure. Also I don't think I can get past the blameshifting that I'm trying to control her with finances. She also said many times that she would have divorced me already had it not been for her not feeling financially stable. I get worried my wife became a gold digger. When we got married we had nothing,both in college and working minimum wage jobs. So she didn't start out like that.

Lately she is participating in financial planning and is following the budget that she helped create. I think she thinks that's enough. But for me it isn't. I don't want to seem controlling, but those are almost deal breakers for me. (but from my other thread I've got going on in general, I don't really trust myself too much at the moment either). So I really appreciate everyone's feedback and advice on here.

[This message edited by RedHeadTemper at 3:27 PM, November 4th (Monday)]

She also said many times that she would have divorced me already had it not been for her not feeling financially stable.

Yep, that's a big problem. A big one.

^^^^^^that was during the affair too. But now she says pretty much the opposite. She mentions my good qualities, even many she's never noticed before (really suprised me). I dunno if she's changed for real now or not. Time will tell. I also wonder if she was just trying to get under my skin during the affair, so she could continue her affair.

[This message edited by RedHeadTemper at 3:38 PM, November 4th (Monday)]

So, I think the 10 year mark of marriage is the *magical* one.

I don't think you need to decide anything right now.

IMVHO, I think you should go ahead and divorce now.

The things you are asking for, maybe your wife can't give you. I think what you are asking for requires your wife to fundamentally change in a way people don't do. I'm actually the primary breadwinner, working two jobs like you. I also am the BS.

I still don't value someone in terms of their income. I never will. That's a hold over from my parent's era, and something I don't care to be a part of. I don't feel like I'm a catch because I work two jobs. I don't feel like my husband is less of a catch because he works part time. My mom was a complete SAHP. She's no less of a person because she didn't work a whole lot after I came along.

So, what if your wife feels like I do?

You also mention your wife is an introvert. You don't snap your fingers and make introverts extroverts. It doesn't work like that. If your wife is seriously wired to get get emotionally drained around people, why force that on her?

What puzzles me is that you say your wife is a brat. Was she not a brat when you got married? How did she feel about being entitled in general? Did she have a work ethic when you all were dating or not? Honestly, I feel like people are either born with a work ethic or not. Just like they are introverts or extroverts.

I honestly don't think people's core/core values/wiring change all that much.

Unfortunately, the law really doesn't care about what you think your wife deserves or doesn't deserve. If you feel that strongly about taking punitive measures on your wife, divorce now.

You all can stay together, be in a relationship, and raise a family without having the protection of the marital contract. I would just then make sure your other legal documents, like wills and what not are up to date.

Marrying someone is risky business. Staying married is risky business. The only way you will not expose your risk is if you divorce and never get involved with anyone else.

Secondtime

Thanks for the advice. When we got married (and the first 2 years of our marraige my wife worked and she worked hard. Strong work ethic and motivated. She wasn't a brat nor was she entitled. She didn't really accept anything unless she worked for it. When she was having an affair it was the exact opposite.

My wife is an introvert in the sense that she doesn't like attention. But she really enjoys communicating with people and having friends (where she doesnt feel like she wants to do that cause she's 'stuck at home all day with the kids'). You sound like me in that you're ambitious efficient and good at managing your time. I don't need my wife to be like that. I do want my wife to be financially responsible, and not blame me for us not having enough money. We both can make more or save more. Blame it on both of us. That is my mentality, but when she had an affair, and she got entitled and became a brat, I guess I'm worried that she changed into that.

I see what your saying with risk and marraige. Anyone can cheat and screw someone over. I feel like her doing these things would help mitigate risk. And would help her.

Also I don't place my worth in money and how much I make. I place it on how much I love and care for the ones I love. I love my wife a lot. I help out with anything and everything i can and I enjoy doing it. But I do second guess my worth since the affair. It helps that everyone on my wife's side of the family have talked to her in the past year and told her how incredible of a husband I am and they wish they had a spouse that loved and cared for her like I do. I'm not trying to be cocky, just trying to say what I mean when I say I'm a catch. I didn't feel like one during or after the affair.

