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It's not money. A few weeks before I found out she was cheating, I surprised my wife by revealing we could pay off the mortgage with dividends from the small business I'd started several years earlier (something she never encouraged me in and, it seems, was surprised it returned what I claimed it could). We're not extremely wealthy and, have a modest home but, it's paid for.

As for the behaviour coming from the Family of Origin (FOO -- I had to Google that), there are almost certainly unresolved issues. I think she has a toxic relationship with her mother -- it's seemingly good on the surface but, her mother is emotionally unavailable and, extremely controlling. I'd say she lacks empathy but is very concerned with 'keeping up appearances/ managing perceptions; I now see this in my wife but, it may be confirmation bias on my part. My wife knows her relationship with her mother is far from normal but, it's complicated by the fact that, only a few years ago she handed my wife an envelope to read in private. This was her birth certificate, which didn't state a father and, contained a note stating that the person who she knows as 'dad' may not be (clearly isn't) her father. How f"cked-up is that?!

So, I'd say my wife has plenty to unravel and, should probably be going to IC to unpack this...in addition to the lying.

Thoughts?

Yes she needs IC. She came from a toxic family and now has created a semi toxic marriage.

It seemed like an odd reaction to lying about junk food to be contemplating divorce. Then I skimmed your other posts.

First, she really doesn’t seem to like herself much. This is usually a starting place for someone always looking for someone else to fix her problems which of course is why some people have affairs,

Next, I see that she talks the talk, but doesn’t walk the walk. Whatever bare minimum action she takes to keep you contained is her mo.

Third, either she doesn’t get it or doesn’t want to get it. Your date night with her in the old stained hoodie pretty much says it all.

Fourth, as you are pretty well sure she has held back information, and have let her know about it, she has done nothing to assure you but instead has gone on playing the same game, perhaps knowing that you will live with whatever she does.

Of course going to ic won’t fix anything if she just goes through the motions and frankly I kind of expect that. But who knows, maybe she will begin to get the fact that her fucked up way of doing things are counterproductive.

Then there is you. I get the kids point. But after two affairs and the jacked up last two years, it is not surprising that you are at least considering an exit. Not presuming to give advice about that, but you might read Thumos various threads. See what happens when a guy has to suck it up without knowing the full story, although what was known is terrible. See how it affects both mental and physical health.

And then ask yourself how long are you going to live like this. To a first observer your outrage over what many would call trivial misbehavior seemed out of proportion. Yet knowing more, the tip of the iceberg was not a good analogy. You appear to have a ever growing volcano within you, and it is going to blow sooner or later.

Constant living with half truth, assuming the worst and an ambivalent cheater is just plain unhealthy. My impression is that this is the path you have chosen. Doesn’t look like it’s working out.

I think she would def. benefit from IC! I am not sure if it is due to shame on her part that she lied or more "just" a learned coping mechanism from the past.

Being honest should be a given. However,

I alike many have FOO issues when it comes to this. My mother to this day says: well, what he (father) doesn't know won't hurt him.... see how many red flags just went on?!

Well, this is what I grew up with.. and not even talking about something bad, but let's say she wants to be in good shape for you, admitting to stop at McDonalds can seem like - letting you down, letting herself down in her goal of getting in shape. Breaking that promise..

Keeping it a secret can somehow make it "not real". See how she would benefit from IC?.. That way of coping that a lie makes it somehow not real or less real or will prevent harm... I did this! And gosh I hate I did. But that is how I was raised. Lying to prevent hurt. The f up part is, when you grow up like that and never "re wire" that part of you, you actually believe this !!! It is lying to yourself.

Months ago, before IC, I would not have been able to write this.. so I hope she too will go to IC and start thinking about this a bit.

Coming in late, but little lies by a WS are very concerning.

Were it me, I'd investigate a bit. Place a GPS in her car and a VAR in her car as well. You can track her whereabouts as well as zero in on her conversations.

Your considered input is appreciated.

But after two affairs and the jacked up last two years,

Just to correct: she had a single affair (to my knowledge!)

and the jacked up last two years

This is one of the things that really annoys me -- the continued damage 'post-event'. I have a chronic illness (not really evident on the surface) and, since D-day, have been admitted to hospital with heart problems and, more recently, my hair started falling out. It may be unrelated but, I wouldn't be surprised if this is linked to the stress of it all. Thinking about her lack of empathy (or an inability to show it through positive behaviours) riles me.

so I hope she too will go to IC and start thinking about this a bit.

Thanks. This is going to be a condition. I can't see how I can begin to trust without it.

Place a GPS in her car and a VAR in her car as well.

Sigh, I agree with this. Over the weekend I placed my old phone in its previous location (this gives the location by GPS of course -- all I have to do is use the 'Find my Iphone' app to get it in real time). I also put the VARs (Voice Activated Recorders) back in place. I can really be doing without this sh*t. Pardon my 'French'.

