SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Sorry for the long story, this is me trying to condense it.

My wife[33F] and I [33M] have been together for over nine years and just recently married a little over two years ago. We recently went through a miscarriage. It was devastating for us both. This would have been our first child. We both didn't know how to handle the situation. She was broken, and was constantly crying due to the loss, and as a man, I did what I could to be by her side and comfort her. Whatever I could do to make her feel better and not cry made me believe she was getting better. I didn't know she just began suffering in silence instead.

Around five months after the miscarriage, we tried to move on with our lives. We work opposite schedules so we rarely see each other aside from the occasional weekend that she has off. In the past I always encouraged her to get out of her comfort zone and join groups and hang out with friends or coworkers. I've always supported her through schooling and social life. I trusted her and had no reason to believe otherwise.

Every once in a while her and her coworkers would go out to bars and restaurants, and she'd ask and I'd always encourage her to go. Since they all work the late shifts, it would always be too late for me to join. She'd be open with me about who was there and show me pictures of the group, etc. She wouldn't get back until 2-3AM, which is late, but pretty normal given the time they get off work. Things started to get suspicious when I noticed that she wasn't where she said she'd be one of those nights (thanks to Find My Friends). I questioned her on it and she said she was at her coworker's place to drop him off and use the restroom. Subsequent days she was acting differently and we ended up arguing about something I don't even remember about what (we never argued in our relationship over things). She said we don’t communicate and that I didn’t give her what she needed during the miscarriage. She said she felt alone and I wasn’t there. She also mentioned that she feels our relationship has always been this way and that she knew what she was getting into when she married me, thinking that this was me, and she compromised and accepted it. I never knew any of this. Long story short she said she wanted to be alone and single. I asked her to give me a chance to show her that I could change. I was told that I had 10 years, how much more time would does she need to give me?

This of course hit me like a freight train as this has never come up before. I asked her if there was someone else and she denied, but the next night she finally told me that there was, that she was attracted to someone else. I asked her what made this person, so attractive, and she mentioned that he communicates very well. I asked her if she cheated on me, and she said no, they just hugged and talked a lot (This I truly believe she’s being truthful).

As the months came and went, I became progressively frantic. I went through all the stages that I see all of you went through: Blaming myself, grief, anger, etc. As soon as I found out that I wasn’t as communicative (which is true, I was never a huge open book), I flipped a switch and became “too communicative” and she said it was too much for her and that I was trying to cram 10 years of stuff all at once at her. I felt like my world was shattering, I did whatever I could to save our M. I contacted the other person to tell him that I knew what was going on and that they need to keep their talks to strictly professional communication at work, without threatening him in any way. He told her and she was furious that I did that, I never saw her so angry in our 10 years together, she said she didn’t know how we’d get through that. At that time I didn’t read any M counseling books, to know that this behavior was only pushing her further away. I was begging, changing everything I did to cater to her, to only find out I was smothering her. She wanted space more and more. I pushed for counseling and she refused. She ended up doing her own individual counseling later down the line without telling me.

She never felt like she could open up to me and talk to me for whatever reason. I always was the one bearing my soul to her while she sat there in silence. The lack of communication began to get to me and I needed some sort of answers, I began to look through her phone to find she’s been talking to the other person. The talks were never sexual in nature, but just very understanding, etc. It got to the point where she’d question our marriage and she was dreaming of a future with this person. The OP (who’s single) would tell her he’d wait for her (while dating other people). This only made it more illicit and attractive to her. It got to a point where I called the OP again to try to talk and tell him to stop messing with our marriage, and that he only sees the good half and doesn’t see what he’s doing to her behind the scenes. He was too scared to talk to me and said he didn’t want any part of this. I believe after that he tried to end it with her, which put a lot of doubt into her mind about him. This game would continue for some time where she’d try to end things with him and end up talking to him anyway. She still says she’s never physically cheated, which I believe, as that is one moral ground she still has, but the EA is taking its toll on us.

