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While this wouldn’t rise quite to the level of an epiphany, I’ve made something of an observation in myself that might shed some light for both betrayed and wayward spouses. As a betrayed myself, this has helped me to some extent understand the almost insatiable drive to make our spouse’s behavior “make sense” from our frame of reference and, most importantly, to fully and completely grasp all the elements of the betrayal. The facts, the timeline, what they talked about, what they did, what he or she was thinking that made possible the betrayal, the whys, etc, it’s all critical to provide some relief to that drive to investigate and unmask, to find the whole truth, the whole story!

We as betrayed have an incredibly developed sense of what’s true and false, what’s deceptive and what’s authentic. Until what we’re being told makes sense, where there are no gaps, no missing pieces, we continue to tear and rip at the fabric of our reality, trying to create some semblance of order, some sense out of the chaos we’ve been thrown into. Even a hint of deception, resistance or defensiveness sends us into the void, investigating and ruminating. After all, what else are they not telling us?!?!? And so it goes.....

The only way to mitigate this, to alleviate this perpetual and sometimes destructive obsession is to have our waywards completely, totally and openly tell us everything- all elements, including how they are feeling, how they felt, what they thought, everything. Anything short of the total truth, the complete story, will invariably leave the betrayed mind to focus massive amounts of negative energy on the wayward, unconsciously and sometimes consciously. The result makes it almost impossible to heal, to reconcile and rebuild trust. Any shadows must be gone, there can be no doors, no doubts, for reconciliation to be possible. Of course, as we read here over and over, waywards must never trickle truth, minimize, project, blame or defend the indefensible. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is always the best recipe. Anything else will fail.

Physics I do think you are very correct if R is being attempted. Any lying, minimizing, omission, etc will kill R faster than anything.

I also as a BW get what you're saying about needing one's reality to make sense. After dday I felt like that for sure. Like I had woken up in a completely different dimension than the one I'd always known. When I was trying to R, that was the hardest mental block I had. Why - How - Why - How - over and over and over.

Just wanted to say for me - once D was certain... I was still struggling with that need to know. But the more time that has passed and the more distance and clarity I have gotten, I have come to realize that I never will get why and how he could do what he did. I won't ever understand it. The simplistic answer is that he's fucked up, worse than I ever even knew. But the more complicated truth is that I am not wired in a way ideologically that I would ever make the choices he did. And no amount of words from him will ever make that make sense. I still struggle sometimes and probably will for a long time, but it is better by far now than it used to be.

So yes - truth is paramount. If you are trying for R. And if you can get it. But knowing your own personal internal truth is more important either way you go IMHO.

Physics

We as betrayed have an incredibly developed sense of what’s true and false, what’s deceptive and what’s authentic. Until what we’re being told makes sense, where there are no gaps, no missing pieces, we continue to tear and rip at the fabric of our reality, trying to create some semblance of order, some sense out of the chaos we’ve been thrown into. Even a hint of deception, resistance or defensiveness sends us into the void, investigating and ruminating. After all, what else are they not telling us?!?!? And so it goes.....

I definitely think you are on to something here. I think that's why I argued with my WW's Godmother so much - because my WW had told her lies and I wanted the Godmother to see it. It's gas lighting.

The only way to mitigate this, to alleviate this perpetual and sometimes destructive obsession is to have our waywards completely, totally and openly tell us everything- all elements, including how they are feeling, how they felt, what they thought, everything. Anything short of the total truth, the complete story, will invariably leave the betrayed mind to focus massive amounts of negative energy on the wayward, unconsciously and sometimes consciously. The result makes it almost impossible to heal, to reconcile and rebuild trust. Any shadows must be gone, there can be no doors, no doubts, for reconciliation to be possible. Of course, as we read here over and over, waywards must never trickle truth, minimize, project, blame or defend the indefensible. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is always the best recipe. Anything else will fail.

I'm not sure I'd want everything - but I definitely want access to everything. So I think you are still on to something. If I were interested in reconciling I would need this level of openness. Pure, unadulterated truth on demand - if I wanted it.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 7:51 AM, February 13th (Thursday)]

. It's endless. I have simply given a LOT more thought to her, us, and him than he ever did. The qualities of his AP had become far more important to me than they ever were to him. So how much more information can I expect him to give me when I know the names of her sisters and who knows if he even realizes she has any.

This has also been my experience. I know way more about her than he ever did or cares to. I think some of this was because I was sent digging to try and get that magic truth that would make sense of everything (on DDAy he was not in a mental place to give me the answers and his psychologist told him not to talk so digging I went)

At 3.5 years out I know too much and not enough. I know and remember more detail than he ever will. On one level he really can’t remember ( he was manic) yet on another I know he has compartmentalised it so deeply that the details are lost. He doesn’t want to remember. The rumination has almost destroyed me yet I feel on some level it will be hard to fully come back from knowing the detail I know. Reconciling with the truth is hard. It’s impacted every corner of my life (OW was trying to befriend me at the same time as offering my H sexual favours)

I just have to keep on finding a way to live with it if my choice continues to be to stay. In spite of the detail, in spite of being surrounded by triggers and in spite of the gaps that still sometimes haunt me (and in spite of potentially running into the OW every day prob the thing that keeps this circus still alive)

Some of the ‘detail’ is a can of worms I never asked for.

