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Caught Her By Accident

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Thumos posted 9/23/2019 22:57 PM

My assessment is what I posted, just like any criminal
i had the opportunity
It was fun
I never thought I would get caught.
And I was able to totally compartmentalize it.

Yep. My WW has admitted this. It’s ugly, ugly, ugly. Says a lot about the person. As a Christian, I believe we are all fallen. “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” So no one may boast. Yet it’s also true that we can discern that some sins are clearly worse than others. As Billy Graham noted, ‘Stealing a loaf of bread is vastly different than exterminating a million people. Sins may also differ at their root.”

We can and should judge sin according to both its effects and motivations. Even if you’re not a Christian you can just look at this as “harmful actions” and discern that some harmful actions are worse than others. If I was intentionally late for an appointment or just plain careless, it’s clearly a lesser “harmful action” than Crazymaking and dropping a radioactive dirty bomb in the middle of a normal functioning marriage and families.

I’m only bringing this up because I can’t myself leave it at that my WW was selfish and wanted to enjoy exciting illicit sex on the side with a forbidden relationship, and never thought she would be caught. It goes deeper than that for me. Much deeper.

Butforthegrace posted 9/24/2019 05:25 AM

The "whys" thing is very perplexing and confusing to me. I think just about any of them can be construed and changed to bull shit in that there are thousands with the same whys who do not do it. And if some shrink tells me the why does that make him right and make me feel better??? And if I tell the same story to five or ten shrinks i may get five or ten different answers.

I wonder if you are speaking euphemistically there, or literally? In other words, why would you -- BR -- be discussing this with a counselor? This is 100% on your WW, and whether she does it with a counselor, or otherwise, it needs to be done. It's the only path to becoming a safe partner.

Right now, she is the kind of woman who will sleep around with other men. So far in this thread, the only thing we've heard about this issue is her promise to you that she won't do it again, coupled with a ridiculously extreme structure on her first road trip.

The promise is meaningless without first fixing what is wrong with her. She made the promise once already and broke it, knowingly and willingly and with more than one man. Making the same promise, from the same perspective, that's nothing more than white knuckling and denying the desire that she actually has for extracurricular sex.

Road trips structured like the one she just took, no functioning marriage should work like that.

Phrasing it another way, there is, in my mind at least, an open question whether your WW actually wants a committed monogamous relationship. Her actions suggest she does not. It's worth having the frank and honest discussion with her about this now, before you invest years into a frustrating and difficult R only to learn that your end goal and her end goal are not the same.

As to Perel, she explains infidelity with a lot of insight and clarity. But explaining a thing is not excusing a thing. This is my issue with Perel. Her explanations are done in a way that seeks to normalize infidelity, and, by implication, contradict those who believe infidelity is wrong. She does it with her Eurotrash accent to make it sound all sophisticated, and she speaks from a lens of personal experience, having failed multiple times to keep a marriage intact.


[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:37 AM, September 24th (Tuesday)]

steadychevy posted 9/24/2019 07:06 AM

Opportunity.
Looked like fun/exciting.
Thought would never get caught.
Compartmentalize.
Bingo.

Truth. Same with my WW.

The issue for me is what is it about her character/ belief system that permitted her to do this. My wife did it for 4 years. She was never getting caught.

If those things aren't determined what is the barrier to doing it again when the heat is off. The next time there is opportunity. Does white knuckling do it? I'm not willing to put my faith in that.

There's a difference between a dry drunk and a recovering alcoholic, in my mind. The recovering alcoholic is actively doing something to combat his/her addiction. Even then some fall off the wagon.

BeyondRage, I'm sure you had opportunity. I'm sure there it looked fun and exciting and you probably would never get found out. But you didn't. Why? Your WW needs to find out why she would. Just saying she would never do it again isn't much of an assurance.

I wrote before that I have no respect for Perel. I think she can cause great harm. I have even less respect from Harley. I know he can cause great harm because he's who I found first when I was suspicious and following his lead caused me great harm and years of pain and trauma.


LemonCurd posted 9/24/2019 09:32 AM

Checked the VAR. Nothing of interest other than chat with girlfriends in our social circle and her Mom and one of our daughters. Any suggestions if i should pull it???

