SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What advice do you give other BSs when they have a wife refuse to do a Poly, act like your wife, lie, and similar?
You give good advice.
You don't follow your own advice.
You use words like "scary" to describe divorce. Until living in infidelity with a cheating liar is more "scary" than divorce, you won't do anything. Fear is paralyzing. It will halt action. If you want to solve a problem, the first step is to stop being afraid of the outcome and do the right thing.
It is your life. Live it how you will. I would suggest you either live your own advice or stop giving it to others.

It's funny, I've felt so awful about my own inaction I actually have been much slower to offer advice in other threads. You make completely solid points.

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:30 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

I think it's a little unfair to say that you shouldn't post if you don't take your own advice. But I also think there's a very important lesson in acknowledging that you give different advice to BSes in similar positions to you. You can see how their WS may be manipulating their situation or taking advantage of their fear by refusing to do what they've asked. How is your WW different from theirs when she does that to you?

It's ironic but usually it's the very things you are doing to preserve the marriage that stand in the way of R when you operate from a place of fear. Fear only acts as a good motivation to not demand more from your WS in the beginning. Every day you get a little less fearful and little more fed up with your requests being ignored. Every day your WW feels a little more emboldened in not putting you first and still feeling entitled to the marriage.

Time and time again, someone hits a wall. It could be you. You could hit the wall of no longer caring and decide to throw in the towel because she's not getting it. And once you hit that wall, it's much harder to walk yourself back into the marriage even if your WW starts to get it together. You will think, "Why now when I'm done? Why not when I desperately wanted you to? Why not when I begged, pleaded, cried, and hurt over you not doing it?" But even if you don't, it could be her. It could be her wondering, "Why now do I have to give up my job and take a polygraph when it was fine not to all this time? Why do I have to sacrifice so much when you could just get over it?" Choosing to put the marriage first above your healing and R is ironically what puts it in more danger than laying out your boundaries and consequences clearly early on. Even if you file for D tomorrow, she still gets plenty of time to find a new job and take a polygraph before it is final to retain the marriage if that is what you require of her.

Personally, I think you have a lot less to lose than you think by enforcing the consequences of her not changing her job or taking a polygraph. I think you're very likely for her to drop her final acts of selfishness in favor of keeping you and the marriage. She's banking on you not doing that which is why she flip flops. She's calling your bluff. It's not impossible for her to eventually choose to do these things for you one day when she's good and ready but you're putting a lot on the line in terms of sanity to give her the time she will need to do that and the pay off is questionable when your "Give-A-Damn Meter" is wearing out. What good would it be for her to one day agree to a new job and a polygraph if you are too fed up and hurt to care? What good is the start of R when all you can think about is how resentful you feel having waited years to even get to this point knowing you still have another 2-5 years to go? Not much according to the BSes who go through this.

In a small version of her ongoing pattern of not doing enough (by my estimation), my WW has basically read none of the Gottman book (The Seven Principles..). This was assigned reading from the MC three weeks ago. I have finished the book and actually learned a few valuable lessons. She read a bit of the introduction last night, only after I pointed out she had read nothing. She said something along the lines of, "We've worked really hard at this. We have done MC, and IC. I'm fatigued and I just want things to be better."
How can she feel fatigued constantly putting in less effort than me, less effort than I ask for, and less effort than she promises? I feel like time is running out.

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:31 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

TiF, you're right. The clock is ticking. The rose colored glasses are coming off. Time is running out for her.

Did you confront her about the fact that YOU, the one dealing with trauma, have some how found the time and energy to read those books?

She is still continuing her agenda of let's rugsweep my behavior. Put in little effort and claim you both have done hard work when it's only you pulling the both of you through your fake R.

As Marz always says.... you stay in it(limbo) as long as you accept it.

She read a bit of the introduction last night, only after I pointed out she had read nothing. She said something along the lines of, "We've worked really hard at this. We have done MC, and IC. I'm fatigued and I just want to rugsweep this.