[This message edited by Datura at 9:38 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)]

As a BS, I think our desperate need to connect dots and seek understanding gives us an insatiable appetite for facts. For me, it’s not the need to know facts, it’s the need to understand the story. I’ve heard the facts over and over, and the story has never waivered, but I can’t make sense of it. THATS what keeps me up at night. And it simply boils down to the fact that there is nothing logical about affairs. We can’t find logic in the illogical. While our logical brain is desperate for healing, the affair partners were broken, damaged, and not thinking. Making decisions that were completely illogical, and not meant to be made sense of.

I’ve come to realize peace has more power than answers. We must find peace with what we know. There will always be more info, more to question, more to process. But eventually, peace will set a BS free.

I’ve come to realize peace has more power than answers.

I would say that I am fortunate that my personality doesn't have to know every detail of my WW's infidelity. I needed to know what I needed to know....and being I wasn't being gaslit, it made things worlds easier at putting my mind to rest.

But the one thing that I KNOW I NEED is that any answer to any question is right at my fingertips(lips?)----all I have to do is ask....and the answer is immediate and honest.

The day that I don't believe the above with 100% certainty, is the day that my divorce process gets rolling. I have taken plenty of shit since I discovered infidelity, but in the aftermath, full honesty, or lack thereof, is my absolute dealbreaker.

We as betrayed have an incredibly developed sense of what’s true and false, what’s deceptive and what’s authentic. Until what we’re being told makes sense, where there are no gaps, no missing pieces, we continue to tear and rip at the fabric of our reality, trying to create some semblance of order, some sense out of the chaos we’ve been thrown into.

Think you've hit the nail on the head here Physics. What I find I have been struggling with lately is not really knowing what was fully said and done between WS and OW in order to make sense of the why. Especially since he's actually the one pushing for reconciliation.

The only way to mitigate this, to alleviate this perpetual and sometimes destructive obsession is to have our waywards completely, totally and openly tell us everything

The problem is, you can never reach this state of knowing everything, because there is an infinite amount of stuff to know. Every answer can lead to a hundred new questions. You can go down the rathole forever, as it is infinitely deep.

I agree that the WS must openly answer every question as long as they are asked, and the asking of questions is a critically important signal sent to the WS as to the insult you have suffered, so it is a two-way communication. You reserve the right to ask a question at any time, forever.

But once you get the truth of the big moving objects in the affair, you will eventually have to accept that it can’t all be known and turn away from the questions to them, and seek the answer to what you are really asking inside yourself.

Ultimately, I believe the real question is this:

How much uncertainty are you willing to live with?

It's in that uncertainty, in that reluctance (or inability) to divulge further details where we as the BS have to choose whether we will accept it or not.

I know what I believe to be some details that my wife has never admitted, whether by purpose or because she honestly doesn't remember. For me, I would see those details as something unforgettable, but my wife can't remember why I keep the DeWalt drill in the house and not the garage even though I tell her once a week. But I digress...

When it comes to the time our WS and the AP spent together, there were only 2 people there, and neither of them was us. We have to determine just how much "mystery" we are willing to accept, how much of the "unknown" will we forgive, how much "blank space" we will live with if we move the relationship, the recovery, and the R forward.

[This message edited by CaptainRogers at 6:49 AM, February 13th (Thursday)]

I was responding to you when SI went down.

I think you're doing yourself a disservice with this line of thinking.

First, as HoP says, you can't know the whole truth. Even if your WS remembers everything, there isn't enough time in the world to relate all the memories to you ... and no one remembers everything.

Second, you are making assumptions about your fellow BSes that are simply not warranted. For example, it took me months before I had confidence that I could distinguish truth from lies.

Third, if you want to heal, you need to focus on resolving your own pain and doing what you need to do to accomplish that.

Creating fanciful over-generalizations that make you a part of a class won;t help.

You were betrayed as an individual, and you can heal only as an individual.

*****

ETA: I can't figure out how to make the above less abrupt. My point is that you can recover without Reconciling, but you can do so only for yourself, and you must do it for yourself, taking into account your own individual characteristics, if you do it at all.

Over-generalizations waste time and energy. You don't need to be part of a group to need something from your W as a requirement for R. To succeed in R, you need to be in touch with yourself and go for what you want, even - especially - if you're unique.

Yes, we all need truth in order to R. But R will be easier to accomplish if your W decides to give the truth to you, Physics, than if she gives it to you, a BS. To R, she needs to love and be in love with you, not with the class of BSes.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:48 PM, February 15th (Saturday)]

Physics,

I think you’ve nailed it for me. I haven’t been able to start to reconcile with my WH because I don’t feel like he’s giving me the entire truth. I believe he thinks he’s done so much damage that giving me the truth will create more damage, when in reality him not being 100% transparent is what’s giving his A more life and not allowing me to begin to heal. After almost a year of this and him not being able to comprehend this his time is almost up!