Me again so much for me not posting lol

I would wait until after the polygraph to pull it, the impending polygraph when you tell her one is coming might shake a few coconuts loose in the tree as it were due to stress. I am sure she will pass but either way she will be worried and might sperg out to her mom or friends.

As for where to put them, anywhere she speaks when you arent around. Bedroom, bathroom maybe ?? Probably unnecessary though your wife isn't breaking NC and clearly you are out of infidelity like you said.

I would also tell her you would like a repeat polygraph in a couple of years to confirm loyalty during the R (assuming you are still together) and I would also ask her if she would like me to take a polygraph incase she has any doubts she will refuse but it would be interesting to gauge her reaction.

She has cut her toxic friendships off. Her family are on your side. She has exposed you to everything even her journal ... not sure what more you need other than to know this was the first time she went stupid.

I read the Walloped threads referenced last night, fuck me that was harrowing. I see he wrote a very long list of questions for his wife to answer and they slowly went through them, I think this is a great idea for any BS and it is something I will be scribbling out for my own use. 50 questions covering past, present and future

You have all your bases covered anyway mate, could have been much worse.

DoinBettr posted 9/24/2019 10:06 AM

My assessment is what I posted, just like any criminal
I had the opportunity
It was fun
I never thought I would get caught.
And I was able to totally compartmentalize it.

I think this could happen again due to something you aren't facing and I don't think you will receive it well.
Opportunity has always been there.
Not getting caught has always been there too. Work trips out of town happened all the time.
Your wife is awesome at compartmentalizing. So that isn't new.
So the main question "FUN". Why does she think she can't have the same, if not more fun with you?
Why did she need these guys sniffing up her tail pipe to feel that "FUN".
She liked to feel pretty. What about your actions don't make her feel pretty?
She liked to be in control. Why doesn't she feel in control with you sometimes?
Wanted to try something different or new. Why wouldn't she start that with you?
She needs to get to that feeling. Usually it is feeling trapped or scared and the affair is to feel free with this kind.
So, that is what the "Why's" are more about. Why she didn't invite you to a race to bang it out in the hotel room when these guys came sniffing around.
What made this different?
You need that so you can put in the boundary inside of her to shut that down in the future and make her a safe partner. Currently, what is going to stop her from doing this again once your guard comes down? That is why everyone screams consequences. They really mean, boundaries. It is what the book, "Not Just Friends" outlines.
Give it a whirl.

BeyondRage posted 9/25/2019 08:22 AM

But For The Grace

Your responses are usually well thought out and I respect them, but you seem to be fixated on the open marriage thing. All I can tell you I have asked her at least six times if she wants that and the answer is no. Now for your own reasons you are convinced that is where this is headed. If that happens it will be with the next husband.

I agree, this little trip last week she OVER did it, and I have told her if i need her to do that we will never get beyond this. Remember, she interacts with doctors (most men) all day long who would have been in my opinion much more "eligible" affair material .
Had i not mentioned her girlfriend was in an open marriage i tryuly wonder if there would be this constant decisions that that is what she wants.

i do not intend on going to MC for me to be interrogated. I understand I did nothing wrong. Give me some credit. There are numerous threads on here where IC did more harm than good, where WW did not tell the correct story, and then gets shitty advice. As a matter of fact there is a pretty sensible poster in Wayward who stated that her therapist told her to do the EXACT opposite of what SI folks state over and over, namely tell the entire truth.

So far in this thread, the only thing we've heard about this issue is her promise to you that she won't do it again,

Maybe YOU can tell me what she should be doing that she is not other than running to IC. So far she has
(1) not withheld any information. No TT uncovered so far
(2) turned over journal
(3) turned over without deletions e mails and phones. I even have her work phone passwords which may be a violation of her company policy
(4) cancelled all races
(5) turned down girls week end
(6) offered on her own to take polygraph.
And somehow you get she has done nothing out of that. ???????
You want to point me to a thread where in this same amount of time there is a role model. And please do not use Mrs. Walloped because until she found out her boyfriend was actually lying to her ass she was breaking NC immediately upon arriving to her sisters house or whichever relative it was.