As the months wore on, I would catch her on small lies here and there, disregarding them trying to look at the big picture, while giving her the space she needs in hopes that she’ll come back to me. She’s only been drifting further and further away. Doing so made me more frantic and she caught me on her phone, so she cut me off her access (which I understand). All of this behavior for me is very uncharacteristic and she tells me she doesn’t know who I am anymore…and honestly I don’t either. She’s been getting hyper paranoid at any little thing that I do because she feels like she’s being watched (which I have been).

She no longer tells me she loves me, she doesn’t even kiss me anymore and only get hugs. Intimacy is once a month at best. Just as when I thought we were getting better slowly she calls me to tell me she’s leaving me and she’s done because she found a hidden camera that I didn’t tell her about. I didn’t tell her about it because I knew she’d react this way, but really the camera wasn’t in a private area, it was on a pet tree so I could monitor the pets to see what they do during the day. Anyway, I don’t know if she’s going to come back from this. Because this has been so long and drawn out, my emotions are fatigued. A big part of me still wants this marriage to work, but another part of me has been coming to terms with the loss and wants to put her out of her misery.

I’ve done so much for this M, I’ve supported us from the ground up. I feel used, disrespected and unappreciated for everything I’ve done. I never gave her any reason to feel insecure, and made her life too easy. Does this M look like a waste of my time or is there any hope?

Update: 02/28/20

This hell of a limbo lasted up until earlier this week.

She moved out and the moment she moved out the EA turned into a PA multiple times. (confirmed by data)

This is definitely depressing and I am very sad for the "loss" of my former wife...not the wife she is now.

That was my final straw. I'm filing for a D. Good riddance.

Update: 03/30/20

We signed our final papers this weekend. She now begins to feel everything and hopes for a future. Things are just so badly broken that she doesn't have the courage or strength to face it. It took a D for her to see things the way they are unfortunately. I am not going back. For the first time in a long time...I feel free.

Update: 05/11/2020

I figured it's been a little time since I've last posted and I figured I'd update.

The divorce was finalized in record time even in this pandemic. I had a harder time selling a used car.

The Ex-wife has been reminiscing about our past and trying to see how I am and wishing for the end to be the start of a new beginning with us. I didn't really respond to any of this and had some passive aggressive responses which finally stopped her from contacting me for the most part. She has since sent photos of our milestones to try to keep me in her memory or something. I don't know what her point is.

From what I understand, she's still with the OM. I'm not over what happened, but I'm much better now.

Besides the support of family and friends, the best thing that helped me get through this was meeting someone else. Nothing serious (yet). It reminded me that there can be something good after all of this mess.

[This message edited by Anotheron3 at 4:43 PM, May 11th (Monday)]

You are wasting your efforts and investing time into something where YOU are the only one doing any work. You are the only one making any effort.

Unfortunately you cannot “get her to change her mindset”. Only she can do that (I learned that very hard lesson during my H’s Affair). My H had an EA that led to him telling me he was divorcing me.

I did all the work just like you. It got me nowhere. He continued to cheat. He continued to want a D. I continued to try to save our marriage. Until one day I just had enough. I couldn’t live in limbo any longer.

You are living in limbo unfortunately. She’s not yet made a clear decision but she’s not leaving you yet she’s not trying to make amends or do anything to save the marriage. So you are left wondering day to day - will today be the day she decides to end it? Will today be the day she makes a firm decision?

Many of us here at SI know that pain. Very few people find out about the affair and end the marriage immediately.

Get yourself a good support team - friends, family, minister or priest if you are religious, counselor or therapist etc. this will help you have a sounding board in real life.

See a attorney to find out your rights in a D. Some states are no-fault so division of assets is by a set formula. You need to know what you at be required to pay her if you D. I’m not saying come for D. Just have a consultation with two or three attorneys.

Keep your proof or evidence of her affair safe. You might need it.

Keep posting here - just know she is a Acting like a typical cheater. We referred to it as “the cheaters handbook” because the behavior is just so predictable and common to those who cheat.

