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H and I were talking this morning. I asked if he had remembered to call for his IC this week, he usually goes on Fridays. New to this IC, he is our MC and h has just started seeing him for IC, maybe 3 times?

Anyway, he replied that he had decided not to go this week, he was too busy at work.

In my head I understand. In my gut it was a shot.

I tried to explain this conflict in myself to him. I realized that I have been closely watching his every action, looking for the positive actions and noting the inaction. I realized how when he does what I have asked for "he scores points", and when he doesn't it makes me question his commitment.

He became upset, "why can't you just say, thank you for planning for next week, I understand that you are working hard".

I tried to explain that I was just realizing how closely that I monitor his every action. I also said to him, "this sounds so harsh".

I was trying to let him know how I think now. If I don't tell him, how can he know? He could be thinking everything is fine and I am boiling inside. I don't think that would be honest or fair of me.

My intention was not to hurt him but to help him understand, let him know what happens inside me. If he doesn't know he could do things to hurt me and not even realize it.

He was upset with me. Told me that there are two people here and it isn't always about me and my pain. That he beats himself up enough without me beating him up. He told me that I think too much and not everything has to be a big emotional event.

I tried to explain that I was not just talking about the cancelled appointment. I was relating or trying to, that everytime he doesn't follow through, it makes me question his commitment. He said that makes him feel as if he doesn't follow through we will not make it. Unfortunately that is true.

I tried to explain the conflict between the rational thought in my head and the gut reaction. Not just about one appointment but about everything. I tried to explain that I was just recognizing how closely I observe his every action. It was actually a revelation to me, to realize how closely I was watching and using it to guage his commitment.

He wouldn't really hear me out. He wouldn't allow me to try to finish my thoughts to him.

I did not want to cause him to feel bad or feel guilt. Every time I would try to tell him I do appreciate what you do and that you are working a lot and that you are planning on making an appointment for next week.

I think maybe in a "normal" situation I would have over reacted to a missed appointment or any other small deviation from expectations.

It's just that now, at this time, everything means so much. I try to look at the big picture, not focus on the details. I was just trying to let him know that this happens in my gut, automatically, that in my head I understand but in my heart I panic.

I didn't get angry or say mean things to him. I told him I understand but I don't like it and when you make these decisions to please talk to me about it before you come to your decision.

Then I started realizing how it makes me feel as opposed to how I think. What automatic responses I have.

He said he doesn't need to hear it.

I just feel it is important to express these thought processes to each other. I wish he would tell me more of his.

Okay done with repetition, need to go to work. Just had to get this out or I would stew all day.

Any opinions? Was I too harsh? Did I tell him things that he doesn't need to hear from me? Could I have expressed it in a kinder way?

thanks for listening

Were you too harsh? Maybe on yourself! I don't get the sense that you were screaming or demeaning him over this issue. Let me quote some things your H said:

Anyway, he replied that he had decided not to go this week, he was too busy at work.

He decided w/o speaking to you first. Perhaps he could have said, "hey cantaccept, I am swamped at work this week and would like to book my IC for early next week. Will that work for you?" Would that have worked for you?

He became upset, "why can't you just say, thank you for planning for next week, I understand that you are working hard".

Thank him for what? Did he actually make next week's appointment or he is planning too? There is a diff. Why would you thank him? Going to IC is a MUST - a high cost behavior that you need to see in order to R.

Yes. WS needs to be recognized for the things they are doing well - and you did that very well last week when you poured your heart out and he responded with love and remorse. But this? He is asking you to thank him for planning on making an appt. for next week?

He was upset with me. Told me that there are two people here and it isn't always about me and my pain. That he beats himself up enough without me beating him up. He told me that I think too much and not everything has to be a big emotional event.

Actually. It is about you. It is about you and your ability to heal and when he makes selfish "poor me" statements that try to diminish what he has done that caused so much pain it hurts your R.

He wouldn't really hear me out. He wouldn't allow me to try to finish my thoughts to him.

This is not remorseful behavior, cantaccept.

Your H needs to get back to IC.

I hope you find some good today in the day - go for a walk, talk to a friendly co worker, have a cup of tea. You are a good person and you don't deserve to be spoken to this way. IMO, your H owes you another apology.

((cantaccept))

[This message edited by LA44 at 7:54 AM, October 24th (Thursday)]

What I have learned.

Men dont want to hear negative they dont want to.

I write everything down that bothers me. Make a list and try to reword to not I want or such. I also try to pick the most important message. He might do 30 things wrong but what is 1 of those I have to have changed.

Otherwise smile oh honey I know you work so hard to privide our lovely home. I understand you dont have time to work on our marriage and making US whole again. Make sure you smile say it with an upbeat voice. Do not cry do not say it condenscending. He will get it without saying anything else. If not well he needs alot if MC!

Give him a big ole ATA BOY hug goodbye kiss whatever. Sure you are steaming they dont care they are tired of them being wrong of them not being able to make the right choices etc give him choices I know I know just like children

I don't think you were harsh at all.

You say you tried to explain to your FWH why you feel like you do and it sounds like he shot you down!!

He got angry; he said he feels like you are watching his every action (heck-yes!!) then hewas upset with you and then he wouldn't hear you out?

I am sorry but all of these things so early on show how much he NEEDS IC!

In my own situation my FWH put IC above and before his work. That meant so much to me as before all this it used to be him- his job- his sports- then the family

He would not have dreamed of cancelling a session as he knew how important it was for him as an individual but also how important it was to remain M to me!!

If he was so bogged down with work then the answer would have been to (1) Rearrange his work schedule or (2) Discuss it with you first.

