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I do t think k he did it out of revenge. He did it out of sadness. But all it did was end up destabilizing us further and I can’t think of a single way it helped anything.

I do not think a thing so destructive as betrayal can ever help anything.

Not even sadness likely, it can only deepen the hole.
It takes away, does not add anything.

I laughed it all, and she answered "maybe we should see other people", I laughed, told her "It's an excellent idea" sent her a link to tinder, and encouraged to find her next OM there.

She started to freak out. I told her I am done, do not care anymore.

It's funny/not funny how that works, huh? I played the pick me game for a couple of weeks after I discovered my wife's affair and she pretty much just continued to shit all over me. It wasn't until I made phone calls to divorce lawyers right in front of her that she changed her tune big time. Like your wife, my wife "freaked out" too, and started begging me to not leave. That was about 8 months ago and she's not wavered or changed since. Now she lives for transparency and to let me know she loves only me. She never wants to spend time apart now.

I've been wondering if she might be limerant with me now, too. She hangs on my every word and seeks only to please me now. It's actually pretty intense, and a complete change from her baseline behavior.

There's a difference between limerence and hanging on to someone you're about to lose and showing real and reliable love and desire.

I do believe that during her A, my W realized she wanted me a lot more than she wanted ow. After d-day, she showed it in ways that she had never done before.

Limerence was defined by the woman would coined the term as 'the feeling of being in love,' so maybe limerence is part of R.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:09 PM, Saturday, January 17th]

Limerence was defined by the woman would coined the term as 'the feeling of being in love,' so maybe limerence is part of R.

She is repeating how "we are 20 again" and how "I would do anything to turn back time and start fresh".

With stars in her eyes. All the memories, how we are repeating them. (her feeling, not mine anymore)

Is a dopamine flush, I think she might be experiencing it.

I've been wondering if she might be limerant with me now, too. She hangs on my every word and seeks only to please me now. It's actually pretty intense, and a complete change from her baseline behavior.

It's possible. I am happy for you.
For me, it is all I ever wanted, it might be too late.
We'll see

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 5:47 PM, Saturday, January 17th]

It is hard to exclude I might have been a significant cause in her decisions

You are not the cause of anything she did. She had choices. She choose badly. That is 100% on her.

None of us can make another person think, feel, or do anything. We all choose those things for ourselves. We may influence others, but we don't control them.

She has low self-worth and self-esteem. My H had essentially the same feelings about himself. He needed validation from others to feel good about himself. When he felt like he was a failure with me, he chose to get that validation outside our M.

He should've told me how he felt. He should've given me the chance to confirm or deny what he was thinking.

You are not the cause of anything she did. She had choices. She choose badly. That is 100% on her.

None of us can make another person think, feel, or do anything. We all choose those things for ourselves. We may influence others, but we don't control them.

She has low self-worth and self-esteem. My H had essentially the same feelings about himself. He needed validation from others to feel good about himself. When he felt like he was a failure with me, he chose to get that validation outside our M.

He should've told me how he felt. He should've given me the chance to confirm or deny what he was thinking.

Thank you cocoplus.

Please understand I did not say so from a place of insecurity or self blaming: I know my worth, if in the past I was "confident" (to a good extent it was true, I had traumas and insecurities but I was sure of myself) to day I am Confident.

I said that because with OMen, her previous boyfriends she never, ever, not once, gave signs of infidelity.
She was submissive, she was treated in a humiliating way, she was unhappy. But she was loyal.

With me she might have restored her happiness and self esteem, she might have find me exciting etc. But she betrayed and humiliated me and honestly, I did not know her or her previous men before me, but I doubt she received this much 'evil' from those guys as she felt entitled to bestow upon our relationship.

I can see girls and women "appreciating" me as an 'ideal partner', is not so bad, women with secure attachment are out there and I feel I could live a happy and fulfilling life with one.

With my wife, although she calls me her "only safe relationship" I might have had a paradoxically destructive effect on her.
And she does not like what she see in the mirror now.

Tomorrow it will be the first check with MC, I have no idea yet if it will be useful.

Her response is stressful, half hopeful and half not looking forward.
Apparently it should be useful according to her therapist.

First session a bit of introduction.

She minimizes, rewrites the narrative again, I notice her that she did, she admits to it, and she tells has no idea why her brain goes into automatic (she was not denying she immediately realized that it was not the facts, and asked 'why am I doing it?).

But then she crashes into victimhood, tears and how it is unfair for her.

Session ended, MC said there is a very complex issue.

She wants one separate session with each other next.

I am ok with it, let's see. I Asked her to go first to avoid any bias I can introduce.

I imagine it can happen that the first MC session is the betrayer in denial and self commiseration (or not?)'

