SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm in therapy.
My therapist doesn't think I'm self destructive since I'm not allowing this situation to otherwise impact my health, work, relationship with my children, etc. He sees me as being patient and tolerant beyond reason though. That most people would behave differently in my situation.
The circle I drive in, in therapy and in life is this:
My WW doesn't respect boundaries, again and again. It's a pattern. It can't and won't stop. I'm not going to justify or rationalize why such boundary crossing is acceptable. It isn't really.
I could divorce her. No one would blame me, it would be completely understandable by everyone. I've talked to my WW about it and she agrees that it wouldn't be hard to understand why I want a D and that she deserves whatever I decide. But I don't want to divorce her.
Internally, I struggle either way. I don't want to be divorced. I don't want to break up my family or the way I'm living, or honestly the otherwise very good relationship with my wife. If you take any measure of the health of our relationship (affair not withstanding) it's still excellent. We have common shared goals, we are good co-parents, etc. We went through "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work". We score really high on everything in there.
I've asked for a divorce once (once in April after my very important eavesdropping event) and I wouldn't say she talked me out of it. I was actually thankful at the time because I felt I actually wanted to get divorced later anyway (as mentioned at the top of the thread).
If you look at the pattern, and the fact that my wife simply isn't a safe partner, divorce is the rational decision and the one I think I should make. When I only think about "should I get a divorce" I think the answer is "yes".
While it may be hard to get people here to agree that I am stupid, I'm certain my decision to not get a divorce right now is stupid. I'm making, logically, a bad decision, because the actual act of doing it isn't what I want.
Ok, so is it fear? No, I don't fear divorce. I would come out the other side just fine. I'm financially stable, could find someone new, or not (I don't really want to find someone new but I could). We could figure out a parenting plan. I could keep the house. Things would work.
I've got a detailed financial plan for amicable and combative scenarios. I've worked it out. Finances don't bother me.
I have a good support system. My friends know what I'm going through, they could help me in any way I needed. I don't need my wife for that.
I am not in denial that she is an unsafe partner. That's completely and thoroughly demonstrated. I'm accepting that I am choosing to be with someone that on this one specific front will keep hurting me until I can't take it anymore. At such a time that I can't take it anymore I will leave. (I think I wrote something similar in my thread).
I'm deciding between what I obviously should do, divorce, with what I want to do, which is continue to push the rock up the hill until it finally rolls backwards over me.
I have clarity. My WW is an otherwise good match for me that, in this one tightly defined and quite serious instance, doesn't give a shit about how she makes me feel. I'm staying while recognizing that it is stupid to do so. The "why" is because that's what I want to do.
This is not a secret to my WW. She has been told (of her most recent breaking of NC not detailed here because it didn't seem particularly worth mentioning thinking I was headed for D even before she did it), "I do not forgive you, we are not reconciled, I'm deciding to stay married to you despite the fact that it is stupid for me to do so. The best thing you can do for me now, is to try to convince me with your words and actions that I'm not stupid. I expect you to disappoint me and for this to be the end of us."

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:30 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:11 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

My reaction is you think you have clarity but you don't - even your therapist has said your reaction is "beyond all reason."

Once adultery poisons a monogamous pair bond with its radioactive fallout, all of the other "good things" about that pair bond are demolished unless the wayward spouse is willing to address it head on and be accountable.

Your spouse isn't doing that and in fact is doing the opposite. She can't even guarantee she won't try to sleep with another man in the near, medium or distant future. She can't offer you anything and won't.. Thus, any discussion about her good qualities and compatibility and so on are functionally meaningless.

Because the kind of person who would continue to this to you in the face of your enormous pain is a real shit heel. Let's be honest about that.

Like I said, "the beatings will continue until the morale improves." You will continue to slow boil to death until you wont, but just make sure it's not too late when you've finally had enough. Only you can truly advocate for yourself.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:07 PM, August 20th (Thursday)]

Maybe you missed the part where I agreed that my decision defies reason?
I'm not even asking to have my decision validated here. I agree that the one bad point invalidates all the good points. I agree my WW is being a shit heel.
I'm making a shit decision, and I stand by it. It's clearly a bad idea. I'm doing it anyway. This is clarity.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:29 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:10 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

TIF,

You insist its probably not a good idea to continue on your path, but you're doing it anyway.

What is your reason for wanting to stay with an unsafe partner? Is it really just "b/c that's what I want to do"? Seems that you were moving along nice, than you did a 180 on the 180. Why do you think that is?

