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What Made You Think You Had The Right/Deserved More Chances?

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Thumos posted 12/9/2019 07:29 AM

Sorry, it's late/early and my brain just registered what you wrote in #1 on that list. Your WW reads here on SI? Including your posts?

She reads, not regularly. She’s read stuff on here in the past. I don’t know how often she’s checking in here now. She knows my handle here as well. I’m not censoring myself on her behalf if that’s what you’re asking.

hikingout posted 12/9/2019 07:46 AM

My husband would have definitely rewarded me with a divorce if I had said any of the above Thumos. The only thing I can guess is some of it must be true to you?

For OP, I do not feel I do deserve a second chance. I feel that my husband has decided to give me one, but it has nothing to do with me having a right to one. There are things I could do to lose that chance, and that chance can be revoked without further reason at any time. Everytime that I hear the Tim McGraw song "live like you are dying", I think that's kind of what marriage is for me post A. To not take another minute of my marriage for granted.

Thumos posted 12/9/2019 07:56 AM

1. Her affair was not as bad as so many posted here on SI - in other words she wasn’t a serial cheater, she didn’t have a LTA. She had a three moth affair with a friend of mine and they had unprotected sex in our home.

2. She loves me so much.

3. She only had sex with him “one time.”

4. She says I must know that she loves me so much.

5. We’ve been together so long and built such a good life.

6. I couldn’t possibly be willing to blow up my family over something like this.

7. I’m sexually “immature” since I’ve only ever been intimate with one woman in my life (HER) and don’t understand that is was just meaningless sex.

8. It would devastate our children.

9. The bond we have is so special, and the sex we have is so loving and intimate and amazing. I must know this. Surely I must.

10. She made “a horrible mistake”

11. She doesn’t know what she was thinking.

12. She never meant to hurt me.

13. It wasn’t about me.

14. She thought I didn’t care.

15. She thought we’d fallen out of love.

16. Our marriage wasn’t good for years (although she recently recanted this).

17. I’m triggered when I have to see the AP all the time? What about her and her anxiety and how much she is triggered?

Hikingout, which of the above resonates with me that I find true?

#2 resonates. I do believe she loves me, but she doesn’t understand herself how to be a safe partner, and it remains unclear whether she respects me. I don’t believe wives who respect their husbands have three-month affairs and gaslight them. I’ve done nothing to earn her disrespect; in fact, just the opposite. Right now, she’s in panic mode.

#4 resonates. It’s obvious to anyone who knows us. Unfortunately for her, I don’t consider this a good enough reason to stay — and she’s merely confirming why her affair was so destructive and why it’s self-evident that her previous attempts to rewrite the history of a good marriage compounded the hurt and were obviously lies.

#8 resonates. It would devastate our children for us to divorce and that has weighed on me heavily the past three years.

The rest are logically contradictory (for example, she thought we’d fallen out of love, but we love each other so much, and I forgot to add that she says she initially withheld her confession of sex because she was worried it would devastate me — but if she thought I didn’t care why would it devastate me)

They are also lies and some version of DARVO (like #17) and minimization.

EDIT: #9 is partially true. The sex has always been amazing, except while she was having the affair. Now, about half the time, even though it’s as amazing as it always was, it doesn’t feel special. I’d say about half the time I’m still having to power through mind movies.

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:59 AM, December 9th (Monday)]

numb&dumb posted 12/9/2019 07:59 AM

After Dday my W deserved a Divorce. Anything short of that was grace or me believing that I could one day find it.

Deserved is such a loaded word around here. To level set no one "deserves," or is entitled to anything. That is reality. A harsh one, but reality none-the-less.

hikingout posted 12/9/2019 08:38 AM

Thumos, in all fairness I hadn't reviewed your list quite closely, I know that I did tell my H that I loved him and talked to him about all the evidence of that.

I do understand I didn't love him while having an affair. And, our marriage was good for years that kind of went without saying.

But, not everything on your list is not true, it's just so much of it is insulting. I think inherently, when I confessed, I knew that nothing I said after that mattered, so I guess for the most part, I didn't spend a lot of energy trying to talk him into his choice. Had I done that, for my husband it would have had the opposite effect.