Thank you for the cold hard dose of reality. It's not exactly what I wanted to hear, but something I needed to hear.

You're right I have been in limbo for quite some time. I've been so embarrassed to share my pain with others due to the fear of humiliation of family, and friends. I've only let a handful of friends know, some very recently, yet nobody in my family knows.

I've started to see a therapist in real life, as we tried online couples counseling and she didn't really put any effort into it. So now we are both in individual counseling.

I've asked her in one of our arguments if she wants a D. She didn't answer and just said she was still here. It does feel like a lost cause.

I had a slightly longer comment for you, but it got lost in cyberspace. Other than my wife's AP, I would not wish this hell on anyone, so I'm very sorry you are here.

Here are some practical suggestions, and yeah I'm serious about all of them. They all serve a purpose. Newly betrayed husbands have a tendency to balk at this advice and still want to idolize their wives on a pedestal. Take her off that pedestal right now and take action on the advice you're given here.

First, stop reposing any confidence that your wife is telling any truth whatsoever. You don't know that. She's already a proven liar. Women have a tendency to minimize infidelity, and they do this on hard mode. They will lie and lie to your face, convincingly, and minimize sexual activity one or two steps back ("handholding or hugs" if they were deep kissing, "kissing" if they were actually giving fellatio, "sex only once and it was awkward" if they're humping like bunnies). Chances are, given the length of time, this has been a physical affair on some level. Adults don't fumble around like teenagers. They have sex, and women enjoy sex every bit as much as men (if not more, after all they can have amazing multiple orgasms). Sexually mature women will arrange for specific settings, timing, circumstance etc. to ensure sex with a man they are attracted to.

Second, it sounds like your wife is well along in the typical WW process of transferring her loyalty to the other man. That's why you're getting the stone cold stonewalling. So you need to gear up to take some proactive steps to snap her head back to reality.

1. Bottom line is you are unfortunately doing what is called the "pick me dance." Stop doing that. Tell your wife you want to be married to her, but you will not share her with a boyfriend. And you won't wait around like a lost puppy for her to choose.

2. Implement a 180 on her. Read about it in the library sidebar. You decide the level of "hard" or "soft" 180. I recommend moving confidently forward with your life in an "all business, no lovey dovey stuff" version of the 180.

3. Contacting the OM was a mistake, but contacting a girlfriend or wife would not be. If he has either, contact them immediately. This will blow up the affair fantasy.

4. Start seriously lifting heavy weights as a way to spend time as you step into the 180. Look up Stoppani's size protocol. Eat a protein rich clean diet. If you commit to it seriously -- no more "let's go lift some light weights in the gym" -- this will boost your testosterone levels and your self confidence and psychology will soar. You will start putting on serious muscle and start attracting the attention of other women. Your wife will notice, and you will start noticing how other women look at you (because it’s been shown that women visually respond on a subconscious level to a muscular V-shaped male body even when they say things like "I don't really like muscles" - just another of those things I’ve personally heard women say in the past that didn’t bear out in reality - perhaps for some women but not for very many). Don't delay on this - commit to it.

5. Go ahead and VAR your wife's car and common household location for phone conversations (like where she puts on makeup). This is a voluntary decision by you, but many people here did it. Brings immediate clarity.

6. Get ready for a shit show. Steel yourself. That means preparing yourself for your wife to turn on the waterworks once you have a firmer grasp of her adultery. Her tears are meaningless. Seriously. That sounds harsh. It's true. Her tears are bitter for herself and her entitled attitude. That's all. Do not be swayed by them.

7. Get ready to deliver ultimatums such as her giving you a detailed written timeline, submitting to a polygraph (yes, really, don't skip this) and her taking proactive steps to schedule IC with a betrayal trauma specialist and her reading "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda McDonald.

Some initial thoughts for you.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:30 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

Thank you for the suggestions Thumos!

I plan on finally implementing #1, after doing the "pick me dance" failed. I wish I found this forum sooner. I was just doing what I felt was right emotionally...which apparently was oh so wrong.