Fixed that for you. I hope you’re awake.

How can she feel fatigued constantly putting in less effort than me, less effort than I ask for, and less effort than she promises?

SHE

DOESN’T

CARE

I feel like time is running out.

It should be. Unless you’d like a repeat.

This0Is0Fine, I do wonder why you are posting here. Is it to be working up the courage to do what you need to do?

I mean, damn bro, this thread is 46 pages long. People have told you what you need to do to get out of infidelity, but for whatever reason you won't do it. Not sure whether this is because you can't find your inner strength to do it, or because you really think your way is better. Your wife just keeps ignoring what you say you need to stay in the marriage, and you just keep on caving. And here you are 5 months later....

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:02 PM, May 7th (Thursday)]

Think of it as a log book.

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:31 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Think of it as a log book.

Well, but do you WANT to get out of infidelity? As in, are you willing to take control of what you will and will not stand in your life. Or are you content just being stuck.

I do think this is a fair question for everyone who has been giving you all this advice, it would be helpful to know where it is that you are coming from.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:11 PM, May 7th (Thursday)]

I do want to get out of infidelity.
If you and others feel you are being ignored and wasting your mental effort on me you can refrain from posting. Or you can keep hitting with 2x4s.
I appreciate the input I get here.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 1:51 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:31 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Hi TIF,

This place will always be open to you.

Sometimes it is just good to have a place where we can just be with people who have been where we are. To touch base. To just say, "This sh*t happened". To share.

We feel your frustration, TIF. I really don't know what your wife is thinking. She is not giving you a lot to work with.

In your place, I would be asking a lot of open questions about how she envisages her future, what she thinks she could do to improve things, and so on. See if you can make her engage that way.

I guess the other thing you could do is stop prioritizing her thoughts and efforts, and consider whether the person she is now is someone you want to be with long-term.

This is a time to be prioritizing yourself, and thinking long and hard about what you need to be happy. And - as painful as this is - to assess whether your wife is emotionally capable of providing that for you, or if she expects the traffic to be all one way (from you to her).

A long time ago I had a kind of epiphany in a relationship with a girlfriend who cheated on me. For two years, I had mostly been giving, in terms of attention, maintenance, and demonstrations of my commitment. And my girlfriend was happy enough to take.

Then one day, at a point where I felt exhausted, I suddenly thought, "What the Hell am I getting out of this? How much effort does she make for me? If our roles were reversed, would she do for me what I have done for her?"

That was when I made the liberating jump from what had been almost a 'servant' role to putting myself on a par with my girlfriend, and embracing the truth that I deserved a similar level of input and devotion from her.

And in my case, I did not get it. So after a couple more weeks, I ended the relationship. Not because she cheated - though that was hard to handle and we argued a lot as a result - but because I finally accepted that the dynamic of our relationship was skewed in her favor, and I would always be a human shock-absorber, butler, fixer, doctor, parent for her.

I had been all about me, and what I could do for her, but when I finally questioned what she gave me, and what I got out of the relationship - factoring my needs in for the first time - I saw how unbalanced everything was, and more importantly, that what I needed was something better than what I was being given.

I have just lost a friend I have known for thirty years. Not to the virus, he had a stack of health issues, and his heart finally gave out in his sleep.

It has been tough to run through hundreds of memories, and to accept that I will never pick up the phone and hear his voice again, even if I live to be three hundred years old. It is equally tough to think about the future plans we had made and accept that they have all been cancelled with no rain check.

To be honest, I have crashed and burnt a few times. It is hard to polish this turd to the point where I can accept it. However, one thought keeps coming to me whenever it feels like this loss is too big to handle.

It is the realization that I had a life before I knew my pal.

I lived, I breathed, I laughed, I worked. I felt the sun on my face. And it was okay. I know how callous that must sound, and I do not mean it in a 'nobody matters' way. I am going to miss my pal until the day that I die, and every time that my friends get together, there is always going to be somebody missing.