However, I will say my lack of words and concentration on actions failed me just as much that he eventually still asked for a divorce. It takes both words and actions.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:39 AM, December 9th (Monday)]

layla1234 posted 12/9/2019 10:47 AM

12. She never meant to hurt me.

13. It wasn’t about me.

14. She thought I didn’t care.

15. She thought we’d fallen out of love

In my opinion, these all sort of contradict each other. If she thought you didn't care, she would have cheated right in front of you.

Thumos posted 12/9/2019 12:57 PM

In my opinion, these all sort of contradict each other.

Yep. I’ve brought this very thing up with her several times. “Everything you’ve said contradicts something else you’ve said.”

For example, I asked her if she thought the sex with the AP was “meaningless sex” and that she thought I wouldn’t care, then why didn’t she sit me down and tell me she was planning on having meaningless sex with someone else? After all, if she assumed I wouldn’t care, and it was meaningless, what would be the harm in me knowing about it?

Answer: Crickets.

hikingout posted 12/9/2019 13:09 PM

While they are completely contradictory, these are common stories WS tell themselves. I certainly did.

I will say that I would stand by this one:

It wasn't about you. That one is maybe the truest of all the ones she wrote. Yes, she did it to you, but the reasons were about her. I think that one holds up.

nightmare01 posted 12/9/2019 14:37 PM

Out of curiosity:

Deserved is such a loaded word around here. To level set no one "deserves," or is entitled to anything. That is reality. A harsh one, but reality none-the-less.

Did / does a BS deserve faithfulness? The marriage contract that we verbally agreed to in front of friends and family, indicates yes.

After the contract is broken, is everything in it null and void from that point forward - for both parties?

Zugzwang posted 12/9/2019 15:18 PM

Have you changed? Are you capable of change? Do you truly want to change?

If no, then leave.

WS earn it with our BS. Not deserve it.
We deserve to live on with our lives. We deserve to change and get healthy. We deserve what every human being deserves. Making amends might mean you are willing to accept the hurt outbursts of a BS, if you choose to stay. You might have to do it with someone else if you can't or your BS is incapable of healing or it simply is a dealbreaker.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 3:21 PM, December 9th (Monday)]

Thumos posted 12/9/2019 15:53 PM

After the contract is broken, is everything in it null and void from that point forward - for both parties?

I'm one that takes the position that, yes, the vows were shattered and the covenant was broken. A wayward spouse who unilaterally opened the marriage with a girlfriend or boyfriend has divorced their faithful spouse spiritually, emotionally, psychologically and physically. The only thing remaining is a shred of paper and some bands of precious metal that have lost all meaning (other than to signify fraud).

If you reconcile, you're rebuilding a completely new marriage. I take this quite literally.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:53 PM, December 9th (Monday)]

gmc94 posted 12/9/2019 18:21 PM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A wayward spouse who unilaterally opened the marriage with [an AP] has divorced their faithful spouse spiritually, emotionally, psychologically and physically. The only thing remaining is a shred of paper and some bands of precious metal that have lost all meaning (other than to signify fraud).
exactly.

It still feels fake to say "my husband". He stopped being my husband the minute he dropped his trousers. He just neglected to let me know.

for both parties?
I think that's an interesting question. I suspect most WS would not see "everything" in that broken contract as "null and void". I did and I still do. I believe my WH would say that he never stopped being married bc he never stopped "loving me" (and to this day he cannot seem to grasp my perspective that "love" and "affair" are mutually exclusive). I also believe that his LTA wiped out all of the kindness he'd shown me from day 1, as at every single turn, had I been given the choice between kindness X (everything from cooking to putting me through grad school) and a faithful spouse, I'm pretty doggone sure that faithful spouse would have won every time. He can't grasp this, and I suspect many WS can't either.


[This message edited by gmc94 at 6:34 PM, December 9th, 2019 (Monday)]

nightmare01 posted 12/9/2019 18:56 PM

I think that's an interesting question. I suspect most WS would not see "everything" in that broken contract as "null and void". I did and I still do. I believe my WH would say that he never stopped being married bc he never stopped "loving me"

I had a conversation with my WW about this. She said she never stopped loving me, she just loved him more than me during her affair.

