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Caught Her By Accident

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waitedwaytoolong posted 10/6/2019 13:50 PM

I think they never really had the intent to do it until it started. Many WS do not go out looking for an A. A series of small steps happen and these steps are like the temperature rising in a pot of water when cooking a lobster. This does not excuse the poor boundaries nor the small decisions to keep moving forward. Not at all. But if you are considering R I think it makes a difference to understand that the small steps made the WS more comfortable and they also lured the WS in at the same time

I think this is dead on. If my EX’s AP was the best looking guy in the world and said to her early on he wanted to sleep with her, she would have laughed in his face. But he didn’t. He started by telling her how amazing her eye was for design, and how smart she was. He then opened the possibility that they could work together and she could be a partner in business. For a SAHM whose kids had just left and had self doubts about her worth, this was catnip. Wasn’t long before coffee turned to wine to sex. But the sex never would have happened without all the little steps toward it.

I’m not sure this is the case for BR, but the mindset could have been. But the premise is sound

steadychevy posted 10/6/2019 16:12 PM

I think there is a balance sheet approach. Maybe more like an income statement with revenue and costs. Either way there is calculation.

It can start as a small step on a slippery slope. Common thought here about the slippery slope. Ever been close to a slippery slope? Most of us probably have been. Only some take the next step to the thrilling ride.

I think there was thought when taking that step. How not to get discovered. Thinking they never will get discovered. Weighing the risk of being discovered against the expected thrill. Once on the ride easy to make the next decision.

It seems most cheaters are quite careful about hiding what they are doing. This is done to keep the liability side of the balance sheet or the cost portion of the income statement negligible.

When considering the liability side or the cost portion it isn't about what the effect will have on the betrayed spouse but what the consequences will be for them. Pros/cons, cost/benefit - the analysis is done in most cases. The exception might be the ONS. Where the adultery develops over time the analysis is done, IMO.

It seems a lot of the WS wouldn't want the BS to cheat on them and they knew that long before the made the move. They understood the effect on them would be very negative.

BeyondRage posted 10/6/2019 17:25 PM

TRDD

All of this sounds true. And yet, it is also a limited description in several ways. And, for me at least, I think it over-simplifies the WS experiences a bit...which, in some situations, might not be helpful for those BS who are contemplating R.

Now there an understatement. This implication that she wanted to do this for years, plotted it all out, forged the journal, sought out a partner practicing non monogamy, and all the other bull shit. Not really helpful at all nor is anything but an opinion, which are like you know what. We all have one. Thank you for recognizing that.
 Many WS do not go out looking for an A. A series of small steps happen and these steps are like the temperature rising in a pot of water when cooking a lobster. This does not excuse the poor boundaries nor the small decisions to keep moving forward. Not at all.
But if you are considering R I think it makes a difference to understand that the small steps made the WS more comfortable and they also lured the WS in at the same time. The fantasy was built and gained momentum, like an amusement park ride she got on, for a moment thought about getting off but somehow was caught up in the thrill. Again, no excuse. Still a series of terrible decisions were made. But the reality is that the fantasy took over from the logical reality for many WS. They no longer were assessing the risks logically. 
Exactly, Id bet my ass the percentage of women who are looking to have an affair is in the single digits. Probably for men too.
My intent is not to be an apologist for WS. But the reality of their failures is more complex than the logical assessment of their decisions. 

Unfortunately, if you do not advocate the immediate blowing up the world of EVERYONE ( family, children, social circle, work, and on and on) you are classified as an apologist by some here. As great as this website is, the one negative is when in threads that go for a while, the motive sometimes goes from help and support to who can be RIGHT and responders wind up just arguinig with one another. I guess thats where letting it go in one ear and out the other comes in. Recommending courses of action are helpful even if the BS does not agree, but when these start to move to absolute predictions and beating BS into agreeing it becomes detrimental. Of course, if I go to JFO right now and look at all the BH stories, my guess is I would be reacting differently right now. I stated I do not consider ALL infidelity exactly the same. It all sucks and it is wrong but a guy who robs a candy store one time is not the same as a murderer.

