SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Cheating is cheating whether it is an EA or PA or both, I completely get that. Are there any WSs out there whose affair stayed an EA? It seems that 100% of the affairs on here actually ended with sex, is that the case for all?

I'm looking for those who didn't live out of state where travel/distance was the reason why you didn't engage in a PA.

[This message edited by Layla1234hubby at 10:23 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

I'm pretty sure I just posted on your BS thread as well. What do you consider just an EA? have you not touched hands with your AP? Brushed shoulders? Put your hand in her hair or she yours? What's *your* definition of a PA?

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 10:46 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

I would say a physical affair would be at least kissing, so first base? Even so, I never laid a finger on this woman during the affair. I'm just learning now that my wife posted about this exact topic in the forum (I just read it). The affair didn't last a long time (3 months). If it was longer and my wife didn't catch me, I don't know where it would have ended up. I have told her this. But, kissing and sex never happened. My lies and withholding information is what has ultimately done me in, but because so many EAs on the site have gone to PA, there's no doubt in her mind that it went there, but it absolutely did not.

[This message edited by Layla1234hubby at 10:59 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

The A that brought me to SI was an EA/PA with my ex. However, two years prior to that, there was what I suppose some would consider an “EA” with the same ex, via text message. My H found out about it then, and I know he wasn’t happy. It was a two-week string of text messages that included reminiscing about our prior relationship—nothing graphically sexual but expressions of missing each other, calling the other “unforgettable,” etc. Point is, we ostensibly had physical access to each other but at that time did not touch each other in any way.

I’m sorry. Mine was an EA that turned into a PA. We weren’t quite co-workers like I guess you and your AP were (we volunteered at the same organization), but it was similar to that.

Why are you asking? Are you trying to prove to your WW that it’s possible to have an EA that didn’t get physical? What have you done to help her process this and build trust?

In many ways, I am not sure why this matters. Having an EA is still showing you have not maintained your boundaries. Finding other people who did not have the PA doesn't prove that you did not.

I am not saying this to slam you. I am saying this because you need to get focused on the right things for your wife, no matter what the outcome will be. You need to put her first now and keep her first.

You need to dig deeper on your whys, and really look at what character flaws has contributed to your cheating. Then, you need to come up with plans to work on those flaws. You are still trying to control the narrative and the outcome.

My H asked me for a divorce in month 9. In many ways it was a gift, because it made me go still. I stopped spinning, I stopped scrambling. I accepted my fate. By accepting it, I didn't fear it any more. Without the fear driving my decisions, thoughts, actions, I was able to put him and our marriage first.

You are concentrating on the wrong things. Concentrate on quieting your fears so you can stop making it about you. I am telling you this for both your sake and for the sake of your wife. I haven't read her related post yet.

I would say a physical affair would be at least kissing, so first base?

The question isn't what you would say; the question is what your wife would say.

***

also, pretty much everything hikingout just said.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 11:22 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

I really sense your desperation here. I think you need to take a deep breath and just stop trying to prove anything to her. I have yet to read her recent updates regarding the new dday, but I can tell from your sudden appearance and panic that I assume she's just done. I'm always torn between advising our WSs to fight for the M or if it's just time to concede. Idk.

The recent TT, was this something you passed the poly lying about?

I just know that I can't be alone in this. My wife takes everything she sees on here and applies it to my affair as if it must be something I did too. But, you guys are right, none of this matters.

I really sense your desperation here. I think you need to take a deep breath and just stop trying to prove anything to her. I have yet to read her recent updates regarding the new dday, but I can tell from your sudden appearance and panic that I assume she's just done. I'm always torn between advising our WSs to fight for the M or if it's just time to concede. Idk.

Desperate, yes. I have lied and ultimately, as mentioned previously, that has done me in, but when she mentions that kissing and sex is another reason (even though I did neither of these things), it's hard not to want to justify that in some way by showing that not all affairs end in sex.

Yes, she seems very done, but I know there is love there, so I will never find it in me to concede.

