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Caught Her By Accident

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Buster123 posted 9/8/2019 20:00 PM

I also like the way your handling this terrible situation, I also agree with the postnup as suggested (no alimony and she doesn't touch your retirement) in case she cheats again in the future, remember she's now a proven cheater and a liar and of course she would have continued cheating on you had you not caught her, I also suggest she starts looking for another job where she doesn't have to travel, part of the consequences for her huge betrayal, I would also insist on NC with anyone who knew about the A, including girlfriend with open marriage (not a good role model btw), one last thing, demand she gets tested for STDs (you should too), some STDs can be transmitted via saliva, it also sends a stronger message of the gravity of her actions, putting your health at risk with potentially deadly diseases.

ShutterHappy posted 9/8/2019 20:53 PM

The affair was stopped. You got all the information you need.
You WW is doing the right things.

I believe the story you outlined, I also believe the simplest explanation is the correct one.

You have the choice to R or D. You can even do R and change your mind later and D. You’ll be just fine, but it will take longer than you expect

It will be a long process that you’ll have to take one day at a time like you said.

Michigan posted 9/8/2019 21:02 PM

NOTHING THAT SHE HAS DONE IS ACCEPTABLE, AND OUR FUTURE DEPENDS ENTIRELY ON HER ACTIONS.


BeyondRage


The way I interpret the above is that if she does it again you will divorce her. If this is true you need make it real and demonstrate that it’s not a bluff. Otherwise it will be as if you put her on “Double Secret Probation.”

Originally used in the 1978 American college classic film "Animal House," dean Wormer puts the rowdy Delta Tau Chi fraternity on a "double secret probation," since the Delta House is already on probation.

As others have said you do that by getting a postnuptial agreement. Even better get a divorce with good terms now and shack up. She will know that if she does it again you can just walk.
The sex act means nothing to her but your relationship apparently does. That’s her only motivation not to cheat.

[This message edited by Michigan at 9:50 PM, September 8th (Sunday)]

Trdd posted 9/8/2019 21:55 PM

Great work BeyondRage.

A few thoughts:

IC is to fix her inner self so she can be safe for you and the marriage. I agree you don't want a whacky therapist but your wife may end up needing therapy to fix herself.

She needs to read Not Just Friends or something like that to zero in on how to create boundaries. No more races is a great place to start but she needs to be sending very different signals than she is today. An attractive woman can send signals and have boundaries that tell men I am not available. Some men will still try but most will get it.

Your daughters will probably figure out something is wrong pretty quickly once you are in their presence. Keeping a lid on marital tension after an A is pretty tough. Have you talked about what you are going to say if they ask?

Marz posted 9/8/2019 22:01 PM

Your WW appeared guilt free to you. You were blindsided and only caught her by accident. Life just went on for her. Live at home, travel for work, get some on the side, race, get some on the side. She had a second life but wasn't going to leave you with the life style, security, image, etc. Except when discovered. What I see is regret. Regret at getting caught. Not remorse. There are positive signs, as I've written above, but they only show potential

Seemed odd to me too. You have to wonder if this was her first rodeo.

I think I'd fight a little deeper. Pull the data from your phone records.

Mene posted 9/8/2019 22:08 PM

I agree with Marz. This may not be the only times she has had extramarital affairs and sex. Given how she planned it all.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but she hasn’t given you any reasons (all non justifiable) about why she did this, either.

ramius posted 9/8/2019 23:32 PM

You are very early in this process. 5 weeks. Some people know immediately what they are going to do. For others it takes some time.

Since your sister is a lawyer, getting a rock solid post-nup should be easy. Your WW agreeing to one would be a concrete sign that she is somewhat remorseful.

Your sister can also inform you about your options if you live in a state that allows "At Fault" divorce. FYI...sleeping with a cheating spouse after discovering their infidelity is usually seen as tacit acceptance and disallows the option to file an fault claim.

Smart to have her keep her job. Her being unemployed would complicate a divorce.

So now you have most of the info you need to make an informed decision.Now you have to sit and mull it all over.