Also what do you mean by magical number 10? Id like insight. I'd have D'ed already, except for financial investments and kids. I love my wife too, but I figure if she snaps out of it (which it appears she is seeming that way) I'd even R without the kids and investment.

If you can’t stand to take the risk, go head and divorce now..You will likely minimize the financial obligations that build up as the years go by, the longer you stay married..

You will be on the hook for some payout to her, whether or not it’s alimony...It is what it is, very shitty and unfair..

She will likely be entitled to 1/2 your pension, and all other assets that were earned while married..Cutting your losses after 5 years is better than divorcing after 30 years of marriage..

If she loves YOU, she’ll agree to a divorce with your terms/ requirements for your protection..

Then you can rebuild the relationship from the ground up, if you decide that you still want each other in your lives..

Successful readjustment to life on your own for each of you will lend tons of clarity..6 months apart may give each of you fresh eyes as to whether or not you really want to be married..

It is possible to be lovers, besties, significant others without having the financial entanglement that legal marriage or cohabitation requires..This lifestyle is very common in my age group..

[This message edited by doggiediva at 4:39 PM, November 4th (Monday)]

I want to try and mitigate my risk. And my wife is super super risky since she had an affair. And I know I can get over it and heal if she can help mitigate that risk

That is my issue with this. She is the risk. She has been the risk in the marriage. Not you. Yet she is focused on mitigating her own much smaller risk.

She wants one parent to be stay at home. What do you want? It is reasonable to ask her to follow a longet term path to contribute equally financially.

I would not personally be able to tolerate her requests. There's no hurry in deciding.

What if you become the SAHD and do real estate on the side while the WW becomes the breadwinner. Plan to do this until the kids are in school or until you hit the 10 year mark which seems it may be around the same time. If you are feeling better about the marriage continue to R. If you don't think it is going to work, D and then you get alimony!

We did a post nup and you can include that in case of a divorce your retirement, certain assets, and other investments are considered yours only. This may help offset any alimony that you may have to pay.

Good luck!

[This message edited by ILINIA at 10:23 PM, November 4th (Monday)]

I am going to repeat what doggiediva said if you love her and would R without the financial risk, why not divorce and stay together? I wouldn't even say to separate if you don't want to, that would be harder on the kids, and if you really think you can do this under these circumstances why put them through that unless you have to? I know this is extreme, but if you need financial safety, and you can't get it via postnup, you will divorce anyway.

If you want her to write a time line she should do it, if you divorce and stay together, her reason for not doing it will be gone. I personally think she should be willing to do anything to make you feel as secure as you can. It doesn't matter if it will damage her, she should be thinking about repairing the damage she did to you.

That being said, she looks like she is moving in a good direction. It can take a while for someone to get totally out of the cheating mindset. Some of what she is doing that makes you feel like she doesn't trust you could be remnants of that, and given some time she could turn the corner on that too. My WS took a while to get to "I will do anything even if in the end you decide that you can't stay". It happened slowly, bit by bit. Every step he took towards it felt like he was "there" to me, until he took the next one. Then I could see where he was before wasn't "there".

Give yourself some time before you make a decision. Things could change dramatically. I personally set a 4 month decision free aclamating time. I didn't want to decide something so important when I was in a freak out. I want to be more steady than I have been. Things have changed a lot for the better because my WS is doing the work. I am starting to think we can actually do this most of the time. If he wasn't doing what I need, I would be gone in January.

As far as you staying home, that would make it harder for you to leave if you need to, and your kids will lose the benefits of your income. I don't have a suggestion for how to deal with that other than gently suggesting you address your willingness to take up her slack. This is part of why you feel taken advantage of. I say that as someone who did the same. Don't think I blame you for being caring understanding spouse. What she did is on her alone. Just like my WS. Once I saw how I had accepted his crappy behavior (I thought there were reasons mostly mental health ones), and that I was not going to do that any more, I started to have some faith in myself again. If you are like me, when you tell her you need her to do the laundry or the dishes instead of making or accepting her excuses, you will feel less taken advantage of. You start to know you will stand up to her bad behavior instead of just loving her through whatever she does to you. I hope this isn't getting muddled, but I realized I could trust myself even if I didn't trust him. If you see what I mean.