There is no right or wrong, obviously you do you.... but you're going against what you've said prior and conventional wisdom here on the boards. How can you be certain this is not the right move, and still do it anyway? This is like the behavior we blast Waywards for doing.

lets say you want divorce , clarity is saying i want divorce because i no longer trust her

Lets say you want R , clarity is saying we get along so well and i am happy overall so i can give her another chance and i understand she is a risk but she is worth it to me

Sounds like you are saying” she cant change and i cant leave because i am So happy overall , Maybe i should just unilaterally eat shit till I die ( metaphorically or actually ) .”

Also i am stupid but i already figured everything out with clarity

Buddy these answers cant all be true at the same time , you are not stupid , she is not irredeemable but not every couple can stay together till death descends

The goal is to R with your self respect intact , if staying makes you feel like you have let yourself down then its just not the right decision

You will press the escape button when you’re ready.

^^^This! When the pain of staying becomes more painful than the thought of leaving that is when you know you will be ready.

Look at my start date here. 8 years of this with multiple infidelities & False R. My threshold for pain must have been very low and my tolerance for abuse was a detriment to my mental health. Just make sure you stay in IC for a bit. It literally was my lifeline through this mess and I have had more than one counselor.

Lets say you want divorce , clarity is saying i want divorce because i no longer trust her
Lets say you want R , clarity is saying we get along so well and i am happy overall so i can give her another chance and i understand she is a risk but she is worth it to me

I don't think the risk is logically, or reasonably worth it, but I'm taking it anyway.

Sounds like you are saying” she cant change and i cant leave because i am So happy overall , Maybe i should just unilaterally eat shit till I die ( metaphorically or actually ) .”

It's kinda like that. I'm taking a risk that is almost certainly bad. Jumping out of a plane without a chute bad. It's possible I won't splat at the bottom, but it's not really likely. I've observed the patterns. I don't believe that my decision will result in anything other than a splat. In the meantime, I can enjoy the fall.

Also i am stupid but i already figured everything out with clarity

This decision is stupid. Smart people can make stupid decisions. I'm doing it now as we speak.

Buddy these answers cant all be true at the same time , you are not stupid , she is not irredeemable but not every couple can stay together till death descends
The goal is to R with your self respect intact , if staying makes you feel like you have let yourself down then its just not the right decision

This is, almost certainly, the wrong decision. :)

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:29 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:13 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

It sounds to me as if you're deep in a self-flagellating stage for some reason. You might press in on that with your therapist and try to dig a little deeper as to why you feel you should punish yourself or remained shackled like one of the denizen's of Plato's cave.

I wasn't arguing with you, but just pointing out that your listing of her good qualities is really meaningless in the face of her continued behaviors and desire to commit infidelity.

It's essentially an untenable situation for you. I don't think it's healthy, but that's my opinion.

I was not quite the same place last year, but close enough. I'm sure you followed that saga and saw that -- at least on some level - it was leading straight to my physical death.

Only you can advocate for yourself in this situation.

Like I said, you'll access the escape hatch when you're ready.

TIF,

You mentioned that WW recently broke NC, but you did not mention it here. If I remember right, this would not be the first time she’s done this. When did this happen and how serious was it – conversation, meeting, etc?

Great question.
It was a meeting and ongoing non-work related contact over work IM. It's safe to assume it did occur.
She text OM (first time in 8 months) once. I saw this on the phone bill. This is at best, extremely lazy and stupid on her part since it is directly against our NC agreement. She deleted the text, it was not recoverable.
She alleges that they DIDN'T meet up and the text was, "I'm sorry I couldn't meet you for coffee, enjoy your vacation".
She showed me his email (that she already should have showed me before, but not until after I asked her about the text that showed on the phone record) where he explained that he was going to be out our way for an errand, and he would like to clear the air. She said she responded to this via work IM that isn't logged saying that they could meet for coffee. When the day rolled around, she claims she decided that it wasn't worth it and she shouldn't do it. So she decided to not meet him, then send that text.
We talked about why she would do such an idiotic thing, why it was so hurtful, and that I don't believe her bullshit at all.
If you need any further clarification on this, I'm happy to provide it.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:29 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:14 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

She text OM (first time in 8 months) once. I saw this on the phone bill. This is at best, extremely lazy and stupid on her part since it is directly against our NC agreement. She deleted the text, it was not recoverable.

She alleges that they DIDN'T meet up and the text was, "I'm sorry I couldn't meet you for coffee, enjoy your vacation".

She showed me his email (that she already should have showed me before, but not until after I asked her about the text that showed on the phone record) where he explained that he was going to be out our way for an errand, and he would like to clear the air. She said she responded to this via work IM that isn't logged saying that they could meet for coffee. When the day rolled around, she claims she decided that it wasn't worth it and she shouldn't do it. So she decided to not meet him, then send that text.