The recent TT, was this something you passed the poly lying about?

The latest TT was more of the same as what I have already admitted to. The poly was specific to sexual activity, including kissing, inappropriate contact, and plans to engage in any physical activity. I passed it all. However, she is convinced that I did something to get around the poly because I cleared my browser history prior to taking the polygraph test. I have admitted that I thought about looking it up (just me trying to be honest), but ultimately didn't and passed.

You could try to restore the browser history (depending on how long ago and which devices you used etc.) Might cost you a bit to try but showing you're willing to restore whatever you can might help. Our devices store A LOT of information about us. And save it too even if we think we deleted it.

Worth a try..?

***

Either way, none of it might help. Letting go of control over the situation is a good first step towards being able to heal. One of the things I drilled most into me throughout IC.

it's hard not to want to justify that in some way by showing that not all affairs end in sex.

How about instead of trying to disprove what she’s saying, try validating her feelings and show her you understand why she doesn’t trust what you’re telling her?

She doesn’t trust you. And she has every right not to trust you. The only thing that helps bring back trust is consistent actions and behaviors. I’d tell my BH things but knew early on that my words were meaningless if they weren’t backed up by what I actually did.

Try to stop figuring out how to control the narrative and the outcome. She seems done, right? So what have you got to lose? Be open, honest and transparent. Focus your attention on empathizing with her instead of trying to show her you’re right. Your TT made her doubt everything. If you love her, help her get through that in any way you can.

I just know that I can't be alone in this. My wife takes everything she sees on here and applies it to my affair as if it must be something I did too. But, you guys are right, none of this matters.

If you would take a breath here, you would find that what we are trying to do is steer you in a direction where your energy can be best used.

Instead, you keep looking for a quick fix. Understandable, but you can't see that that too is going to work against you just like the TT did.

Yes, she seems very done, but I know there is love there, so I will never find it in me to concede.

I am with foreverlabeled, I never know what to tell people about this either.

I can only say by conceding out of my own humility, out of my own understanding of what I had done to him, I was able to take a step back and actually get productive about what I needed to do. Put him first. So, I sat down and talked to him about how to make the divorce easy. We worked through all the concessions. And, I supported him. It gave him a chance to gain clarity, and it gave me a chance to get some perspective over there not being any easy or quick fixes. That I was not in control of what happened next and needing to be okay with that.

And, that ultimately put me on a different path. Proving there is are a case or two on here where the EA wasn't a PA, that's not going to fix it. She isn't going to look at that and say "Okay one person did it, I guess it could be true".

You take our comments and you reject them. You are defensive. You are not being introspective at all, and you are definitely not seeing this through her eyes. Take a breath and do that. If you do, it will be a turning point. All the rest of this is just spinning your wheels and is going to get you nowhere. We aren't assholes for telling you that. We are trying to get you moving in a positive direction.

My husband had a porn thing. A web cam thing. A thing with someone else. Someone else’s. He didn’t touch any of them (that I ever found proof of). He chose all those women over me. We’d go months without sex. Meanwhile I’m doing his cum covered underwear and finding his porn shit everywhere.

You know what I found out 10 years later after this bullshit that I was convinced made me repulsive to my H Bc I couldn’t compete with these women that he never physically touched? It was an affair just the same... and I never dealt with it Bc someone convinced me it was no big deal. there was no physical touching, not considered ‘real’ infidelity.

Here’s what I know now also... HOLY FUCK SHIT DAMN PISS. That shit sure felt real to me. In fact, I went two years without sex Bc I stopped requesting it. It was sympathy fuck from him anyhow. All he wanted was Rosie palm and her 5 sisters. The years I begged for help, the different counselors he’d play... the rugsweelping... insisting it wasn’t really cheating. . all while I was still washing soiled boxers and searching browser history and then feeling so sick about what I knew he’d watched and the rejection and pain in feeling never enough and always trying to be the best wife in the world.