-She slept with multiple men.
-Planned and prepared for it.
-Bought new lingerie to be sexy for them.
-Potentially exposed you to STD's.
-etc etc

Can you accept it? Or is it a deal breaker? Only you can decide. And it may take some time.

And BTW....Plan B? Nope. You being home to hold down the fort and be a good provider was always in her plan.

Cheaters only have one Plan A...themselves. What they want. What makes them happy. Spouses, AP's, Kids, family...those are not really included in the cheater math. After they are exposed, and the orgasm train a jumped the tracks, now the math changes. Now spouses, kids, family, marriage mean EVERYTHING to them. Standard operating procedure.

40YOSL posted 9/9/2019 03:03 AM

Thanks for the update, from the beginning I believe you have really been on top of this!

Your posts today have confirmed my suspicion the OW/friend had not really pressured her. What OW/friend did was to open WW's eyes to a lifestyle WW hadn't previously considered. I'm guessing WW knew you well enough not to suggest an open marriage plus I doubt she would be ok with you having other women on the side! So WW decided that a one-sided open marriage would work best for her. As long as you never found out there would be no problem. That obviously hasn't worked out too well for her.

This wasn't an exit affair. Her attitude from point of Discovery showed that she didn't want to D. Also, the AP were not the type that anyone would consider a viable Plan A or Plan B or any other letter. No, there doesn't appear to be any type of backup plan. However, a year down the road she very well may have met someone older who might have had everything she could want in a Plan A. That's the problem, this wasn't a MLC nor a ONS. The way she transitioned from OM1 to OM2 indicates she intended to continue this lifestyle and was clearly successful at it!

You were VERY fortunate to have discovered this as early as you did. I fully expect that she would have eventually expanded her activities from out of town races to all unaccompanied out of town travel.

She has written in her own NC communication which I have NOT sent. These guys are 30 year old snot noses who would probably laugh that off.

The point of a NC letter is to communicate the desire for NC. Ghosting leaves it unclear. If OM happened to see WW somewhere he very likely might approach her to learn why she stopped communicating and whether he had unknowing done something to offend her. A NC letter is quite clear that she wants NC period! So OM sees her somewhere he knows WW doesn't want him to approach her.

Another thing that wasn't clear to me was whether WW has been tested for STDs. I recall you saying you had been tested but I don't recall you telling about her. She clearly needs to be tested if she has not already been.

Also your comments about not needing an attorney because your attorney sister is there if you decide to D. Have you informed your sister about WW? I would not suggest you inform your sister until you actually decide to D. I'm all for exposing the A to some members of WW family. It's a consequence of the A, they will understand any D will have been brought on by WW actions and hopefully they will assist WW in changing her ways. However, exposing to your family generally will, to some extent, forever change their relationship with WW.

If you haven't actually exposed WW to your sister then you should get a consultation with some other attorney. This is not to file for D, if you later decide to D then use your sister. This is to (1) get info regarding what might happen if you decide to later D and (2) see about having a postnuptual agreement drawn up that gives you and your daughters addition protection if WW gets caught being unfaithful in the future. Her signing it will be an incentive to you for continuing the M and a deterrent to her should she be tempted to cheat in the future. Hopefully, this might allow you to sleep a little better knowing that if she cheats in 10 years the only result would not simply be additional alimony and assets going to the cheater.

I very strongly urge you to require WW to start an extended period of IC with an IC who is well versed in dealing with infidelity. This will not be a MC who is used to allocating blame to both parties. If an IC suggests that the BS is responsible in any way for the A they should be immediately fired!!! Your WW went off the tracks and she needs to work hard with an IC to find out why. "Because she wanted to" just doesn't cut it. She needs to go much deeper to figure her "why". If she doesn't do this then you're married to a land mine waiting for something to detonate it. This is part of the reason a truly successful R generally takes 3 to 5 years. You need to feel safe and this is one of the best ways to do it. If she skips IC you will be doing it at your peril.