Do In
I think this could happen again due to something you aren't facing and I don't think you will receive it well.
Opportunity has always been there.
Not getting caught has always been there too. Work trips out of town happened all the time.
Your wife is awesome at compartmentalizing. So that isn't new.
So the main question "FUN". Why does she think she can't have the same, if not more fun with you?
Why did she need these guys sniffing up her tail pipe to feel that "FUN".
She liked to feel pretty. What about your actions don't make her feel pretty?
She liked to be in control. Why doesn't she feel in control with you sometimes?
Wanted to try something different or new. Why wouldn't she start that with you?
She needs to get to that feeling. Usually it is feeling trapped or scared and the affair is to feel free with this kind.
So, that is what the "Why's" are more about. Why she didn't invite you to a race to bang it out in the hotel room when these guys came sniffing around.
What made this different?

Actually I will receive this well and try to answer.
I used the word FUN . I posted that after i read Space Ghosts thread and in a conversation with her boss that he had on VAR or girlfriend, she commented " this is not fun anymore"

once she figured Space Ghost might be on to her.

My wife said it was different and exciting. Not too unusual for cheating sex. If she had said it sucked, anyone here would have believed that? Not me. Especially from a woman with a high libido who gets off very easily. I wonder though, how many cheating wives or husbands would not say it was fun.
And she did ask me to go to a race or two. I was BUSY. And she mentioned it in her journal. And no that is not an excuse and she did not say that

I keep hearing the term GUARANTEE she won't do it again. There is no one here that did not think they had a guarantee the first time.

Some therapist giving me his or her opinion DOES NOT guarantee a damm thing. there is ample evidence here on this site to prove that.

In my opinion, when something like this happens, you have to make a couple of clear choices, and one of them is knowing there are no guarantees, do you want to D or R. At present, I do not know and after she does the polygraph I may know more.

I wonder how I could be GUARANTEED if i divorce my wife, and start to date another divorced woman. Hpw do i GUARANTEE she did not cheat on her husband and that she would tell me if she did.?? Give her a polygraph???

My eyes are wide open. Believe me. If you think i am an idiot, so be it. You are entitled to that. No hard feelings

The1stWife posted 9/25/2019 10:10 AM

Beyond. I think you are handling things well.

On paper everyone here at SI would have told me to D my H. Second Affair. No remorse. He wanted a D throughout the Affair.

But this time I saw something different. True remorse after DDay 2. And he has spent the last 6 years making amends. He has changed.

Are there guarantees? No. But you appear to be on a good path. I cannot think of anything your wife should be doing that she’s not already doing.

I wish you much success in Reconciliation. I hope it works out.

Buster123 posted 9/25/2019 12:46 PM

Have you scheduled the polygraph yet ? I think it's better to get that one done sooner rather than later, at least you won't be wondering whether she is going to pass it or not, heck you may even do more than one poly with different questions if need be (unlikely).

she put your health and the stability of the family at risk, If you don't want to expose her to family/stakeholders (they were betrayed too) for her huge betrayal that of course is up to you, but would you at least ask her if she would be willing to do so in person ? or do you think she will refuse to do it, I think that would be another good indicator of her level of remorse.

Butforthegrace posted 9/25/2019 13:13 PM

Sorry, double post.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:19 PM, September 25th (Wednesday)]

Butforthegrace posted 9/25/2019 13:13 PM

Your responses are usually well thought out and I respect them, but you seem to be fixated on the open marriage thing. All I can tell you I have asked her at least six times if she wants that and the answer is no.

People can and often do choose to remain married after a spouse cheats without actually reconciling. However, in order to successfully R, one element generally agreed that should exist is the WW making herself into a safe spouse. A person who is not the kind of person who might choose to cheat. A person you can trust.

For that to happen, she has to figure out why she cheated, and fix that. In the majority of cheating wife threads, we find that the wife had reached a negative emotional place, some admixture of sadness or depression or feeling of worthlessness or some such. The A typically involved a man who plied her with saccharine flattery and praise, made her feel good when she had been feeling bad.

In most threads, in other words, figuring out the whys and becoming safe isnt the hard part of R. The conditions giving rise to the A were temporary and/or situational. The hard part usually is healing the trauma felt by the BH, and restoring in his heart a belief that she desires him.

Your thread is a puzzle because you've not posted anything suggesting your WW engaged in her A for anything that resembles the "classic" reason. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that she simply wanted some occasional extracurricular sex, so she went for it. The reason I keep coming back to open marriage is that, based on the information we have, there is no other logical conclusion.