I really do believe her about not having a PA. I've caught her meeting up with him in very public places for coffee or lunch. Usually it's before work, otherwise she goes to work and comes home. I will keep what you said in mind as I start to implement the rest of your suggestions.

I was just doing what I felt was right emotionally...which apparently was oh so wrong.

Very common and here's why: You love your wife. You picked her for a reason. You wanted to do life together.

Part of the trauma of infidelity is in wrapping your head around the fact that the version of the wife you thought you married was not the real person. That doesn't mean your wife is evil -- although adultery is quite wicked -- it just means she managed to keep a mask/costume on that gave you her "best self" and you went along with it. Now you're seeing the real person. You want the idealized version you thought you had. That person is gone. You'll have to wrap your head around that and it takes awhile.

You don't have to be Christian to absorb the wisdom of the book of Proverbs.

Here's one to consider - Proverbs 30:20.

The proverb describes a pattern:

1. The woman eats (commits adultery)

2. She wipes her mouth (eliminates as much evidence as she can).

3. She says "I have done nothing wrong" (lies and minimizes, blameshifts the affair onto, gaslights you, rewrites the history of the marriage, DARVOs you, expresses entitlement and lack of remorse).

This pattern is played out over and over again. Your wife isn't special.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:01 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

There is a lot you can do, but I think a hard 180 here is your best bet. She has gone her own way, time to go yours. Who knows, it may wake her up a bit.

I really do believe her about not having a PA

Unfortunately everyone wants to believe that. I don't want it to be a PA either, but I also want to be realistic with you. If any deep kissing happened, that breaches a "Rubicon" barrier and other physical intimacy quickly branches out from there.

You’re in the betrayed syndrome.

It’s all my fault (cheaters rewrite the marital history) pretty common.

Doing the “pick me dance”. All this does is make you look weak and less attractive. It just lowers your status even more.

I must give her privacy to cheat.

I must trust and believe her. Snooping is bad.

Your wife is a very typical cheater. Nothing special about this at all.

She’s hiding her phone for a reason bud. If they have a lot of contact don’t be surprised that this is a physical affair.

She’s cut you off from intimacy because she doesn’t want to cheat on her new boyfriend. Not uncommon.

You don’t want to see or believe the obvious. Again, pretty typical in these cases but it won’t get you a thing except a longer stay in limbo.

Set her down and tell her you want the full truth and OM is cutoff permanently. No more contact. It’s either him or me. Then act accordingly.

If not you’ll stay in this 3 way marriage which works well for your wife. You not so much.

Wake up and stop being so naive.

Oh and cheaters have one thing in common.

They all lie a lot. That’s all you’re getting

The Calvary isn’t coming. This is all up to you

[This message edited by Marz at 12:14 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

I appreciate the cold hard reality MarZ. I'm working my way up to this level. What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I'm just now trying to come to terms with it.

I admit I have been making my self seem pathetic and weak. I'm going to try to change that once I get a chance to talk to her next time...If she decides to ever come back.

Double post

[This message edited by Anotheron3 at 12:28 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

YOU cannot fix the M and all indications that you have provided are that your WW is not making any attempt on her part.

We all know what you are dealing with is very difficult, as we have been through similar situations. I made many similar mistakes in trying to save my M. Finally, I realized I couldn't do it alone and my WW was not participating.

Think about it. Your WW goes around chasing another guy and YOU are the one who needs to make changes? You need to recognize how flawed this is. Hopefully when you do, you will start to be angry and stand up for yourself.

You cannot control your WW and MAKE her love you. You can control how you handle this situation. YOU did not fail. Your WW was struggling with emotions and rather than discuss her concerns with you, she chose to chase another man.

I agree with the others. Start the 180. Start to detach. If she decides she wants to start doing the work to fix the M, you will see it.

Thanks for the great advice Tigersrule77! I barely started posting and this forum has made me feel so much better about things. I'm glad I haven't been "crazy" and this is actually somewhat normal.

