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BS Questions for WS's - Part 13

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Utterlybaffled posted 5/18/2020 10:09 AM

I had posted before but things have changed so quickly and I am just at a loss how to proceed.
Back story...H started EA 2 years ago, 1st dday came about 4 months into it when I looked at phone log, even though i knew just had no proof. Since then it has been a string of lies and secrets. Throughout 1st year it was every few months something would be revealed to me, EA turned to a PA, still could not stay away from her, kicked him out he feel apart made promises started to work but only lasted 2 months then he choose to leave to "fix" himself. He has been out of house for 10 months, again lies and secrets found out he has been seeing her the whole time, after more gaslighting and promises he was never going to keep I realized I just was not wanting this version of who he has become and at same time all of a sudden I felt a huge change in him. He said we needed to talk and at that time I made the decision I was done with this and told him I no longer wanted to be married to this person he has become (first time in 26 years I have ever even mentioned not wanting to be with him). He told me he did not know when he could get himself together and he no longer wants to make me sit around waiting for him. 2 days later he is on phone crying to me about how the last thing he wants is to divorse me (he knew I was calling a lawyer to gather my info) that this all is too real now and he never wants to be without me. Saying that he has made so many mistakes and he only pulled away and said for me not to wait because AP was making ultimatums, making threats to call me (which she started to do but I refuse to answer) making threats to put lies out there about him. Over the last 10 days he has been open and honest about what has been happening and how he knows he is in limerance, knows how much he has screwed up and feels trapped by OW. He is worried her accusations will affect his job, cause police involvement, etc. He states she is always hitting him, making threats of violence with him (fyi she already has a restraining order on her because she attacked ex husbands girlfriend, she broke the order and was arrested for it). I have told him from dday 1 that I believed she was unstable, she was blackmailing him from day 1, and just from learning things about her over the past 2 years. She is really the bunny boiling type and I believe that he is scared and worried about what she will do when he walks away. He keeps saying he needs to put a plan together to get away but he knows he wants to get away. Said he wants to tell me everything, put it all on the table so she or anyone can never tell me something I do not know (1st time he has ever stated that) he has been talking to me about her everyday telling me what they talked about, again 1st time for that, but I just do not know how to trust he means it this time. She has this crazy hold on him and even if he walks away how do I know he will stay away, she really is the crazy kind that stands in the middle of the street while he is working till he talks to her, she has gone to his coworkers houses crying and begging for them to call my H when he was trying to stay away from him, she brings her daughter into it and had her follow us a few months ago. Do WH eventually get to a point where they really see the crazy and have enough? Can he be strong enough to stay away from her for good this time? I am at the point where I am staying cautious, told him I will not reassure him or make promises, that his actions will be what matters, and that if he keeps talking I will keep listening. I know he is not lying about her behaviors or his fears, but what I do not know is if his fears are becoming an excuse to stay with her because he is really not ready to leave? Again so many lies and secrets hard to know what is real anymore

ff4152 posted 5/18/2020 10:31 AM

UtterlyBaffled

Personally, I donít buy it. Where was this remorse months ago? Only now when heís about to lose you does he suddenly wake up.

IMO, if he really valued you and your marriage, he would be moving heaven and earth to get away from this woman. Instead heís giving you a lot of empty promises all while continuing to live with this woman. Heís at risk of losing his job? Too bad. Thatís a consequence. Heís worried about police involvement, he would have gotten away from her and gone to the police. Since she has a record of being abusive, itís not a stretch for the cops to believe him.

If he really means what he says, have him sign a post nup which favors you. It also might make sense to start the D process anyway. D take time and you can watch what he does. Will he continue to give you crocodile tears or will he take action? If he proves himself over time, you can always stop the D. If he doesnít, you will not have lost any time waiting for him.

[This message edited by ff4152 at 10:31 AM, May 18th (Monday)]

Chaos posted 5/18/2020 13:34 PM

What do you feel when you see us having a bad time of it?

JBWD posted 5/18/2020 16:34 PM

What do you feel when you see us having a bad time of it?

You know how in movies about submarines thereís always a scene where someone is trapped behind a flooded bulkhead and we watch/experience their painful death, helpless to intervene? That is frequently where it starts.

But add on that the knowledge that weíre the ones who blew that hole in it.

So Iíd say immense pain coupled with the burden of knowing, irrevocably, that itís pain we caused.

ETA- The frequent point about how recovery timelines misalign is also a source of pain. Understanding that I can now point somewhat readily to mechanisms that had I understood/seen before, could have addressed how I lied to myself and the family I betrayed.

[This message edited by JBWD at 4:38 PM, May 18th (Monday)]

Stupiddiva posted 5/18/2020 21:49 PM

For waywards please.