WAITED WAY TOO LONG
I think this is dead on. If my EX’s AP was the best looking guy in the world and said to her early on he wanted to sleep with her, she would have laughed in his face. But he didn’t. He started by telling her how amazing her eye was for design, and how smart she was. He then opened the possibility that they could work together and she could be a partner in business. For a SAHM whose kids had just left and had self doubts about her worth, this was catnip. Wasn’t long before coffee turned to wine to sex. But the sex never would have happened without all the little steps toward it.
This is spot on. She did not start doing anything for months and even after the disclosure by girlfriend as to lifestyle got her arousal up, still did not act immediately until; they wound up in hot tub together. Fucked up decision, YES . Planned from the start, BULLSHIT. And I have e mails that are clear on all of this on how this progressed sent between wife and girlfriend . So lets give me credit for being able to read and comprehend even though I was just a “C” student.
I read your posts and you were amazing in trying to work through it for so long. If she had done what your wife did we would not be discussing any of this. Again, those that put it all in one box will be perplexed and annoyed by this.

And let me address the condom thing. If she had not brought condoms then she would have been blasted for that. The fact is, she brought the party pack every time she left the house once it started, even when she did not have sex with them. They used to laugh ( girlfriend and her) in e mails about my wife being “prepared” for nothing most of the time and girlfriend asking is she going to use the battery powered one or the one attached to two legs

Enough of my vent. I am sorry. I am more pissed off tonight than I have been in a while. Spent the last two week ends doing what should have been joyous, and tomorrow I am going to tell her she is taking a polygraph test. Its almost surreal.
I have to give her notice so that she can take the day off and not get in trouble from work, and no I do not believe she will spend the rest of the week googling how to beat it. If you believe that save your time telling me.

All I could say to her before she left for hospice volunteer thing was “I can't believe you put this all in jeopardy for some strange cock”. I got head down and tears and “I'm sorry, and I deserve whatever you say or do”

The VAR continues to show nothing of any importance to what is going on here. A lot of chatter to her mom about the girls. I am glad her parents have complied and are not bombarding me with calls.

Despite it all I screwed her brains out last night and have had no problem doing that. I guess that's good. Sorry for TMI

ramius posted 10/6/2019 17:48 PM

I hope the poly gives you conclusive results. Then you can assess what you want to do going forward.

Buster123 posted 10/6/2019 18:26 PM

Yes, all active decisions. But not quite in the same way as researching to buy a house in a high risk area. None of this excuses the decisions. But there are more forces at play in these decisions than a logical analysis. And that, for me, is some explanation and some help to understand how a WS could do what they do.

Active and "conscious" decisions indeed, and btw I've never compared infidelity with buying a house or anything similar or even think that she's been planning this for a long time, what I've said is that in this case she made a very conscious decision to cheat (multiple times and with different OMs) and betray regardless of how much she thought it would hurt OP, of course she had to know it would hurt him a lot if discovered, but even if she wasn't caught she would still be risking OP's health and betraying him, she KNEW she was cheating yet continued lying (at least by omission) and betraying OP over and over and even picked a second OM simply because she could do it, wanted to do it and went for it, she in this case was not even influenced by limerance or some strange "force" (btw based on her actions she was possibly on the path to becoming a serial cheater if not caught), the fact is she lacked the integrity and moral fortitude to remain loyal (like all cheaters), millions of people don't cheat and betray their spouses/significant others regardless of age, gender, circumstances, "mid life crisis", "perfect storms", etc., at the end of the day they cheat because at that point in time they want to do it and some keep doing it multiple times like in this case, she even put her betrayals on her journal, it doesn't get much more "conscious" than that. That doesn't mean she can't become a safe partner for OP eventually if he gives her that chance.

I respect your opinion but wholeheartedly disagree, just my opinion, I'm sorry I call it as I see it and believe me I wish the best to OP and his ww and like I said before I hope she passes the poly with flying colors.

steadychevy posted 10/6/2019 19:23 PM

I certainly agree to the poly, BR. I had my WW do one. My WW knew weeks in advance and I don't think she did any preparation. Actually I had my WW book it with the examiner I chose.

I think polies serve a useful purpose. However, I think they are only one of the tools in the toolbox. I'm not even sure what I would have done had she failed one of the questions. I think it would have been an opening to get more information. Perhaps it would have been enough to end it for me. I don't know. She passed with flying colours.

I guess I'm saying that the poly may not be the definitive answer but merely provide more evidence/answers on a decision making continuum. I hope she passes all of the important questions (maximum of 4) you have. If she doesn't pass all doesn't mean the end, IMO. It could be the opening to get full disclosure.

GreatWideOpen posted 10/6/2019 20:47 PM

BR said

"She DID NOT do it with one of these guys every time she ran in a race and sometimes she came right home. A few times she was out of town on normal business it happened. most of the time no. She had many more opportunities. She called the shots, and she never even went to either of their residences."