[This message edited by BSPheonix at 3:26 AM, October 5th (Monday)]

So, I told my wife she needs to address her lies and, should seek counselling. She refused, telling me she's all 'counselled-out' and doesn't have anything to fix. The rest of the exchange didn't go well. I told her I'm not going to wear my wedding ring until I consider us to be within reconciliation. She said she doesn't want me to do this but understands. However, she couldn't offer any constructive suggestions as to how I can begin to trust her.

I've also listened to some voice recordings. She had a convo with her mother earlier today, in which her mother said I was being emotionally manipulative ("typical of a man"), immature, OTT (in my reaction) and, if I don't come round, my wife should consider what she wants to do long-term. "I know this feels difficult but you and the kids will be fine by yourselves long-term".

Friend of the marriage I think not.

[This message edited by BSPheonix at 7:48 AM, October 5th (Monday)]

BSPheonix, your WW has or is working on a PhD in Psychology? And she doesn't know why this happens or how to deal with it? As I understand it there is a considerable amount of counselling required in order to practice. Didn't she/they dig into this?

I was being emotionally manipulative

FWIW, I happen to agree with this. If you think she is a dishonest person who habitually lies to you (which has extended to the level of infidelity), you could say: (a) Wife, you are a habitual person who lies to me. I won't tolerate that. Therefore, I'm divorcing you. Or, you could say: (b) Wife, you are a habitual person who lies to me. I won't tolerate that. Therefore, I'm telling you that you must fix that part of yourself, and I'm going to treat our marriage as broken unless and until you do.

Choice (b) is emotional manipulation.

Further, it's contra to the general understanding here on SI of R and how R works (if and when it does work). R works when the WS wants it, when the WS takes the initiative to do the work, when the WS asks the BS for an opportunity. I've not seen threads here on SI where R actually worked when being driven by the BS.

WW has or is working on a PhD in Psychology?

She has it (has had for years). She's a trailblazer and no-one's fool. I expect she's being calculated about what she does or, is unable (or unwilling) to apply to herself what she does professionally.

(((BSP))

Time to have consequences for lying.

I agree to kicking her out of the bed, and refusing to wear your ring until she not only gets her ass into therapy, but also makes some real changes and becomes a total open book.

Her mom needs to F off. Does she know her daughter had an A, and has lied and betrayed you?

As far as I am concerned to be successful in R, and really rebuild a new healthy relationship, you absolutely need a firm boundary on lies. Lies are what ultimately kill the M, not the actual A.

Withdraw interacting w/ her and focus on yourself and your health.

(slight t/j - if you are meds for an autoimmune condition as mentioned about your health, be aware several of them cause hair loss, I had to stop one that was working fairly well because I lost so much hair).

So, I told my wife she needs to address her lies and, should seek counselling. She refused, telling me she's all 'counselled-out' and doesn't have anything to fix. The rest of the exchange didn't go well. I told her I'm not going to wear my wedding ring until I consider us to be within reconciliation. She said she doesn't want me to do this but understands. However, she couldn't offer any constructive suggestions as to how I can begin to trust her.

Basically she's telling you that she doesn't care (at least not enough) and won't do the necessary work on herself to save the M, she has "nothing to fix", therefore she will remain a LIAR FOREVER. I suggest you file for D and have her served without warning, if D papers don't shock her back to reality then nothing will, being M police forever doesn't sound like something you want to keep doing and rightfully so, no trust and honesty no successful R.

Choice (b) is emotional manipulation.

Personally, I think it's a reasonable ultimatum given the circumstances. Indeed, the intent is manipulative (out of desperation) but, I'm running out of ideas.

Naturally, I understand the unstated point that my WW may not be invested in R -- at least it certainly appears that way given her behaviour.

[This message edited by BSPheonix at 8:49 AM, October 5th (Monday)]

She refused, telling me she's all 'counselled-out' and doesn't have anything to fix.

Nothing to work with, unfortunately.

You need to prepare to give consequences, otherwise, you will be in limbo forever. She's basically saying F-you, BSPhoenix, deal with it.

Yeah, her mom sounds like a real peach.

BSPhoenix - why do you keep erasing posts? I can't follow.

I'm not erasing. Sometimes when I post -- despite a single 'click' on 'Submit'-- duplicate posts appear.

It really sounds like she isn't fully committed to R.

Fully counselled out after how many months? Can she cure her clients if a few months?

Is walking with and kissing the AP because he has issues considered professional?

She clearly isn't cured herself. Using fast food for a crutch and lying about what is a comparatively minor offence makes that very clear. Two issues that obviously still need work.

That is assuming those two issues are valid, or just a smoke screen for something else going on.

Your VAR may show that if it is. Burner phone for more contact? Possible.

The 180 may need to be implemented to clear up some fog, unfortunately.

You both need IC, and you need marriage counseling - but you probably both need to work on yourselves first. I went back and read your previous post, and I'd like to start with that:

I tell my wife (at a later date) that I couldn't stomach reading all the messages and therefore deleted them (this of course isn't true, as I only had 1 message).

Yes, your wife had an EA (possibly PA). Yes she lies, which is not OK. (and it likely rooted in her family of origin.) On the other hand, you manipulate her and lie to her.