She was very upset that I told from the start my current stance (as I see the present) is that I will divorce her because I cannot see her as safe or ready for a real R as for today. She asked if I am here just for our child and I said yes.

I only realized that while she can really feel shame and pain for herself she is not at all at the stage to understand the magnitude of the pain I suffered.

And I am not super happy, because to go back, I need to abandon my detachment from her to go through the story again.
And I feel every single emotion again, like it was happening now. I guess the only good thing is they pass immediately, relieving that kind of pain is physical, not a thing I want to go through too often.

Opinion from more experienced BS / WS on MC?

If it can help or makes sense I am committed.

But Fuck it hurts.
I forgot how much it fucking hurts.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:44 PM, Tuesday, January 20th]

So now, a second clinically trained professional has been left with the impression your WW's case is complicated, as I understand it. The problem with doing MC is that kind of counselor is not trained or paid to drill deeper into one "partner's" psychological profile. Rather, MC is designed to treat the Marriage as the client, so in cases where a serious psychological problem is flagged by a professional, I don't understand why an ethical MC would want to continue working with both people. Nor why you would "jolly along" with the idea that some "marriage coaching" can exert influence on each of you to fix what is going on inside one of you.

I did that immediately after D-Day 1 in 2002 and it was a big mistake: went to MC for two hour sessions each week with a Master's level intern (at a religious charity so it wasn't expensive) but after his year of internship ended and he had to summarize his work with us, both he and his supervisor strongly recommended in writing that my SAWH seek IC (which he never did; I learned the hard way that he he would only go to any counselling if he thought I was going to go along with him, like a crutch.) It was a waste of my time and emotional energy and my trauma was never adequately addressed even with 120 minute sessions for a year, since the counselor naturally got interested in trying to unravel the messed-up mental gymnastics going on inside my WH. There were times I felt like I was "shadowing" the counselor or even eavesdropping on a complicated, crazy mess, but this is NOT what I needed.

MC in many cases of infidelity places the wrong dynamic on both the helping professional and the client. The therapist often ends up "refereeing" "his" story versus "her" story. Round and round you go.

I wanted to go back to the mention of possible SA in the wayward’s background.

The OP said that his WW has not said this happened to her, but that her FOO was chaotic.

My personal history includes a chaotic FOO. It also includes SA by a family member.

And I never told a soul until last year. 62 years after it began.

I told my husband, after a lot of therapy. He had no idea before that.

So just because someone doesn’t tell, doesn’t mean it’s not a factor.

And today she had her individual session with couple therapy. She wanted to share it with me.

She was asked how many betrayals she did, so she was elusive about telling me and only mentioned about the 2 she admitted (the other I know of she still did not admit, or admitted to some than rolled back to denial instantly).

I only got the curated version from my WW, but still this is interesting:

- She does not feel they are betrayals at all.

What she feels about the first, the biggest one, the one who destroyed me for half my life:

I met this guy, and then she broke up with M (me), so it was something clean and normal.

A month later when we met (an she dumped me like trash), I was feeling powerful because I was, for once, the one ending a relationship and I had someone here to form a family instead of a long distance relationship.

When he dumped me 3 months after, I felt nothing for him, no heartbreak. I started immediately to miss M. (me) and felt that I lost him forever, so I went to him to get him back.

It was innocent because we broke up, I do not feel it was betrayal because I did nothing wrong, and we had sex only few times before breaking up with M. (in her mind with condom is fine).

I did not wanted to tell him or to admit to it because I did not want M to suffer.

When M presents me his version it makes sense logically, but I feel resistance to accept it.

I would like to be able to understand his interpretation of the facts, and I would like to ask you if it is possible that it was the cause of his collapse and PTSD issues the following 17 years.

This is why she feels zero guilt, she has no remorse.

I do not feel like I even want to comment right now. I see it otherwise, am I insane?

p.S>

By insane I do not mean I have any doubts. I KNOW what happened.

I know the lies.

I remember her joy and smiles on my pain.

I remember the hypocrisy and the disgust.

It was the most horrible betrayal I ever heard from other people stories or narratives.

17 years after, even if I am ready to walk away, to leave her for this, even if I am detached, going back to that memory makes me feel all the pain like it is now. It's in my body, is not just a memory.

But she tells it so convincingly, so candidly, like is a daily regular occurrence, that from the outside it sounds believable.

I find it honestly chilling.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:26 PM, Wednesday, January 21st]

Honestly, you find it chilling because it IS chilling!

Her "reality contact" is pretty weak. It is no wonder the red flags popped up with the counselors so quickly. This kind of light switch on-off emotional make-up strongly suggests a Borderline Personality Disorder . Do you need further evidence?