Is WW remorseful? The simple answer is NO. Anyone who thinks a wayward is remorseful after this short of a time after D-day is simply kidding themselves. This is no criticism of your WW, I can only think of one WW who was remorseful at D-day and that was because she secretly had been in IC for years prior to D-day dealing with her infidelity and her IC had her doing extensive empathetic practices imagining and journaling how she would feel if her spouse had been unfaithful as she had.

You WW is just feeling deep regret because she has blown up her marriage and her life is going to change. How you feel about her has changed, her parents know and now look at her differently. Her children and her friends will know the reason if you D. She doesn't have a Plan B what is to become of her life? This is all her fault! Why did she do it? She is in a panic and just wishes she could wake up from this nightmare. If she can just figure out how to quickly have you heal maybe everything will be ok for her. Please notice this is ALL ABOUT HER. It's about stopping the bad things happening to her.

Deep Remorse would be WW internalizing the pain she caused you to feel and being willing to do anything to stop your pain, even if what is required would harm her such as D would. Remorse is about what's happening to YOU, it's not self centered like regret.

The good news is that you caught this early and from what you are telling us she sounds like an excellent candidate for R if you decide to offer that gift. Take your time to decide. Do what's best for YOU. We will support what ever decision you make. If you decide R PLEASE, PLEASE get her into IC and IC for you might also be a good idea.

Wishing you the best in dealing with this!!

BigBlueEyes posted 9/9/2019 03:52 AM

Congratulations in gaining all this knowledge so fast, yes you are correct most people don't get it, even after yrs looking for it.

My only concern would be her WHY's
she hasn't blamed you, she hasn't given any reason apart from she was in control & she wanted to...i'm concerned she will still want this sometime in your future if she doesn't work on her issues in IC.
Its only my Opinion but it maybe something you consider.

You sound so strong & in control of everything I truly hope it works out for you.

Good luck

paboy posted 9/9/2019 06:44 AM

I was waiting, wondering what your next step was going to be.

The results whether successful or not will only show over time.

Throughout her life, your wife has always had a high endorphin release/crave. This affair may have been created because of this.

Now.. How is she going to deal with this. How is she going to replace/appease this adrenaline rush.

As an example, I love chocolate. My wife knows, my children, my grandchildren. Some times, I can do without for a short period, but then I have to indulge. Now, at some time, I fully realize that it is not good for my health, and that I will have to address this..But, I still indulge and will probably only address this when my doctor starts advising about the consequences.

Of course this is a simplified scenario, but there is a lot in common. How does she now control the adrenaline rush when she has clearly enjoyed it.

You and her need to fully address this and how best to deal with it.

In my case, probably through consequences. Yours maybe the same. although, at the end of the day, if she loves the rush only serious consequences works.

Best thoughts for you heading forward.

Butforthegrace posted 9/9/2019 06:59 AM

This thread is such a stark example of a WW who literally created a secret, one-sided open marriage, simply because she wanted to.

The fundamental issue is that if your wedding vows were any version of traditional vows, this is something she specifically promised you she would not do, while looking you in the eye, in front of family and friends.

Now, presumably, she is again promising she wont do it. What is it about this promise that makes you think she wont break it, like she did last time? I reckon you don't want to live the rest of your life being a "marriage cop". Instead, you'd like to trust her. For trust to work, she needs to figure out what is wrong with her head, why did she feel entitled to arrogate the secret right to break your trust this time?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:00 AM, September 9th (Monday)]

Thumos posted 9/9/2019 07:27 AM

This thread is such a stark example of a WW who literally created a secret, one-sided open marriage, simply because she wanted to.
The fundamental issue is that if your wedding vows were any version of traditional vows, this is something she specifically promised you she would not do, while looking you in the eye, in front of family and friends.

I know it goes without saying, but please take this part very seriously. Your future happiness is at stake. This is your life, and like me, you have taken more trips around the sun than you are likely to take in the future.

Your pain is going to linger as your God-given amazing brain starts to process the complexity of what has happened. As your abilities to think rationally become more clear over time, you will begin to puzzle this through logically and you will come to some inescapable conclusions.