What happens in your mind when you get caught out and dday arrived and from then on you seem to fight for your marriage and want to stay with your BS more than anything....when really you could have a world full of thrills and sexual encounters without ever having to hide it again...but you choose to be with your BS and almost love them more than you ever have....what is going on in your head? and generally what is your thoughts on the AP once you realise your BS is the the one you want to be with and make it work....

JBWD posted 5/20/2020 12:08 PM

Stupiddiva (GOTTA fix that name!!!)

Given your timing and other posts, Iíd be wary of such grand pronouncements from a WH who still seems to lack an understanding of what heís done.

Immediately after DDay, I was convinced I was all in. And I was convinced that I loved my BW more than ever. But I lacked the skills needed to try and cultivate a healthy M while the old one was still burning. And the biggest challenge to that is that it takes time for a selfish person to see how selfish theyíve been- Perhaps throughout his entire life(!) While that perspective changes his understanding of love is likely to change drastically- For the better.

In short summary I acutely felt my BWís pain, but allowed my guilt and fear of individual loss to assume an equal place of prominence. The two items could not exist side by side and so the natural one to fail was the empathy that was underdeveloped to start with.

This all takes time and his understanding needs to get better rapidly. I always believe that it can, his part in that requires constant honesty and the most open mind heís ever had. Itís a lot to expect but not a lot to ask.

BraveSirRobin posted 5/20/2020 13:56 PM

What happens in your mind when you get caught out and dday arrived and from then on you seem to fight for your marriage and want to stay with your BS more than anything....when really you could have a world full of thrills and sexual encounters without ever having to hide it again...but you choose to be with your BS and almost love them more than you ever have....what is going on in your head?
One flaw in wayward thinking is that we take what we have for granted. We don't see that we're getting 80% of what we want/need out of our relationship, which is a pretty good deal. A healthy person who felt something really important was missing would work to build it within their marriage. Nor do we consider how our expectations may be selfish and unrealistic. Instead, we tell ourselves we're deprived, and we grab for that last 20% with someone else, and then we overvalue them. We act like just because we now feel up at 100%, the affair is supplying it all. Then D-Day hits. Our BS is furious and about to walk out the door with 80% of our lives. We realize that the 20% supplied by the AP is totally inadequate to make us happy. We scramble to salvage what we can.

A remorseful WS will learn that that kind of math is sick and that it is not anyone's job to make you feel 100% fulfilled. That level of peace comes from being a decent person inside. A WS in false R will try to nail down the 80% and then start missing the 20% again, either in the form of the AP or some other external validation. And then the cycle repeats.

Utterlybaffled posted 5/20/2020 14:19 PM

Bravesirrobin...so how do you break that cycle? When can the BS believe this cycle is broken and the WS is going to really be done with the A?

BraveSirRobin posted 5/20/2020 16:32 PM

Remorse. The WS has to let go of control. This is about the hardest thing for a wayward to do, because we are not comfortable with ourselves at all. Accepting that we may end up alone, without outside validation, feels like deciding not to breathe.

Waywards who are doing the work recognize that they are no longer in the driver's seat of R. They don't avoid answering questions, they don't resent being doubted, they don't conceal the facts of the A, and they don't demand to speed up the process. They don't focus on fixing the BS or the marriage to "get back to normal." They recognize that their version of normal was severely fucked up. They look inward with vulnerability, and they share what they find there.

Utterlybaffled posted 5/20/2020 20:47 PM

Bravesirrobin...thank you for your response. After so much gas lighting it's hard to trust myself let alone WH. I am learning that all I can do is hold my own standards and let his actions speak for him because his words have been so dishonest. I know that I am not the same person I was when his A began, i am stronger and more secure in myself and although I want to give our marriage a chance he has to SHOW me he wants this marriage because his words mean nothing to me. Guess I just still question what I should expect of him if he is truely looking to fight for our marriage.

BraveSirRobin posted 5/20/2020 21:41 PM

I would say that your WH isn't doing the work yet. He's still in panic mode. When he files a restraining order against the OW, one that will prevent him legally from having any contact with her at all, that will be the first sign that he has potential. Right now, it's all just empty posturing.

Utterlybaffled posted 5/21/2020 06:38 AM

Bravesirtobin, thank you that is exactly what my instincts tell me and it is nice to have confirmation of that. I told him I can no longer be a part of him and hear about how awful she is to him until he is ready to actually walk away and do exactly that put a restraining order against her. So I will just live my life the best i can and keep my distance from whatever toxic life he has created for himself until, or if, he ever finds the wisdom and strength to walk away. Thank you for being a realistic voice

Mickie500 posted 5/21/2020 15:38 PM

WS- not sure if you can help me understand this-
My WH gets so angry with me when I push him to be with the AP. Why?

Iíll say- ďif you want to leave please just go now. We can make it fine for the kids but I donít want anyone who wants to be somewhere else.Ē

He gets angry and says if I wanted her I would be with her. Why are you trying to push me to her?

