SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Either your phone on record or VAR. If your state allows you to do this w/o her permission do it. If not warn her that you will record every conversation you have with her.

I never been in this situation before so I don't know. But does anyone else find it odd she called to ask when he wanted to do this because she had a class? If it was my marriage on the line I would be trying to talk as soon as possible, But like I said a have not been in this type of situation. She doesn't sound too worried...

Your WW's A seems to be one with more than the usual amount of advance planning. With the "coach" GF and the multiple APs. Maybe you can punch out one AP. How many do there need to be before you give up?

What bothers me about the journal is that she did this during the A. As if she might need it. That is more insidious.

I'm sure on the dark side of the Internet, there are sites that provide advice on "what to do if you are caught in an A." Those sites would read sites like this, note the techniques recommended here, and tell the WS how best to comply if you need to do damage control.

Providing this journal doesn't mean that she is back in the marriage, truly listening to you. It could just all be damage control. Like a Mob guy that gets pinched. He does his time, is "reformed", then goes right back to the Mob when he gets out. That is not what you want, IMO.

From everything you told us it sounds as if your wife was having sport sex and never intended to leave you. i.e. Alternating two single OM around 30 years old. She immediately begs to stay with you.

Get ready to hear that it was only sex. The basic problem is that you see sex as a big deal and she doesn’t. This will cause you to talk around each other. She understands that she did something wrong but she will not get it on a gut level why you’re so upset. She expects this to blow over with time.

I’ve noticed that people have different priorities, sometimes to the extreme. Some value the relationship to the point that they consider themselves faithful if they never intended to leave the marriage. To them an emotional affair is much worse than a physical one.

In their heart they don’t see the sex act as a big deal. They can be very hard to detect because they don’t feel guilty and act normal during their affair. i.e. they don’t find fault with their spouse to rationalize their affair. They think their spouse is fine and want to grow old with them.

Other people value sexual fidelity. An online emotional affair is relatively easy to recover from for them.

An extreme example of this is SpaceGhost and his WW:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=552588&AP=1&HL

[This message edited by Michigan at 12:59 PM, September 3rd (Tuesday)]

The journal is valuable as it is written by her for her. The timeline will be written by her for you. They will be different in both feelings and facts.

If you have the journal use it as a starting point to dive deeper if you feel the need to.

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 12:58 PM, September 3rd (Tuesday)]

I think Michigan nailed it. I believe you will hear that she never meant to hurt you and it was just sex. I agree that she will not get it at gut level why you are so upset. Keep that in mind as you process what she says. Good idea to walk away when you get angry or enraged. Good luck.

I know there has been some difference of opinion on the journal versus timeline. To me the journal was done in real time when it just happened and my feeling is it will be more accurate . I have read that many WW don’t do the timeline right or honestly the first time anyway. I can always demand that if I want it

You know what you are doing. Take the contemporaneous journal now when it is freely offered. As you have commented, if the journal is not sufficient for your purposes, you can request additional information, including a timeline. I would suggest that no information is to be dismissed off hand until you are sure that you have the whole true story.

I never been in this situation before so I don't know. But does anyone else find it odd

I have been in such situations with multiple different people, typically they are in damage control and self-preservation mode, with some pre-planning and consulting others sometimes as was suggested, but you never know what you will get until the moment is there, some initially go into attack mode and dump you with the blameshifting and all while others show tears or just remain stone-cold or do some stupid negotiation (I love him 5% but you 95%, yeah this really was said to me once), yet it rarely is about the BS and all about the WS and in that arena you try to get what you need and protect your interests, just have to wait and see what monster it is, this is also what makes it difficult to wait for the moment to happen.

Edited: Added a stategy used

[This message edited by babypuke at 1:15 PM, September 3rd (Tuesday)]

Take the journal.

Have her write a timeline.

Compare the two.

Narcissism... It seems to me calling someone a narc is like calling them an asshole. It's not a diagnose persay, but it's an easy way to say what sort of behaviors they typically resort to. NPD would be the diagnosis. If I'm wrong, someone will correct me.

Also I think we all have narcissist tendencies in certain areas. It's more of a spectrum, and there are probably instances where people are a little more narcissistic in one area of their life but not others.

It's not important to diagnose her probably,but learning about the habits often talked about is probably worth being aware of. Though your response shows you already have an intuitively good sense of boundaries and such.