Assuming that conclusion, then what can she do to make herself safe? What can she change about the fundamental core of her? You know that, in her current state, she is the kind of person who will make a solemn promise not to have sex with other men, but then secretly break that promise and have sex with other men, solely because she feels like it.

Without in some way changing her fundamental core of herself, why on earth would you trust the exact same promise from the exact same person? "I really mean it this time." "So you didnt really mean it in our wedding? Did you have your fingers crossed behind your back?"

As another poster stated, right now she's a dry drunk. You cant be safe unless she is a successfully recovering alcoholic.

The weekend away is an example. She's white knuckling it, and asking you to be a marriage cop so she wont give in to temptation. That's no way to sustain a marriage.

If she wants to stay married, of course she will say that an open marriage is not something she wants. If we have learned any lesson here on SI, it is that when a wayward's actions say one thing, but her words say another, trust the actions.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:18 PM, September 25th (Wednesday)]

Butforthegrace posted 9/25/2019 13:14 PM

Sorry for the double post. I'm in an area of poor reception and clicked twice.

BeyondRage posted 9/25/2019 14:15 PM

But For The Grace
Ok. I accept you have concluded she wants an open marriage.
I respectfully disagree.
There was no week end away . It was one week night on business .

The polygraph will be done in less than three weeks after our visits are over. She does not know that.
And yes to the question or suggestion there may be more than one
And yes she will be given a fair opportunity to confess if there is more . And no I am not going to drag her out of bed at 7am and throw her into the car
And no I’m not buying any theories that she’s researching how to beat a polygraph

The VAR continues to show absolutely nothing other than chit chat with friends who have no part in this . All female except her father and brother

And yes I have searched for a burner phone .

We are discussing a plan to do more things together . And we have had sex . Not mind boggling or what you would consider HB but it’s a start

Trdd posted 9/25/2019 15:14 PM

I think the issue in these recent posts seems to be, does BR's WW need (additional) in depth self examination to be able to not have another affair?

To be fair, no one can truly answer that. However, the data would suggest that in depth self examination is something that is helpful when the WS has remorse and the intent to become safe. BR, I think you understand that from your reading here. So it leads to another few questions: Has she done enough reflection on her own and through reading affair related books to become safe? And would pursuing IC be a significant help beyond what she has done?

I think the actions taken so far to set up boundaries and remove the source of her affair scenarios (racing trips) are great. It will go a long way to making her a safe partner. But temptation will lurk in many places for an attractive woman. It doesn't just lurk, men actively pursue an attractive woman. This brings us back to the question, has she done enough self reflection to understand the source of her temptation which would assist her in keeping boundaries intact in any setting, with any set of people present?

She might have. Seeing BR's pain, giving up all the things she hid immediately upon discovery, hopefully reading a few books (has she BR?) and willingly giving up activities all seems like she is making progress. You really seem to be on the right path BR. Yet I also think you should consider IC. It is like securing your valuables in your house. You put exterior lights on at night, you lock the windows and doors and you tuck the valuables out of sight. But if you knew they might be in danger of theft, wouldn't you also put them in a safe if you could? Or you would buy insurance for them, wouldn't you?

There are a lot of people who have poor to medium results with IC. But there are also a lot that have good results. Your WW might find a few nuggets that help her connect certain things inside her to her temptation. Triggers that she can identify early and avoid. It also might help her understand how to help you heal from this too. That all sounds pretty good, doesn't it? Well, I know you have voiced some concerns about counselors. Perhaps you could sort through your concerns about it here, find good selection criteria, agree to that with WW and give it a try. Maybe all that comes after the Poly?

I don't buy that "she wants an open marriage" angle here. And I also think you have taken a lot of concrete steps that will support your R if you decide to continue that route after the Poly. None of us can say for certain that the very good steps you and your WW are taking would not be enough to make her a safe partner again. But I think a well sourced IC could be that insurance policy and if I was you, I would give it some additional consideration.

Jduff posted 9/25/2019 16:38 PM

BeyondRage, I've been struggling to find a thread that your story really reminds me about but just can't find it. Maybe this will jog someone else's memory.