I mean 😳

There's no scenario on SI where this is considered acceptable behavior. She's not remorseful. She's barely regretful. She's continuing contact - the affair is ongoing. We might as well assume the affair has continued underground on some level this entire time.

I can't imagine how defeated and devastated I would feel had my WW done this. I'm on the brink of divorce and have already asked for it, and my WW never would have done something like this. I'm not saying "my WW is better than your WW" -- I'm saying that even as much of a shitshow as my WW's reaction has been, she never would have considered this acceptable behavior in the wake of discovery.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:47 PM, August 20th (Thursday)]

I think i get it .You are hoping one day you will wake up and your gut will say “ i dont love her one bit “ and then you can gleefully be done forever

Or that one day she will wake up and her gut will say “ i am going to love the fk out of this man and make him the happiest man alive “

Even smart people do turn to tarrot cards or gypsies or astrology etc for consolation . Similarly you are hoping for a cosmic resolution via digestive tracts .... well if its giving you some solace then I guess its working as well as anything else

For what its worth you are a smart person with alot to offer and someone dropped a nuclear bomb on your heart , id say your rational brain will probably kick in soon ( few months ) till then just eat alot of vegetables and try kick boxing.

This0is0Fine:

You are not stupid. And doing what you want is not stupid. It’s your life. You live it as you like. You know the risks and possible outcomes. I am not going to bash you. I wis( you good luck and God speed. There may come a time in the future when you feel differently. That’s life.

TIF,

Thanks for the clarification. Frankly, your WW’s actions and explanation are just a head scratcher. I’m sure you’ve already factored this into you decision to stay – I believe somewhere in her twisted physic she is still holding a pretty large candle for her AP. She is settling for you and your M, but in her mind her true love is her AP. At this point, mostly a beautiful fantasy to day dream about.

So, it seems you are both settling and signing up for a life of quiet desperation until at some point it all blows up again. How much time and energy are you willing to invest in a WW that either can’t or won’t do the work?

TiF, I hope your IC really examines this with you. What you have described is like choosing not to turn the wheel when you're about to crash your car into a wall. Yes, it's not as overt or direct as most self destructive behavior is but it is far from healthy.

Personally, I think you're lying to yourself. Seeing you list the good points of your relationship is like bragging about how nice the rims on a car are when the engine is blown. I know this because I've been there myself. Things were great with my XWBF if I kept rugsweeping all of the issues. But actually things weren't that great at all. They were simply okay but given how terrible they could be, okay looked better than it really was. That's what I'm betting you're experiencing day-to-day outside of A issues. No arguments isn't the pinnacle of ideal. Being able to act normal isn't a great barometer for success. Feeling safe, secure, and being able to trust your spouse is an absolute minimum for greatness that you don't have.

I don't know how much more time. I'm keeping my energy use on this to a minimum.
Neko, I agree with everything you've said more or less. It doesn't feel like rugsweeping because our issues are out in the open and we talk about them basically every day. She has said she deserves whatever I decide and would understand and agree to an amicable divorce now or in the future. More like putting all the dust in a pile on the floor but not actually cleaning it up and putting it in the garbage bin. "It's a real shame that dust is still there."

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:14 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

TIF, I know you are an atheist so I'm not posting this for any other reason than to look at the Bible as a source of human wisdom (or literature, whatever floats your boat) but Proverbs 14:1 says "A wise woman builds her home, but a foolish woman tears it down with her own hands."

The writer, divinely inspired or not, was writing pretty much about your situation.

The better analogy than the pile of dust is that she tore down her house with her own hands and then looked around and said "shame about this mess, you wanna stay here with me in the rubble? I'll understand if you don't -- really makes no difference to me. Hey I'm gonna call OM again for coffee, mmmkay?"

As it comes to the behaviors she displays around the affair, the best possible characterization is unbelievably careless and selfish (again, I've told her this). The alternatives are even worse.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:29 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:15 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

by the way, re: your new tag line. We're all irrational. It comes with being finite beings. Don't beat yourself up so much. As I said, extend yourself some grace here. Not grace in the Christian sense, just grace.

You're an atheist - maybe you've read Sam Harris' "Waking Up" - great book. Might help in your present state, might not.

Thinking about you and sending good thoughts and yes prayers your way.

Its your life This0is0Fine. But you are aware that you capitulated on everything. Here we are 8 months later and your WW is still in her job, isn't even really regretful nevermind remorseful, and is still open to meeting MM for "coffee". She even openly admitted that she may end up stepping out on you again. You set and reset all these hard lines and she ignored them all without consequence. Even your WW herself seems shocked that you are still around putting up with these terms and conditions.

How do you see this turning out?

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:26 AM, August 21st (Friday)]