Eventually, someone finally noticed how great I was. Someone wanted to touch my lips. Someone wanted to hold my hand. So, I fucked his best friend. His ‘brother’. They knew each other since they were 9.

Then I lost my shit after d day when AP (my knight in shining armor) picked his family and wife over me. So I had a complete breakdown, wanted to kill myself, and had a plan to do it. Instead I checked myself into a psych ward where I spent a week.

From there I ended up on a friends couch doing outpatient treatment.

This is the scariest shit I’ve ever had to deal with. I hate myself. I hate what I did. I blame myself for everything. And I should. Like, holy shit... if I had just left my H before the A. I had asked for a divorce! He said we couldn’t afford it. I should have looked ‘our’ friend in the face and told him to fuck off. I should have done anything other than what I did, maybe I could saved everyone dumpsters of grief.

So here’s what I’m saying... if my story hasn’t convinced you that your entire situation, touching or not, is just as fucked up ‘touching or not’ Bc it has the capability to spiral into some other steaming pile of shit then just let your BS go now.

You’re being selfish (obs your a wayward so your selfish by nature) Bc you can’t see how it doesn’t matter how/why You condoned it. (‘We never physically touched’) Or how you try to scale it down for your own survival. You’re still a fucking cheater at the end of the day. Buck up. Own your shit. Touching or not, the damage is done to your BS.

frankly, if you dint starting owning your shit, realizing how touching has no more weight than not touching, I hope she leaves you. The pain you’re both feeling now is MINIMAL to what some others have been through. Don’t take that lightly or you won’t learn from it. if you gaslight her into thinking it’s NBD what you did (which is totes what you’re trying for so don’t even try and deny it) she may be fucking your best friend a few years down the line here.

[This message edited by FoenixRising at 7:01 PM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

I think most waywards, at some point, get accused of doing things that we didn't do. In your case, it is being accused of having a PA. I get why you might feel defensive about that. I got defensive about those kinds of things as well early on. But the mere fact that I did get defensive, only proved that the issue was still with me, not her.

At some point, we all need to come to the realization and acceptance that anything our spouses accuse us of, whether we did it not, is a product - a consequence - of the damage we did to them. While you are upset about being accused of something you didn't do, what you don't seem to be displaying is the knowledge, ownership and remorse for damaging her so badly that her belief in anything that you say, that anyone says honestly, is now destroyed.

Gently... The fact that she doesn't believe you isn't the horrible thing here. The horrible thing is that she is in so much constant pain and agony, her world is so shattered by the fact that the person she trusted me most in the world betrayed her in the most painful of ways... that she can simply no longer believe you. And even the fact that she can no longer believe you, eats her up inside. No matter how much she tries to tell herself that it was just an EA and that she's overthinking it... there is always that nagging voice in the back of her that tells her she's being an idiot again, that she got hurt before by believing the lies, and that she's being played for a fool yet again. That seed of doubt was put there by you. The same way it was put there by me, and every other wayward on this board. This is not us telling you that you are a bad person. This is us telling you to simply get real about the damage done, and with owning that damage as a responsible, loving adult.

Whether it was an EA or a PA is meaningless right now, because she can't believe you anyway, and you can't prove a negative. So what to do? Be patient. Be kind. Be understanding. Don't make it about your anger or shame. Instead, ask her how it feels to not be able to trust you. Reassure her that you are in this for the long haul, and that you will do whatever it takes, as long as it takes, to rebuild as much trust as you can with her, and with everyone else in your life. The answer to her question - whether it was an EA or PA - is not an answer which is expressed in words. It is expressed in how you treat her. It is expressed by the amount of effort you expend becoming a person she can even consider trusting again. It is communicated by consistent actions and efforts, and will occassionally be tested to see if you really mean it.

FoenixRising,

I just want to say that I really wish I had a friend like you before I had my A who would’ve gotten in my face like that, and laid it out for real.

Layla’s hubby, she just gave you a huge gift. Don’t waste it.