Your WW goes around chasing another guy and YOU are the one who needs to make changes? You need to recognize how flawed this is.

I know...I recognized this as well. I guess I hoped if I changed enough, I would outshine my "competition" and win her back.

[This message edited by Anotheron3 at 12:37 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

Anotheron3,

A miscarriage, like other causes of grief and sorrow, carries the potential to do tremendous damage to a marriage. Similarly, many marriages fail after the death of a child. Also, her explanation about the lack of communication and your not providing what she needed, how she felt alone, feels relationship has always been this way and that she knew what she was getting into when she married me, thinking that this was me, and she compromised and accepted it was, most likely, utter bullshit. If not, she would have (or certainly should have) revealed those concerns to you, in some manner, well before she sought an affair. She fabricated that explantion by "rewriting history" to justify in her mind the affair. You are not to blame. You had nothing to do with her chosing to have an affair. You were in the same marriage and you did not cheat. She is 100% responsible for willingly going to OM's apartment, being alone with him, texting, hiding the relationship from you, hugging him, etc.

She says that she has never physically cheated (beyond hugging). But, she has been only drifting further and further away. She was dreaming of a future with OM. She has been hiding her affair from you and, most likely, is lying about not being more physical than just "hugging". She has cheated and has betrayed you in any case. She stole time from you to give him her presence, emotions and thoughts. That is betrayal enough.

Her finding the "hidden" camera is an unfortunate event. Can you show her any of the recordings so that you can prove that the pets were being surveilled and not her? You can offer to take a polygraph test to prove your intent of your surveillance, if it gets to that.

You ask if there is a any hope for your marriage. The answer with what information that you have provided is: It depends. You have so much uncertainty wrt this situation that you really do not know what the current condition is, except that it is bleak. Also the situation has already been so long and drawn out, that your emotions are fatigued. I think that she has also suppressed her emotions for you significantly, if not altogether.

Please read the information on this site about 1) not engaging in the "pick me" game and 2) the 180 process. They are the most effective tools, even if not intuitive, to help you get out of infidelity, whether R or D. Many posters (have or will be) joining your thread with great advice as to how to effectively implement the 180. The "pick me" dance just does not work and, in fact, makes you look weak and undesirable in her eyes. It also requires you to double or triple down on your emotions for her without any basis that she will reciprocate your feelings. That sets you up for additional paid and suffering. Not good.

Make appointments with several (at least 3) divorce lawyers so that you understand the process and potential results of the legal process.

Given the current situation, and length of time over which it has developed, and her seeming indifferent attitude toward you and the marriage, I would suggest that you consider presenting her now with dissolution/separation/divorce (as appropriate in your situation) documents. You should tell her that you will let her go, that you will move on to find your happiness with someone else. You then immediately withdraw all emotional and financial support for her as a part of the 180. She has already "fired" you as her husband. That ended your obligation to support/compensate her in any way. This is done to protect you and to prepare you for proceeding with the rest of your life without her. A side-effect of that separation is that she may be shocked into reconsidering what she may lose. Her reaction will tell you a lot as to whether or not there is any hope for your marriage.

If reconciliation comes up, you will need to know exactly the extent of the affair. You can not forgive anything about which you have no knowledge. You need to think about where your red line is. If has crossed that line already, save yourself time, effort and pain. You must make a decision if you even really want her back after this betrayal. If the answer is no, and even if it is only maybe, then file and move on. Nothing is a done deal until the divorce is final. Developments may happen that convince you that the answer for both you and your WW is yes. Then there is hope.

How to do trust what she says? She must provide you with sufficient, overwhelming information to prove that what she says is true. If she can not provide concrete physical or documental evidence, then uncorroborated statements must be verified via a polygraph test. Please read up about the polygraph being used as a tool for providing some credibility (maybe not 100%, but good enough for your purposes) to her story. If she refuses or balks, that also provides a significant clue to you that she has been withholding the truth from you. Of course, you should get access to her electronics (phones, computers, tablets, etc.), along with passwords so that you can read the texts, emails, etc. for yourself.