Last thing I will say is my husband and I have agreed that he has a spending limit. He has to tell me if he spends anything over it. If he doesn't there will be consequences. It could be just an intense talk, separation, or divorce depending on what it was and where, that is up to me. You set what you need for R she earns it by doing what you need. I am dealing with financial betrayal too, so I get how complex that is, and how damn much it hurts. Would it help you if she worked until she paid you what she spent outside your marriage? Maybe having a limit could get her past what is blocking her, and you knowing she is making retribution could help you with feeling taken advantage of. It's a thought anyway.

1. I want a written time-line. She gave me a verbal one and answers any questions that I ask. I feel like she has disclosed everything. She won't give me a written time-line because she is scared I'll use it against her in court if we do get divorced.

My take is that she is not all in. Her reluctance is the give away. She likely need to explore her sexuality with a therapist. You can R, but if she willing to throw everything away for someone else . . . that is a pretty good sign that she could see herself happier there. What has changed? Why are you suddenly the best option? Kids? Finances? She needs to be all in for for the right reasons or at least she needs to be honest with you. She knows there is more than enough to bury reputation already. She has not fully accepted her responsibility for this. Plus let's be frank. If she showed real remorse she wouldn't be trying so hard to avoid consequences for her actions would she ? Is her "reputation" really more important than saving your M ? Based on her behavior it sounds like it does. That is someone who playing the part until a better option emerges. Think about that for a minute. She is complying right now. None of this is meant to heal anything. That is just pretending to be someone she is not hoping that this will go away.She needs IC in the worst way. If she refuses she needs to hit rock bottom before she will actually want to change. Right now she is pretending to change without actually doing it.

2. I want a postnup, which she is reluctantly complying with. Basically we agree to everything on the postnup, except alimony. We've only been married for 4.5 years. And I haven't really started making money till 3 years ago when I started my career. I feel like since she cheated one of those 3 years, and that she f-ing cheated. She doesn't deserve any alimony period if we got divorced! My issue moving forward in our marriage is if we stay married for 10 years, and then she cheats again, I'm out a lot more in alimony for another 10 years. It's a huge risk I'm taking staying married to her, and I feel like removing the penalty of alimony would mitigate that risk.

Post nup agreements are not worth much. They are notoriously difficult to enforce. I'd consult with an attorney on what your options are. When I brought this up my Attorney counseled me that if I really need one just get a divorce. He also said that any post nup would have to be balanced enough and not seen as "punitive." "Balanced" post nup would likely look the same as a regular old contested D. Consult an expert in your state and make sure that the only one who wins in that case is the attorney you are paying.

3. I struggle with my wife being a SAHM. I feel like I've been taken advantage of and made to be a joke, but at my expense. I'd be ok with being a SAHD, but I want her bringing in money. I think she's taken advantage of my ambition and I am letting the past cake eating get to me..... I hate entitlement!!!! (not your typical millennial, I am very independent)

My wife wants one of us to raise the kids, no daycare. And the issue is, do I quit my job, be a SAHD, while she works making half of what I make? I do real estate on the side, and can continue to do that and make a lot more. Maybe I haven't explored my options enough. I am looking for advice on this one though.

Not trying to date myself, but idle hands are the devils playthings. I think her finding a job is win for you in any capacity. It helps you in a D. It gives her a place to earn some self respect. Plus more money always helps. Her actions have changed the dynamic. Doing the same things just leads you back here. Things have to change and the "ideals" she has held onto have to go. I think it would be good to re-balance your lives to make every area more equitable. Bringing home income, child rearing and domestic chores need to be shared so that the "power" imbalance doesn't create resentment on both sides.