In my own experience and likely the experience of many other BH’s, we learn that our wives actually have a conditional and contextual view of marital vows. They look at them as a rote recitation in a ritual ceremony rather than a binding pact. This can’t be elided or rug-swept. It can’t be something the WW explains away.

This is a fundamental difference in world views, and why I warned the OP earlier to proceed with caution and consider his desire to reconcile or not very carefully. If you have two people with such fundamentally different world views, they may love each other but the idea of reconciling is logically incoherent in the face of this.

Now, look, I know that there are many WH’s who don’t take their vows seriously. But if you pin most men down, they will admit they broke their vows, while most WW’s have great difficulty admitting to this, developing empathy or even bringing themselves to deliver a genuine contrite apology (indeed, it seems common in marriages for women to have difficulty saying “sorry” on even typically small matters). Why? Because men seem to have — whether because of social conditioning or an actual inborn gender difference, or a combination of the two in which social conditioning grew out of a physical gender difference in worldview — a stronger and clearer conception of the idea of honor.

Honor is a more foreign concept for women, particularly WW’s. I’m not saying women don’t understand honor at all, lest I be accused of misogyny. They understand it conceptually, but not in the visceral way men do. There are root differences in gender carried out on the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual planes.

I’m saying that the notion of honor seems to hold a much stronger presence in the minds of men across most human cultures. One can see a through line from samurai Japan to ancient Romans to modern-day American valorization of military service (a phenomenon I hail). It doesn’t seem accidental that male culture in most of the world has developed this idea. It seems to be both a strong longing and strong “check” on men.

I believe this is why many WW’s are so easily able to cast aside marital vows and continue to view them blithely after D-Day. Their words are essentially meaningless here, even if they say otherwise. The numbers don’t lie: If 50 percent of marriages end in divorce and 70 percent of divorces are initiated by women, and women have reached parity in committing adultery, then which gender likely has the greater propensity for breaking vows? And why is this? Because we view the import of the vows differently. For men, it is literally a blood oath. I think for many, many women, it is seen as something conditional, a pact made for transactional and utilitarian purposes only. Such a pact is a “living document” in their minds which they can change and amend over time if they need to.

This was my experience. My wife told me on several occasions that I had a black and white, sanctimonious view on marital vows. (By the way, this has been one of the stumbling blocks for any reconciliation and a reason I remain in limbo nearly three years later).

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:42 AM, September 9th (Monday)]

Thumos posted 9/9/2019 07:49 AM

P.S. I think the usual advice on reading the usual books is helpful for YOU. I think it is becoming clear to me, however, that falling into the trap of giving your WW “reading assignments” is really bad advice. She needs to seek out information on her own. If she’s not willing to do that, remorse is simply not there. Get it? If you’re having to give her a stack of books to read, then you’re the fixer here. Don’t be the fixer. NOT YOUR JOB. Your job is to take care of yourself. Full stop.

You: “WW, you figure out why you did this, why you’re so screwed up and how you can prove to me that you are going to be a safe life partner. Prove to me empirically and beyond doubt that you actually have remorse. Until then, I consider us divorced. You divorced me. If you want to have a new marriage with me, show me that all things considered I’d actually pick you as a spouse at this point.”

I actually said this to my WW recently, and it has made all the difference. It’s a completely different way of approaching the matter, and a completely different way of framing it and handling than I have been the past three years.

I recommend it. If her reaction to you saying “you divorced me” is for her to consider you divorced and go out and begin sleeping with yet even more men, then you’ll know you’ve got a narcissistic unremorseful and unstable person on your hands. Easy decision at that point.

Thumos posted 9/9/2019 07:53 AM

If you decide R PLEASE, PLEASE get her into IC

No, no, a thousand times no.

You don’t “get her into” anything. She enrolls herself. Or she doesn’t.

You are the prize. She shows it or does not.

I told my wife recently, “there’s an entire list of nonnegotiables in my head. I’m sick of discussing it. I’ve given the list to you time after time. You either do it or you don’t. You either get with the program or get your ass out of my sight. I’m not in the business of giving you to-do lists anymore. You’re a smart person. Pull your head out of your ass and go figure it out.”