But you lied to be with her wtf changed?

JBWD posted 5/21/2020 15:44 PM

Mickie:
He gets angry because it sounds like rejection to him. What he ďwantsĒ is for you to beg him to stay because he believes thatís what should happen.

DONíT DO THAT though.

He expects you to want him. You certainly are nowhere near that decision, and he needs to be patient. He is trying to foster the illusion of agency for you, and when it yields a result he doesnít like he pouts.

Utterlybaffled posted 5/21/2020 16:43 PM

Mickie
My WH does the same thing, he does not get angry exactly he gets really hurt and then will come back with all the right words of loving me and only me and so on. It happens everytime I finally have had enough and tell him to please just go live his life, and yes I realize that it is still happening because it always has worked before I always believe his words (well I actually never believe them but I always want to and let myself be fooled) This last time I have not caved, told him I believe not 1 word out of his mouth and his actions are the only thing that will even make me somewhat give him a chance same words of how he will prove it to me and he is done with AP but clearly he is still not ready to end it with her because he has not done anything yet. So all I can do is leave him alone and live my life until he wakes the hell up and is courageous enough to face everything he has done or I find a new way of life without him. But it really is so difficult, the back and forth and you finally get strong enough to walk away and then they come back with exactly what to say to make you want to keep trying. Its cruel and psychologically I get it, I know WS are not in their own clear minds and they want it all and i do believe my WH has alot of shame and guilt but it's now just an excuse that i am over and he needs to sh*t or get off the pot

Lucky77 posted 5/21/2020 18:33 PM

Mickie

Affairs are only fun if they are illicit and covert. Theyíre fed under the cover of darkness by sneaky behavior. Once youíve exposed the affair to light itís not so fun. The adulterer is merely a two timer or a poly at that point. You have spoiled all his fun and he doesnít care for that. He wants the old times back when he had the side piece.

BraveSirRobin posted 5/21/2020 19:18 PM

He gets angry and says if I wanted her I would be with her. Why are you trying to push me to her?
JBWD is right, and also, you're depriving him of his martyrdom. He wants credit for giving up something fun for your benefit. If you say "Fuck that, no one is going to thank you for doing what you were supposed to do all along, and if you think she's such a big loss, be my guest," he can't cast himself as the long suffering hero. He has to admit that he should be grateful for a chance to stay, and not the other way around.

JSS1227 posted 5/23/2020 09:55 AM

Hello WSís,

First, I just want to thank those of you that take the time to answer on this thread. There are far too few WSís that stick around on SI, and even fewer that come here to answer questions, so thanks for taking the time to do so.

My question is regarding wedding anniversaries; whether you Ríd, Díd, attempted either, or something in between....how do you feel about your wedding anniversary? I understand that whether or not you celebrate it is probably up to your BS, but how do YOU feel about it?

I see this topic brought up a lot in the General and Reconciliation forums by BSís, and BSís feelings on the topic are greatly varied. Seeing the topic brought up again got me thinking about my own wedding anniversary (2nd one since dday) that is upcoming, and also made me wonder how WSís feel about the day. Iím sure feelings will vary, just like for BSís, depending on the situation, but Iím interested in hearing how WSís feel about it and why.

JBWD posted 5/23/2020 11:59 AM

JSS-
I get beyond sad thinking about what my BW expected after our wedding day and what she got instead. I feel a lot of guilt over the simple things I could have done to make myself the partner I promised to be on that day. I still have a wedding photo on the nightstand (might be time to do something different with that) and seeing how light and absolutely joyful she appears guts me to think about where I've taken us since.

ETA it further highlights for me all the reasons I fell in love with her. Betrayal has taken its toll on her and it hurts to know that she can't see what's amazing about her through the pain. Things that I still want to be a part of but can't because of the damage I've done- Which most days I worry is irreparable for her.

[This message edited by JBWD at 12:04 PM, May 23rd (Saturday)]

BraveSirRobin posted 5/23/2020 13:04 PM

Interesting question. For all special occasions since D-Day 2, I've really just thought about how the day is going to look through my BH's eyes and tried to convey support for that.

Last summer, I was reading a BW's thread in which she talked about the difficulty of walking down the Hallmark aisle. She hated facing all the happy cards and looking for something she could give her WH that didn't feel like a farce. That really stuck with me, so I tried writing some greeting cards from the BS viewpoint as an empathy exercise. I shared them with my BH, and he found them very cathartic. Most of them are only a line or two long, but as with haiku, you can convey a lot in a few words if you understand the context. Eventually, I did them for all the holidays, and he made them into a book.

I guess the short answer is that I'm a mirror when it comes to those events. How he feels is how I feel. I'm not sure whether that's the right approach, now that I think about it, but it's true nonetheless.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 6:36 PM, May 24th (Sunday)]

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