I agree with most here, I don't think she planed on leaving you for either of these clowns. They were just boy toys for her. she obviously also never expected to get caught. She wanted to have her fun until she got board. Either she saw this as not a big deal or something she could talk her way out of. The question is knowing this is the type of person she is, What does your future look like with her????

Something else for you to consider.

Previously, I worked as a Probation Officer with one of my roles having to write sentencing reports, to assist the Judge. I was required to propose a sentence and the reason why.

With serious offending, like an assault,imprisonment was the starting point, and you worked back from there.

Infidelity is the worst infringement that a person can inflict on a marriage, except physical assaults/murder.. And should be treated the same way.

You start with divorce and then work back from there.

Her desire to have uncommitted passionate/uninhibited sex with two people at the same time is a factor. Her fully knowing what your line in the sand would most likely be, but still persued it is another. Her actions after is another. Her likelihood to reoffend another.

She does not sit well in either of these with what I can gather from your dialogue.

Of course you are the person sitting behind the wheel and have more of a fully view of what is in front of you. But don't sweep this under the rug or this one has the real possibility of making you into some one that you never thought possible.

My best thoughts and feelings towards you as you decide moving forward.

Get ready to hear that it was only sex. The basic problem is that you see sex as a big deal and she doesn’t.

As others have attested she will likely say this a thousand times. She may even accuse you, as my wife did, of having an immature attitude toward sex. And then going on to defend that statement repeatedly.

What this may and probably does reveal is a fundamental difference in world views and philosophies of life, of belief in an objective moral order and so on. They see sex as a game, a tool, and a fun pastime, whereas you see sex as a means to a spiritual connection with another. They see sex in purely materialistic terms, as a means to a physical climax, while you see the numinous behind it.

These are not small differences. Bear this in mind.

It is something I have been thinking about a lot lately with respect to my own situation. And if that’s the case, it may reflect truly irreconcilable differences. The Proverbs 30:20 kind of irreconcilable differences. If that’s the case she may need to go her own way into a life of fornication and dissolution, where she will ultimately find a kind of Mr. Goodbar very cold, sterile and empty sunyata — while you take a different path.

Oddly I find this divide regarding casual sex to be more prominent among women, which may or may not account for why BW’s seem to, anecdotally at least, be more prepared to forgive sex than an EA. Some will take offense and I am of course generalizing. But I’ve read too many threads of WW’s spitting out the “meaningless sex” line viciously for it to be coincidence.

I'm sure on the dark side of the Internet, there are sites that provide advice on "what to do if you are caught in an A

Actually just go to reddit’s Adultery community and you will see plenty of discussions about this. It is quite enlightening. They have basically crowdsourced even more details on the execrable cheaters script, so we should thank them. Knowledge is power.

Think of meeting her in a public place like a park. This will help you keep your cool as you say you have a fiery temper. I also agree with you carrying a VAR, even if it's just your cell phone. We here have seen too many false DV charges made on BHs. This will be your saving grace if the police are called and hear the VAR recording.

As you have stated. If you need to walk away from her to gather your thoughts... do it. You have so many emotions, thoughts, and mind movies going right now that you may need time to sort through tbi gs during your discussion with her.

Even after you meet with her, I suggest that she still stay elsewhere for the time being. You are going to need time to digest what she is going to tell you. It's better to let your emotions out without her around. IMO, you want to show her strength and togetherness even thou your dieing inside.

Hope your meeting l with her goes as well as it can.

Thumos,

Yet, if you go to reddit and read what most women say in the adultery sub, it was both. Who really knows? Each case is different, but reddit female adulterers mostly say it was physical but also emotional.

[This message edited by Mene at 3:49 PM, September 3rd (Tuesday)]

She said her last appointment is at 2 not that far from home

She seems quite cool and collected according to what you’re telling us. “Fiddle dee dee, I’d like to come tell you all about my sexual adventures! Let’s see, can I squeeze you into my calendar after 2?” Like I said before, reptilian mindset. Be very wary and do as others have said with your phone or VAR.