My first reaction, and my reply was that I don't want a love from anyone that includes mental and physical abuse. That's NOT love in my book.

Later upon reflection (and this was not shared with WW) I was confounded how love could be some kind of analog gradient, like a scale or the volume knob on the stereo. For me, love is and always has been binary. I love completely, or I completely don't. I wonder if my WW's POV is prevalent these days? If so, I'm either a throwback or mentally deficient.

gmc94 posted 12/9/2019 20:33 PM

Nightmare01: from the looks of your dday & join date, you've had a LOT more time to reflect on this front :)
Perhaps it will change with further reflection, but right now I'm still at:

my reply was that I don't want a love from anyone that includes mental and physical abuse. That's NOT love in my book.


Clearly "love" can take on different forms/meanings. We "love" ice cream or baseball, but that's nothing like the "love" of a spouse. I can say I "love" my mother, but I do not want a relationship with her. But it seems to me that any use of the term "love" must include basic respect - which is the antithesis of an A.

Striver posted 12/9/2019 22:23 PM

I'm one that takes the position that, yes, the vows were shattered and the covenant was broken. A wayward spouse who unilaterally opened the marriage with a girlfriend or boyfriend has divorced their faithful spouse spiritually, emotionally, psychologically and physically. The only thing remaining is a shred of paper and some bands of precious metal that have lost all meaning (other than to signify fraud).

If you reconcile, you're rebuilding a completely new marriage. I take this quite literally.

Per religious tradition, the marriage is only nullified for the betrayed partner.

The betrayed partner is free to remarry. The adulterous partner is not. Further relations, marriages of the adulterous partner are considered adulterous. The adulterous partner is NOT freed from the marriage by their conduct. The betrayed partner IS freed.

BraveSirRobin posted 12/9/2019 22:34 PM

Which religious tradition is this?

ETA: Never mind. This question could lead to a doctrinal debate, which (although I would enjoy it) is clearly forbidden by the guidelines.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 10:44 PM, December 9th (Monday)]

Zugzwang posted 12/10/2019 06:10 AM

We "love" ice cream or baseball, but that's nothing like the "love" of a spouse.

That is why I say there is object love. We object love people. For what they can give us. At least I did and suspect many WS do. It is all about value. "I loved my spouse during my affair, he/she does this and this and this..."that is all about value and object love. That isn't about who that person is and what they deserve. There isn't any respect going on. Object/value love is selfish. Just watch. Ask a person why they loved their spouse and most of it is about what that person does for them. It just isn't 100%. They go looking for the small percent for someone else to fill that the BS doesn't.

nightmare01 posted 12/10/2019 10:28 AM

That is why I say there is object love. We object love people. For what they can give us. At least I did and suspect many WS do. It is all about value. "I loved my spouse during my affair, he/she does this and this and this..."that is all about value and object love. That isn't about who that person is and what they deserve. There isn't any respect going on. Object/value love is selfish. Just watch. Ask a person why they loved their spouse and most of it is about what that person does for them. It just isn't 100%. They go looking for the small percent for someone else to fill that the BS doesn't.

That's just using people, and is the antithesis of love IMO - and I'm sure you agree. It's like saying that I love my 13mm wrench, but sometimes I want to turn a 15mm bolt so I'll love another wrench for that. In truth, I don't love any of my wrenches - they're just tools I use.

The people in our lives should be more than that.

LLXC posted 12/10/2019 11:21 AM

Thus divorce rape for men continues unabated

Divorce RAPE? Really? Just.. no.

For the original poster, you don't deserve a second chance at all. But you also don't get to decide what is best for him. He does and maybe that will mean divorce. And maybe, as you continue to grow, he will see that perhaps he is safe with you and may want to rekindle your relationship. As it is, keep growing and find out what your husband needs and do it

Zugzwang posted 12/10/2019 16:47 PM

To me it is the antithesis. To an unhealthy person. It is love. Same shit is spewed by abusers that beat the crap out of someone they claim to love. That is the point I am making. It is object love. They love a person that they see as an object. The same way I love ice cream.

The people in our lives should be more than that
Absolutely.

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