As this process unfolds, and you implement the 180, your objective is to arrive at a mindset of indifference to your WW. She needs to know that you will get out of infidelity one way or other, without a doubt. You should show strength, dignity, and honor. Sadsack will not work. Anger (expressed to her) will backfire. Use anger to generate strength for you to execute the process as the BS.

Others will fill in what I have omitted from this initial post. Please be open with this forum about your situation. The more information that you provide will help posters provide you with tailored advice.

Sending power, strength and support.

I asked her if she cheated on me, and she said no, they just hugged and talked a lot (This I truly believe she’s being truthful).

Let me ask you, how many guys are going to have an adult female over to their house over and over and over to talk and hold hands and to bond emotionally?

Sorry...it doesn't work that way. Adults in an EA that have access to each other do not stop at holding hands.

Next she'll tell you that kissed once.

Unfortunately, that will be a lie as well.

Eventually it will be that they had sex one time and she hated it.

Also a lie.

It sucks...but it's true.

Thank you PassThis for this perspective! There is a lot we need to talk about because we've just been dancing around the subject for far too long. She's constantly telling me to leave the OP out of this as "she's the problem" and that he is just a symptom. I know far more than she thinks, and need to finally just tell her, and start the hard 180.

Only time will tell. I will try to put as much detail as possible, but due to the fact that this has gone on for so long, I've left a lot out due to length.

I totally understand your point GoldenR.

As much as I don't want to believe this I know that this is a possibility.

She has been trying to "regain" my trust by restricting all extra curricular activities in the past couple months. Any time I brought something up, she would go "full stop" and extreme. I told her I didn't feel comfortable with her going out with her coworkers after work (even for an hour), she said she'll "never" go out again. I caught her using social media talking to the OP, she deleted all social media from her life (For now at least). There were a few times where I caught her in a lie spending maybe 10-15 minutes after work "talking." But I can only trust that nothing is going on beside that.

I've asked her in one of our arguments if she wants a D. She didn't answer and just said she was still here. It does feel like a lost cause.

I went thru this hell for six months. I am sorry for you. I know that pain well. It hurts they don’t give an honest answer and continue to string you along. My H played me like a yo-yo. I want a D, I don’t want a D the next day. Two weeks later I want a D. Two days later I don’t want a D.

So I made up his mind for him - I was now going to D him. It was him or me and I chose me.

Your wife is a coward (sorry to name call here but she is). She is using you for her plan B or back up plan. She wants a D BUT she doesn’t t have the guts to tell you. She wants to see how things play out with the OM first. And it’s comfortable where she is. She has a safety net - you!!!!

If I could go back and change one thing - the second my H told me “I don’t know what I want” I should have ended it. Because that telegraphs loud and clear I am no longer his first choice. I then lived thru D/no D crap and it really was the worst.

I have always loved my H no matter what. I would always answer the question that he was my first choice and our marriage was what I wanted. It’s just unfortunate the cheaters don’t see it that way and let their “infatuation/affair” cloud their judgement.

The day I told my H he was free to go - suddenly it was no longer what he wanted. I know he ended the Affair a few hours before I found out on dday2 that he had continued her cheating. But it doesn’t matter. What matters is he was ready to kick me to the curb (which he deeply regrets now).

Get yourself out of limbo. It’s akin to living in hell.

Glad to hear you have your own counselor. My counselor was fabulous and saved my sanity lol.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 1:39 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

The1stWife:

Your sure is a coward (sorry to name call here but she is). She is using you for her plan B or back up plan. She wants a D BUT she doesn’t t have the guts to tell you. She wants to see his things own out with the OM first. And it’s comfortable where she is. She has a home and a safety net - you!!!!

I couldn't agree with you more here. And you're right. I know she doesn't want to "hurt me" but she already is, every day.

I know she was telling him to move on, but when he started to date she got mad at him and pulled him back in. I don't want to be "plan B" anymore.