This, to me, is a revelation. Makes is appear like more than NSA sex. Did she plan directly with the AP for the work trip liaisons? Do you have access to that correspondence? Were there dates, dinner and dancing, wining and dining, or just meet me at the hotel room at the appointed hour?
Careful planning with the outcome assured.

[This message edited by GreatWideOpen at 8:49 PM, October 6th (Sunday)]

HouseOfPlane posted 10/6/2019 21:23 PM

As great as this website is, the one negative is when in threads that go for a while, the motive sometimes goes from help and support to who can be RIGHT and responders wind up just arguinig with one another.
People get emotionally invested in the outcome. It can be hard to keep that distance and let the original poster fight their fight.

Looking good, BR. A bunch of stuff going on is just going to take to see if things work out. It will especially take time to see how this ultimately settles with you. Don't box yourself in.

Sending strength!

Striver posted 10/6/2019 22:17 PM

BR,

As long as you are going forward with WW, I have thought about what would be needed to make her a safe partner.

1) You mentioned that she only cheated on selected trips. You mentioned that it wasn't working to do so many things separate. I think that the separate out of town activities need to be curtailed. In favor of more local stuff not requiring an overnight, or things that both of you will do. That includes the running circuit. On the table to have racing curtailed or eliminated. Not even as punishment, but in recognition of the seriousness of the situation. Allowing too much status quo to recur isn't a good habit to get into for either of you.

2) The journaling. You mentioned that anything significant in there you need to know about. Stick to it. Journaling is no longer a refuge. I think it created too much of a separate persona, too much of a safe space for her. Can't continue as status quo.

3) Toxic friends. This seems to be a particular issue for WW. Not all women, and not all wayward women. But it's definitely a thing that some women can be more easily influenced into bad behavior by being in the presence of a influencing friend. Your WW admired the open marriage friend, which sent her down the path.

The open marriage friend at some point needs to be entirely eliminated from WW's life, even past businesslike contact. Long term job change if necessary. But keep in mind this is NOT a perfect storm situation. These type of women are out there. Maybe not open marriage women, but maybe disgruntled divorcees who want to carp about men. Your WW has shown vulnerability to being influenced, so you and her are going to have to talk about this regularly.

Good luck with all of this. You can do this through IC or another method. IC is maybe good to emphasize and punctuate that permanent changes are going to take place. But it needs to be done somehow.

steadychevy posted 10/7/2019 08:30 AM

Despite it all I screwed her brains out last night and have had no problem doing that. I guess that's good.

Hysterical bonding. Maybe. Pretty common. Enjoy.

3) Toxic friends. This seems to be a particular issue for WW. Not all women, and not all wayward women. But it's definitely a thing that some women can be more easily influenced into bad behavior by being in the presence of a influencing friend. Your WW admired the open marriage friend, which sent her down the path.

My WW had coffee, lunches and drinks after work with a woman who reported to her. This woman was very unhappy about her marriage, husband and basement dwelling son. My WW said she never badmouthed me or our marriage.

I phoned the woman after DDay, 10 years later when I found out. She said she knew nothing about the adultery even though she was the "chaperone" while WW and AP went for drinks after work. Chaperone always left before them so they had private time. But she knew nothing. She did say my WW was very unhappy at the time. About what given that WW says she never badmouthed me or the marriage.

Did all that influence my WW. I don't know and never will know. This woman condescendingly hoped I would be able to get rid of the anger. I had been very nice and low key on the phone because I wanted information from her and didn't want her to hang up. She always thought she was an intellect but she wasn't and isn't.

It's possible that influenced my WW. However, I've been out with the "guys" at different functions and listened to their bad mouthing their marriages and wives and lack of sex, etc. I've been out with guys who brag about their escapades. I've been out with the guys who relate about others who are their heroes because of their escapades. I didn't get many invites to join them because I wasn't a cheerleader.

I'm betting many of the BHs here and BWs here in their woman circles have had similar experiences. So if they didn't use it as justification to cheat, why is that? Why did the WSs?

Why did this minority use something as justification and the majority didn't? That is why the digging needs to be deep with the WS. It isn't something surface. I guess I'm saying that in the context of reconciliation. In order for the R to be long term successful. This doesn't happen in a month or a year, IMO. It takes a long time with a lot of hard work, effort and dedication.

The question for the BS is it worth it? That is for them to decide. We can all have our biases. I certainly do. It's the BS's decision. But a decision that shouldn't be made too soon. Time. Observe. Evaluate.