There is a member here who's wife was an executive or upper management of a company and she had a couple of flings with subordinates at her work place. The BS was an alpha personality and had the same questions you did about why she did this when both were successful in their careers and had everything they wanted in their careers and in each other. What came out of it was that his WW worked with other younger females who were trying to attract these same guys in the work place and his WW saw it as competition and validation that she still had sexual power despite her age. She wanted to establish dominance of some kind, letting the younger women know that she "still had it" and also wanted to rub their noses in her conquests.

I think they reconciled. It was where that story left off.

Anyway, I hate putting that out there without a thread as reference but your WW's A and the circumstances around it sounds a bit familiar. Just another possible way to look at it I guess. You said your WW has high libido so maybe being pursued by the men at these races really stroked the "power of attraction" ego within her and it got way out of control.

Striver posted 9/25/2019 18:27 PM

I am not big on libido as cause of A. It is effectively a non issue. Plenty of low libido people cheat. If WW is being truthful, there were 7 encounters. Apparently she turned some down. There are As with high sex count, this did not appear to be one. Not excusing, just explaining.

BR, I do think you need to understand your WW's whys on a deeper level if you are going to reconcile. IC, anything is not a magic bullet or fix. But you are looking for connection. Talking all of that through with WW is a way to get deeper connection as well as heal. Your WW has her reasons for what she did. Beyond just stupidity and didn't think I would get caught. Those reasons are part of the picture, but they don't complete the picture. Plenty of people with those reasons don't cheat. Yours did. I think it would help you to find out why. Your choice.

steadychevy posted 9/25/2019 18:37 PM

I remember it Jduff but can't remember the username.

BeyondRage posted 9/25/2019 19:25 PM

Trdd
I’d like to expand your point about no more races even local ones . First I’m not accepting the time apart training and second I know what’s going to happen if I happen to run into to one of these jokers. I do know what they look like from a group picture of the “pack” . There were a few other women in the picture too but they seemed to for whatever reason drop by the wayside. My wife told me she actually would refuse to attend a race or run in one because she knows me and what could happen
The therapy thing , whatever form it takes , can wait until after the polygraph. Right now I need to focus on the questions again , finding and interviewing an examiner, and developing a specific plan for either result

JDuff
Lol. She’s not an executive . Too bad . I could use the help of the additional money for four weddings in my future. I actually have told her that one of the consequences that she might have is that if she is offered a promotion with more travel that usually comes with it that that was out of the question now and
into the foreseeable future. Got no argument. In fact if they get an opening with no travel she said she will apply to transfer to that territory Las a lateral move even though it would in essence mean developing relationships with all new medical offices and hospitals staffs
You guys might be right. She might need someone to talk to other than me or getting chastised by her parents
One other thing that came up is she wanted to change her cell number. Any thoughts on if this is a good idea. It would certainly make sense if one or both of these guys were trying to reach her but my guess is they both know through the girlfriends boy toy that she’s “off the market”
I’m still in between on that one but she suggested it if it would make me feel better

faithfulman posted 9/25/2019 19:31 PM

Don't change her phone number. Give her a new phone and phone number, everything under your control and all information an open book to you.

Keep her old phone and phone number active active and under your sole control and possession just in case some new straggling information hits that phone number.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 7:32 PM, September 25th (Wednesday)]

steadychevy posted 9/25/2019 19:37 PM

My opinion, for what it's worth, BeyondRage, is to not change the phone number. It would build more trust if there was an attempt to contact and she disclosed to you immediately. You would need some way of checking that she is disclosing any attempts. I know others on SI have found ways for that info to be transferred to one of your devices. That technology is beyond me, though.

I say for what it's worth, BeyondRage, because that wasn't even an option for me. They had no electronic communication at all except through work channels in my case.

ETA: 3 weddings. Daughters all in 30s and 9 grandchildren. Weddings were wonderful although two were before DDay1.

[This message edited by steadychevy at 7:39 PM, September 25th (Wednesday)]

BeyondRage posted 9/25/2019 19:38 PM


Default Posted: 8:31 PM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2019 View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage
Don't change her phone number. Give her a new phone and phone number, everything under your control and all information an open book to you.
Keep her old phone and phone number active active and under your sole control and possession just in case some new straggling information hits that phone number.

Faithfulman

Great idea!!! Thank you

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