But we have to go on, because that is how life is. And we will survive, as individuals, because we all survived before we knew him. Would our lives be better with him still present? Yes. Are our lives over without him? No.

We all exist as individuals. The sun shines on our face, and it feels good, and that depends on no-one else.

What I am trying to say in this clumsy way is that you matter, TIF. And you should not disappear off your own radar. You have shown a lot of care for your wife, and she has been less forthcoming when you have needed some care coming from her.

No healthy relationship is a one-way street, regardless of whether the recipient of the attention grows entitled and takes what is being given for granted. At some point, the giver needs to get some sunshine back.

So the questions I will leave you with are these:

Who are you, TIF?

What do you need in life?

Are the people in your life capable of providing that for you?

Do you give more than you receive?

What is, and is not, acceptable to you? And why?

The key to making progress does not lie within your wife, but within you, TIF.

I do want to get out of infidelity.

If you and others feel you are being ignored and wasting your mental effort on me you can refrain from posting. Or you can keep hitting with 2x4s.

I appreciate the input I get here.

Maybe I should have been clearer in my last post. This forum is yours TIF, as much as it is everyone else's. And you need to do what is best, for YOU. You sure as hell don't owe it to anyone to be following anyone's advice, taking a tougher line on your WW, ect.

I just want you to be ask yourself though: How do you see this going? Do you really think all these sessions with a MC taking your side is going to get WW to see the light? If not, then what. Or maybe you're truly OK with being Plan B, and you see your marriage with your unremorseful WW as it is now as OK for you.

Again, it's your life, brother. Just be honest with yourself. I mean, you have not been acting like someone who truly wants to get himself out of infidelity.

I am curious what your response was to your WW telling you that she is "fatigued" and "just wants things to be better".

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:22 PM, May 8th (Friday)]

T,

While I’ve given a couple of 2 x 4’s over the past five months, I also know how hard this has been for you. It’s a lot easier to give advice from this side and a lot harder to implement it from your side. It’s a tough decision to choose D and alter both yours and your kids’ lives forever. It would be so much easier if WW had a major fuck up where you were left with no hope and had to finally pull the plug. You’ll know when the time is right for you. Stay strong and make you and your kids your priority for now.

Your user name seems sadly apropos. 😔

Unsure2019,
It's interesting, the other day before I asked for a divorce and then walked it back after more fighting and discussion, I remarked that it feels like I'm in a triple overtime but more likely to lose than win. It would actually be a relief if it was a plain old blowout. She fucks the other guy, she blatantly blame shifts, she does other shit (tbh, she never really established NC). It's just frustrating.

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:32 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

I'm sorry you're caught up in the (not surprising) situation where your wife keeps sending mixed signals.

I suggest you go back and read your posts (I did).

I'm sure there's more than what is in your posts, but your wife only shows you respect/takes action to save her marriage when she believes you're ready to D.

Anything less on your part seems to be viewed as a weakness that she can not resist taking advantage of.

This0Is0Fine, you strike me as an extremely rational person who is quite cautious. Frankly I think this is doing you in.

Patterns. You and your wife had one pattern in your marriage up until last year, one that you seem to have become more and more aware of in these recent months. Thing is though, now you and your wife have fallen into another pattern. A pattern that you have allowed, but that does not serve you though. And frankly, neither her. And one that is going to be harder and harder to break as time goes on. At least, break in a way that serves you.

What this pattern is now: (a) Your wife is not doing what she said she would. (b) So every few weeks you get into an argument, where you usually are on the brink of threatening divorce (c) For whatever reason, the argument always ends with your wife still not doing what you need her to do, and with you caving and you accepting your wife's terms and conditions (???). Wash-rinse-repeat.