I suggested we should, as part of 'intensive care' for our marriage, get physical asap

Your response to this whole thing is not to suggest counseling to iron out the issues in your marriage, but to suggest sex?REALLY!?

one of the things that pains me the most is all the opportunities she had for guilt/ self-reflection.

Trust me, she feels shame. This is a women who lies about going to McDonald's. Do you want her in a place of guilt or a place of growth to understand how and why she did what she did so she doesn't repeat it?

Why doesn't she confide in you about her trip for junk food?

I was aware of her alleged body image issues

. Maybe because you claim her issues are 'alleged.'

So, I told my wife she needs to address her lies and, should seek counselling

Did you suggest marriage counseling or is this about turning the thumb screws on that guilt you want her to feel. Did you suggest or support her counseling a few years ago when she was dealing with learning her mother doesn't know who her father is.

I'd say my wife has plenty to unravel and, should probably be going to IC to unpack this...in addition to the lying.

You write that the lies are the issue. The lies are AN issue, but you have way more problems in your marriage than that. You have a chronic illness. It affects her too. Have you discussed that?

I'm reading about a marriage with no partnership and no emotional support or empathy, in either direction.

As a BS, I feel your pain. I really do. No one should have to go through what we've been through. But it's going to continue unless you both deal with your problems.

And if she says she doesn't want to go for counseling, why don't you start going and see if she feels less threatened by it? Or toss in the towel, but the path you're on now is nothing but pain for you both.

A phrase you'll see a lot on SI is, "actions, not words."

People do what they prioritize and typically they prioritize what is important to them. It doesn't matter what folks _say_ so much as what they _do_, because in what they do you see what really wins their attention and effort.

Google this phrase, 'psychology "personal narrative" ', and this one 'psychology, "personal agency" ' (the bits between the single quotes) and read up on those a bit. By betraying you, by lying, she's broken your 'personal narrative', which is each person's story of their life. How they (you, me, everyone) got to where they are now. Personal agency is having full knowledge of what is going on around you so that you can make correct, informed, decisions about yourself. She took your personal agency when she lied and hid things, when she bad-mouthed you to others, and when she talks of one thing to friends and says another thing to you.

As a thought experiment, imagine yourself six months before you met your WW. A friend says, "Hey, BSPheonix, I met this girl you'll like. She's really hung up on a guy now, but in six months she'll be free and then 8 years later she'll cheat, lie about it, bad-mouth you to everyone, and then lie some more. After that she'll play "the victim", not want to discuss anything about it, and then chastise you for being hurt and not getting over it on her schedule. Want to meet her?"

What would you say to that offer? If it isn't the same thing that you're _doing_ now, then really think about why it isn't.

About your kids - I was a child of a sexually, physically, mentally, and emotionally abusive Mother and a Father who didn't really know how to relate. FOO has a long tail. Anyway, Mom and Dad got divorced. I was ecstatic and lived with Dad. Mom and Dad decided to annul the divorce. I, at 15, cried, sobbed really, about it when I was alone. It was back into the fire for me. So don't assume that you'll be doing the kids a disservice if you leave. Really think about why you're deciding to stay. I'm not saying leave or stay, I am saying really think about why you're doing what you're doing and -then- think about why you think that way. Introspect deeply about your own "whys".

Anyway, once you've got a handle on personal narrative and personal agency, and the trauma that results from losing them, then go up to your PhD wife and say, "Why did you think that it was okay to break my personal narrative and take my personal agency by your actions and words?" and, "And why do you now say that you have nothing left to 'fix' in IC if you can so casually break someones narrative and steal their agency and then berate them when they don't get over the trauma to your timeline?"

I do wish you the best of luck, BSPheonix. I hope that it all works out for you, and soon.

I agree with things said above.

It seems you're both taking defensive stands (yours is certainly understandable)

- when her mom said those things, what did your wife respond? - I am asking bc early on my stepdad txt similar and worse things to me about my BS. Back then, I just said: yea. I did not protect my BS from what my step dad was saying. I did not stand up for myself or the relationship. And it should be an instinct to do that.

That being said, parents will use the tools they have available to them,, so am I upset(understatement) with my stepdad for saying what he did? Yes! But, he used the tools he had. Not to excuse what was said or how hurtful it is to you ,but mostly that is why.

However, if she has done all the work needed, then her response should have been to defend you. If she did not, then there is certainly more work ahead!

I get that sometimes it is easier than other times. But, overall, I believe nobody is ever truly done with counseling...

The other thing with counseling... empathy, putting you first.. Instead of her saying no, I wish she would ask you why you are under the impression she needs further IC. That she would be curious why you think the way you do and put herself in your shoes. Be humble. And heck, even if she would not think at first she would need IC, would saying ok i will go if it is that important to you hurt her?! No. (this is of course not the best solution). But yea, there is def. some work ahead in regards to not just lies, but trust building and empathy and letting defensive behavior go.

[This message edited by Rose2206 at 3:02 PM, October 5th (Monday)]