DownFallofEden posted 10/7/2019 10:47 AM

Hang in there my friend. It appears you're handling things the right way. This is exactly why I get uncomfortable when a girlfriend gives me the "he's just a friend line". They can use it as an excuse to absolve themselves when they end up sleeping with their "friend" so they can say.."it just happened". I have learned that I can never go off of what a woman says to me, but to only go off her actions which will eventually connect the dots leading to the truth.

LemonCurd posted 10/7/2019 11:49 AM

How did she take the poly news BR? Happy to take the step? Relieved you finally dropped it on her? Confused as to why you want her to have it?

Hang in there chap, must have been a very weird day for you ....

Despite it all I screwed her brains out last night and have had no problem doing that. I guess that's good.

Sure beats the alternative. Definitely one for parking in the good column.

BeyondRage posted 10/7/2019 18:20 PM

Lemon Curd

Ok . Let start with this. I came home a little early since I knew she would be there. She knew the minute I walked in something was up. I was quiet, probably out of sadness.

I told her I needed to take her up on her offer to take a polygraph because I need to know for sure exactly what I was going to attempt to reconcile with. I told her I have to be able to believe all I have seen and read, and I also told her that based on this latest experience I need to know that it has not happened before, especially years ago when she was doing a lot of GNO partying. First time I actually in front of her I had tears in my eyes. I mean its kind of mind blowing that 25 years may be wrapped up in an electronic test.

Now remember, she does not know there is a VAR in her car, so she does not know that I know she has not been talking to either of these guys or any other guys or having any conversations that are not appropriate. I told her that if there was anything that I did not know or that she wanted to tell me that now was the time to do it ( advice I got from SI).

She started to cry profusely and then told me that she was so glad I was going to give her the opportunity to prove to me that she is not lying about anything and that she understands that even if she passes it only means she has a chance to try to repair our marriage and relationship. She offered to do this from the beginning and said she was worried I would not take her up on the offer.

She never even asked me what happens if she fails and never said she is worried about being nervous or anything like that causing her to fail. So I guess we will see.

GREAT WIDE OPEN

This, to me, is a revelation. Makes is appear like more than NSA sex. Did she plan directly with the AP for the work trip liaisons? Do you have access to that correspondence? Were there dates, dinner and dancing, wining and dining, or just meet me at the hotel room at the appointed hour?
Careful planning with the outcome assured.

I don't think too many who posted here on this thread concluded it was anything different than what you stated.
Yes, I have access to probably 90% of the correspondence as well as stuff she wrote in her journal, which I will repeat was NOT started to document her foray into infidelity nor did it detail the play by play sexual encounters. Mostly it was she did it or did not, how it came about each time.

Dates??? I guess you would call it that. She did not just bump into these guys and remember its 7 times over that many months or more. They knew when she was going to a race. Her girlfriend was fucking one of the group. On business yes she told them when she would be in the area. Again, remember OM1 was pursuing relentlessly and the first three of 5 times with him happened rather quickly. That leaves a lot of times she had the opportunity and said no, sorry Charlie.

When they were in a large group there was drinking. No she was not out partying when on business. A lot of people in her industry stayed at the same hotel, I hope that answers your questions.

STRIVER
1) You mentioned that she only cheated on selected trips. You mentioned that it wasn't working to do so many things separate. I think that the separate out of town activities need to be curtailed. 
Already agreed upon. No more races, not more girls trips. She already on her own turned down a girls week end in South Beach

2) The journaling. You mentioned that anything significant in there you need to know about. Stick to it. Journaling is no longer a refuge. I think it created too much of a separate persona, too much of a safe space for her. Can't continue as status quo.

Agreed. But she journeled way before this started. I am not telling her she cannot do this. She needs a way to reflect.3) Toxic friends. This seems to be a particular issue for WW. Not all women, and not all wayward women. But it's definitely a thing that some women can be more easily influenced into bad behavior by being in the presence of a influencing friend. Your WW admired the open marriage friend, which sent her down the path.

3) Toxic friends. This seems to be a particular issue for WW. Not all women, and not all wayward women. But it's definitely a thing that some women can be more easily influenced into bad behavior by being in the presence of a influencing friend. Your WW admired the open marriage friend, which sent her down the path.

I posted way back sometime she already told this person that their communication will only be on business. It is only infrequently, and I am not pulling her from the job over this. This person did not twist her arm and actually advised her to come totally clean, better than probably some of her ordinary girlfriends would have done if they knew. They were never best buddies and will no longer do any activities together.