I really have no advice for you because you seem to be doing quite well on your own. Sometimes too much advice clouds the thought process on what you really want to accomplish. I will point out some things to consider. Some cheaters never seem to realize what they have and how easily they can lost it. Here is something I have said to other betrayed spouses and maybe you should inform your wife of this. You said you were 6'7" and 260 pounds. You are in excellent shape. You have a very good career earning a substantial income. Your daughters are basically grown and gone. With these traits you can easily replace your wife just as fast, and maybe faster, as she replaced you. She really needs to understand that. In reality she has declared you have an "open marriage". She just failed to tell you therefore cutting you out of the opportunities she enjoyed. I am someone who does not believe there is such a thing as a "revenge affair". Once cheating has occurred in a relationship then the relationship is dead until the participates agree to revive it or to start a new relationship. Therefore, after infidelity, the only thing left of the relationship is a legal piece of paper that can be voided with some papers from the court. You may, or may not be like me. Since I retired, I no longer intentionally set out to hurt or cause damage to anyone. But if someone intentionally hurts or harms me then I'm coming back with dire intentions and lay waste to my antagonist. I had two careers in 45 years, both filled with violence and danger where intentional harm was necessary. What ever you have to do, without physical harm to get over this, is justified. I would also caution you to stay mad. When anger turns to sadness you start losing ground. Ask what questions you want to ask but understand the answers are going to be bad. There is a man on SI named Walloped. Check out the list of questions he asked his wife. Don't ask the question if you really don't want to know the answer. Many, many on SI are going to totally disagree with what I have said. You do what is right for you and only you. I do wish you well.

[This message edited by anoldlion at 4:27 PM, September 3rd (Tuesday)]

Hi. Wow I am impressed by you and the me who have written advice. You all sound very eligible if you want to be. Kind of a weird comment I know. What I’m really saying is you don’t need to put up with this if you don’t want to, by the sounds of it you’re not going to be alone long!

Moving along....

My advice argues what most have said so far. Look at my member number. Sadly I’ve been around a long time so my best piece of advice is DONT listen to me. Lol. But here I go anyway....

Don’t say anything to your children yet. Leave them out. If you work it out you got them involved for nothing. We do a lot to protect our children, let this be just one more time. If you end up divorced then it’s a different story, they will need to hear the reality, let some time go by maybe the marriage will come back together and it will be stronger, more honest and loving then it has before.

A stronger better marriage can come from this. Hard to believe. Why jump into divorce immediately? So many people have recommended this black and white solution. I say you can allows get a divorce. This is not to say don’t prepare...do prepare to slant things in your favor. I would, if you can download a program on her cell phone that supposedly captures everything. It’s a secret to her. She will not know that there is a key logger. From there you can judge if she is being truthful. Most communication comes from a cell phone so it will be very helpful in assisting you in making decisions.

Your marriage can be repaired. Keep in mind the beginning will get really really hateful ugly. My guess is you’ll be lied to a number of times or she’ll be forgetful, can’t talk right now it’s not a good time, it’s not the right day, I’m busy, can we just forget this...oh there’s a whole script out there. You’ll hear it. I bet money.

Be careful your composure. Even my 6’4” husband threatened to call the police ( I hid his cell phone and car keys because I was going to make him listen to my rant immediately after discovery-I threw them in the dryer so he would have a harder time leaving, which btw was the beginning of our R. If I had followed the advice here and done a 180 he would have left, no talking, and filed. For me the pick me dance worked. It’s is/was horrible on my self esteem but nevertheless our marriage seems to be in tact and better.

The reason I wanted details isn’t because I wanted to know what Cirque du Soleil acts they were performing in the bedroom it was to rat out the AP so it was now between the 3 of us. No more little secrets between them. He was betraying her! Btw ummm this took some time and a few try’s, ok a lot of tries to get the correct stories.

Brace yourself, cheaters who are only toying with having fun (not searching for the next husband or wife) affair down down down. I wish we found out up comparison charts. It’s ridiculous when you put the BS side-by-side with the AP.

Hang in there. If you start down the road of R let us know how you’re doing. There’s what some term as hysterical bonding which is really intense and for me was an upside to infidelity. Good luck and hopefully you’ll start down the path of honestly.

Oddly I find this divide regarding casual sex to be more prominent among women, which may or may not account for why BW’s seem to, anecdotally at least, be more prepared to forgive sex than an EA. Some will take offense and I am of course generalizing. But I’ve read too many threads of WW’s spitting out the “meaningless sex” line viciously for it to be coincidence.

At the risk of a slight T/J, my observation from following many threads here on SI is that there is a distinct gender divide on this issue, but the divide is more stark when one separates WW into their own class.

Cheaters try to minimize the extent of their cheating. That is a truism that applies over and over.

Cheating women seem to think that a good way to minimize is to tell their BH "it was just sex, it didn't mean anything", or some version of that. What women fail to realize is that this message is MORE painful to men, in most cases, than "I thought I was in love."

I am curious to know how much cheating was done by her Dad or her Mom.

I sense affairs in her FOO.