Tough love works.

Thumos posted 9/9/2019 07:56 AM

Also, I just stopped wearing my wedding ring flat out. I told my wife to stop pestering me about it. And I told her I’d put it on again when she proves to me she’s a safe life partner, someone I’d consider marrying if we’d recently met and I knew what I know now. When she shows me beyond a doubt that she is actually as committed to me as I was to her, I’ll consider putting the ring on again. Until then, ring off. All the damn time.

Thumos posted 9/9/2019 08:04 AM

I know some of you are going to think i am a fool

No one here thinks you are a fool. If they do, they themselves are a fool. You have handled this with amazing aplomb.

Many of us are a few years ahead of you, and know what a shitshow this is. We want to prepare you and continue to strengthen you. If there’s any advice we can offer, please ask it.

I mean, look, I’m asking others for advice. I’m three years in and I can only tell you, there are so many aspects of this I wish I’d thought about immediately after D-Day.

I’m in a somewhat similar pickle, though our situations are also different and have different triggering orders of magnitude.

We’re all wishing you the very best.

Thumos posted 9/9/2019 08:15 AM

PLAN B??? really. I always thought the definition of Plan B was when OM rejected WW and she came back to you despite being in "love' with OM because grass was greener. does anyone really believe either of these guys was Plan A.?
You must be reading something different than me.

Plan B has several meanings, depending on the circumstance.

You were most certainly her sexual Plan B and that will start to sink in over time. I’m not a huge red pill fan, and I always stipulate that before mentioning: This has the AF/BB dynamic written all over it. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes adultery is just good old fashioned AF/BB

In an AF/BB binary situation, the husband is clearly and starkly her sexual plan B. You were on the back burner and there when she needed you. And when she needed to satisfy her lustful cravings, the OM’s were there, too. Classic cake-eating.

You were her safe provisioner and comfort zone. The two other OM’s were her hot alphas that gave her the tingles and feelz she wanted and sought out.

That’s why I think I mentioned Proverbs 30:20 at the beginning of this thread and elsewhere. Many WW’s exhibit the pattern shown in Proverbs 30:20 (which is also a clever double entendre - whoever the writer was, they knew exactly what they were talking about).

Your wife has exhibited all of the qualities of the Proverbs 30:20 adulteress. That’s because it was happening 3,000 years ago, too. She may say how sorry she is. From everything you’ve written I only see a coldly calculating Proverbs 30:20 woman who isn’t remorseful about a damn thing.

Odonna posted 9/9/2019 08:38 AM

This is BS and also against SI guidelines against propagating generalizations.

Honor is a more foreign concept for women, particularly WW’s. I’m not saying women don’t understand honor at all, lest I be accused of misogyny. They understand it conceptually, but not in the visceral way men do. There are root differences in gender carried outon the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual planes.

We are all individuals, each capable of the full range of human experience. Keep these sexist remarks to yourself please Thumos.

Sorry for the t/j but I could not let this go unremarked.

steadychevy posted 9/9/2019 08:47 AM

I agree with Thumos. Do not GET HER into IC. Don't get her into anything. Follow the advice given by Thumos. It is up to her.

You: “WW, you figure out why you did this, why you’re so screwed up and how you can prove to me that you are going to be a safe life partner. Prove to me empirically and beyond doubt that you actually have remorse. Until then, I consider us divorced. You divorced me. If you want to have a new marriage with me, show me that all things considered I’d actually pick you as a spouse at this point.”

I verbally gave my WW a list of "nonnegotiables" - things I needed in order to see if R was possible. Nothing happened. I wrote it out and gave a hard copy. Nothing happened. I provided a hard copy again. This took way, way too long. Her lack of effort was telling it just took me too long to figure that out. We're divorcing.

Please don't take this thread off on pages and pages of t/j. Let's keep this directed at BeyondRage and his needs and support.

Thumos posted 9/9/2019 09:00 AM

Didn’t mean to threadjack. I was hoping to give him a template for how he could handle things by giving him my own experience.

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