Meanwhile (d) you are also stuck playing infidelity cop because your wife will not cut out her wayward friends. She isn't so bothered by the filth. (I suppose it is good that you are alerting the BH when you find out, but even for this I do remember there was a big lobbying effort on here for you to tell BIL of his WW...would you have even told BIL otherwise)

So your solution to (a)--(d) is: (e) Find a marriage counselor who agrees with you and have her read some books (???)

This pattern that you and WW have been on, has to be draining for the both of you. All these counseling sessions with all these discussions about ethics and values and how her way of looking at things is wrong and all these books to read. I got tired just typing this out! If this is what you marriage is like now with no end-date in sight, then why would either of you want to stay. Wouldn't it have just been easier and faster for the BOTH of you for her to have simply quit her damn job? Or for you to have put your foot down and stuck with it. OR for you to decide that the direction she seems to want to live her life, is not for you, so you divorce.

What's even worse is that this pattern will not end well for you or your marriage. Your WW has moved from rationalizing her EA to blame-shifting onto you. She is getting further and further away from remorse. It is not unlikely that SHE will be the one who decides it is time to pull the plug, maybe with another OM. And...that will end up hurting you a lot more than if you were more proactive. It is why people have been imploring you to start taking action.

Meanwhile, the guys on here who have gotten out of infidelity have taken much stronger harsher more emotional responses than you have. Their waywards could FEEL their BS' fury right from D-Day. So they were doing things out of desperation like quitting their jobs, going NC, ect. No it wasn't remorse on the part of the waywards, but the waywards still knew that they had to make drastic changes fast if they had any chance of saving the marriage. So they ran around like scalded cats. The whole shock-and-awe from the BSs helped to push the waywards to start their 'real' journeys in earnest.

You never really went through that with your WW though. Your wife did almost resign back in January but you, nice guy that you are, told her to hold off on that because it was "under duress" (????) Meanwhile she also told your MC at the time how she feels she doesn't want to even be married. So then in reaction to that, you seemed to have done a sort of pick-me dance/re-education initiative with your WW. And here you are 4 months later in the aforementioned pattern.

No judgement here brother, this is all really tough. You were dealt a really tough hand. I absolutely get how one would decide on staying and settling for the status quo and hoping for the best. Especially when you have kids. But this pattern is here. And you are going to stay stuck--or maybe your WW will leave you first--until you break this pattern and move on.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:21 AM, May 11th (Monday)]

You never really went through that with your WW though. Your wife did almost resign back in January but you, nice guy that you are, told her to hold off on that because it was "under duress" (????) Meanwhile she also told your MC at the time how she feels she doesn't want to even be married. So then in reaction to that, you seemed to have done a sort of pick-me dance/re-education initiative with your WW. And here you are 4 months later in the aforementioned pattern.
No judgement here brother, this is all really tough. You were dealt a really tough hand. I absolutely get how one would decide on staying and settling for the status quo and hoping for the best. Especially when you have kids. But this pattern is here. And you are going to stay stuck--or maybe your WW will leave you first--until you break this pattern and move on.

You aren't wrong that this is a pattern. I see it myself.
Think about this though, and it's important to me. I don't want her doing stuff out of fear and self defense. I don't want her to send a resignation letter while crying and fighting and just generally in fight or flight mode. She did that once in January. She actually even resigned then withdrew her resignation in the most recent fight where I was pretty intent on D. I want her doing it out of remorse, and reason not because she's pushing some desperate panic button. Maybe she'll never get there. It does seem unlikely. Patience and restraint have perhaps not paid off so well as I had thought about a month ago.

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:32 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Do consider that, waiting too long for signs of deep and lasting remorse may result in one of the two:

1. Unbearable pain that may never get resolved, even when remorse finally shows up.

2. Remorse that just never shows up, accompanied by the trauma and pain that waited until deciding it wasn't going to show up.

What do you need, and how long are you willing to wait to determine if that need is realistically going to be met.