I am relieved to get this done. Now I need to finalize my plans for any outcome.

steadychevy posted 10/7/2019 18:44 PM

Her reaction to the polygraph is very positive. Make sure you carry through.

Buster123 posted 10/7/2019 18:58 PM

She never even asked me what happens if she fails and never said she is worried about being nervous or anything like that causing her to fail. So I guess we will see.

This is a very good sign, good luck.

LemonCurd posted 10/7/2019 19:07 PM

She started to cry profusely and then told me that she was so glad I was going to give her the opportunity to prove to me that she is not lying about anything and that she understands that even if she passes it only means she has a chance to try to repair our marriage and relationship. She offered to do this from the beginning and said she was worried I would not take her up on the offer.

I would bet a kidney she will pass completely, either that or she should become an actress and go for an Oscar next year.

This is why I asked in my last post if she was relieved you were finally going to ask her to do one, I think it will be a big weight off her shoulders too because she sees this as a chance to
prove to you these last months have not been TT and she hasnt betrayed you before.

I hope she passes for what it is worth and hope it becomes a stepping stone for you guys to keep working on your reconciliation. I don't see a last minute confession popping up.

Odonna posted 10/7/2019 19:53 PM

I cannot offer any advice. You seem to have very good goggles on right now to assess your situation. I just wanted to say I applaud how you have been handling this, and I very much hope that the upcoming polygraph gives you a solid jumping off spot to turn the corner on your relationship.

Michigan posted 10/7/2019 21:21 PM

Dates??? I guess you would call it that. She did not just bump into these guys and remember its 7 times over that many months or more. They knew when she was going to a race. Her girlfriend was fucking one of the group. On business yes she told them when she would be in the area

BeyondRage


The OM, which was actually who I call #2, has been blowing up her phone with texts so she obviously ghosted him because he is asking why did she stand him up.

BeyondRage

There may not have been dinner or dancing but there were dates for sex.

[This message edited by Michigan at 9:30 PM, October 7th (Monday)]

DoinBettr posted 10/8/2019 10:26 AM

I am glad she responded well to the poly question.
Even if this is a mid life crisis, what is to say it won't happen again when your girls get married or something else big in your life. She needs to get some IC and perhaps some antidepressants. Maybe menopause is messing her up too. My friend needs them she says or she can bounce all over the mood spectrum.
Good luck. I have been trying to layout that you are repressing a lot of emotion. I am glad you cried. You need to let yourself be sad in front of her. It is the only way she will get this pain you are in.
Do the poly. Before it, ask if she could write up anything you would be pissed about in that GNO timeframe. Then make the poly about what she isn't telling you on that sheet. It allows you to bundle questions better. More, "Are you being truthful about this being all the physical contact you had with men during your GNO timeframe(Give exact timeframe)?"

BeyondRage posted 10/8/2019 17:10 PM

DOIN
I am glad she responded well to the poly question.
Even if this is a mid life crisis, what is to say it won't happen again when your girls get married or something else big in your life. She needs to get some IC and perhaps some antidepressants. Maybe menopause is messing her up too. My friend needs them she says or she can bounce all over the mood spectrum.
Good luck. I have been trying to layout that you are repressing a lot of emotion. I am glad you cried. You need to let yourself be sad in front of her. It is the only way she will get this pain you are in.
Do the poly. Before it, ask if she could write up anything you would be pissed about in that GNO timeframe. Then make the poly about what she isn't telling you on that sheet. It allows you to bundle questions better. More, "Are you being truthful about this being all the physical contact you had with men during your GNO timeframe(Give exact timeframe)?"

Obviously one of my questions will be have you had sex with any other OM other than the two BR knows about?? Wouldn't that encompass this time period??? I figured it would

I have hammered her on this timeframe when we were younger back then and now. She has admitted some groping and dancing way too close on the dance floor and swears she didn't even know their names when boozed up in a group. I can deal with that. I stated earlier back then i had my hands on a few female body parts in a club where it was packed like sardines.

What I am interested in knowing if it went further than that. I thought the big question would encompass that. This goes back a bunch of years.

I am going to take her to dinner on Thursday night and I will give her the opportunity in a relaxed setting to tell me if there is more one last time. I am not going to threaten her with outcomes. I still have to sort all that out myself.

She did tell her mother about the test. I heard it on VAR. She then told me. Her mother told her if she is telling the truth she has nothing to worry about as far as passing the polygraph.
So far, she shows no signs of nerves in any communication or dialogue with me.

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