Him making unilateral decisions so early on? Wayward thinking still.

I hope he apologises and realises that by making a unilateral decision he has messed up. I suspect he already does which is why he tried so hard to slap you down and shut that discussion down so quickly.

Sorry if this sounds harsh- I don't mean it to be. I just wish our spouses would "get it" a bit sooner sometimes... as that makes R easier and leads to a happier spouse

Thanks all for the responses.

I was wondering if it was or is his guilt that makes him respond this way.

I was never this way before, questioning everything, looking for proof of commitment. Sometimes it shocks me how much I have changed. I don't like this suspicious, judgemental side of the new me.

Maybe that is what I needed him to see. These changes in me aren't necessarily what I want, what I choose, they just are.

Some changes are positive, some are not. I hope with time and consistency from him I will relax and not have this suspicious brain.

I don't like this part of me but I suppose it is only natural at this time. I am trying to love and trust the man that threw me away for another. I am looking for proof that the love and commitment are real. If I wasn't questioning that would probably not be very healthy for me.

These new ways of thinking are just the consequences to his actions. The actions that I had no choice in, the actions that I have to recover from that I did not cause.

These are part of the consequences for him too. He is feeling the consequences from his actions. Simply cause and effect.

I think that if he can see and accept that this is just how it is now it might be easier for both of us.

(((Cant)))

Too Harsh, Hardly. He sounds like he was having a self made pity party, and then you joined in, pointing out the reasons he should have had one in the first place. Yah he is getting to the core issue, and it sucks, and makes him feel lousy about himself, hisM, his life. But NONE of that is your fault, and for him to blame you, make you feel bad for saying what you are feeling, and calling him out when he is avoiding is unacceptable.

You need to have a serious discussion about this at MC. He needs to understand that he will feel bad, and should, and that is not your fault, and that your trust, was completely broken by him. It is now his job to step up to the plate, and own it, and do the real work on himself, so he understands, and fixes what is broken in him. Until that happens your M will not be repaired.

You were perfectly fine letting him know what it made you feel, and why. If he can't hear it, or won't accept that then he doesn't get it.

((((and strength))))

This was nothing more than your basic unremorseful reaction. He got angry, got defensive and pushed it all back on you. It is his way of getting you to back off and shut up. He makes you doubt yourself and your rights in the relationship. And it works. Now you aren't liking this new version of yourself (the one that stands up for yourself) and doubting.

He should have clearly communicated this change to you. Period. He is in the wrong. Not you.

This is why SI is so important to me.

I am really fighting so hard to stand up for myself, yes the new version of me. It feels uncomfortable, it sometimes feels selfish, it sometimes just feels plain wrong.

I felt like I was doing the right thing for me, for us, being honest and open. That is necessary, essential.

I felt that I was not being mean or trying to guilt him. I wondered though, am I being too harsh, is it too much. These thoughts creep in, this change is so new. One of the things I worry about is going too far to the other extreme. Being too demanding, expecting too much, being insensitive.

Yes, I think the feelings of guilt and anger were because he was experiencing the consequences. These are just the consequences to his actions. I did not cause he consequences. His actions have caused these changes in me. Some good, some bad. His actions now determine how good or bad my response is now for him.

I control me, I control my actions and responses. If I feel that he is doing everything that I need, going above and beyond to prove his commitment, to disprove his prior statements to me, which he had no problem stating with such clarity by his actions, choosing another woman, abandoning me, then I will be able, will allow myself to respond in a loving and trusting way. In short I think I need him to earn my forgiveness, to earn my loving expressions. I do love him, but at this time, I do not trust him to follow through, I do not feel that total commitment.

I keep coming back to the thought, "if you really loved me, if you really wanted me back more than anything, if you truly felt remorseful, you would do anything, even if it made you uncomfortable, even if it made you feel hurt, because you would be able to see that for a time you need to put me above you, you need to make me feel like I am the priority in your life, you need to try your best to undo some of the damage that your choices caused".

No. People MAKE time for what is important to them.

A person who could make time for all the machinations surrounding an A, can certainly make time for IC.

That is how I feel, if it were really important he would make the time.

Choose to read over tv.

Figure out ahead of time that a morning appointment with IC won't work but a 7pm would.

There are ways to do the things that are really important. If it is important it is your first priority.

It seems that if he talks to me that is him putting in his time.

That is how all this makes me feel he is doing this to keep me quiet. He isn't doing it because it is important to him. Some of it is but not all.

I feel like if he really understood, accepted how hard this is for me, how much I have to struggle because of what he did, accepted the responsibility and cared about me, he would do whatever it took as soon as possible and not make me feel one more day of pain than is necessary. If I hurt him and I knew what I could do to ease that burden, I wouldn't be able to do it fast enough.

He needs to commit himself to IC for it to be effective. If it's something to do only when it's convenient, change will be very difficult and maybe impossible.

He can probably make appointments very easily - just set up a standing appointment with his IC - same time, same place, same attendees, every week. Set up a recurring meeting in his calendar, including travel time. Piece of cake. All it takes is 5 minutes out of one session, unless his IC's schedule is so effed up he doesn't have a standard opening every week.

I understand the difficulty of committing to IC, but it's essential - unless he's not really committed to R.

He has a standing appointment for Friday at 8am. He only needs to confirm it on Monday at MC. This past Monday we were talking till the very last moment and it was forgotten.

A phone call or text would have taken care of it.

Apparently he decided two days ago to not go this week.

He didn't tell me until this morning. That tells me he knew it would not sit well with me so he avoided it until I asked.

[This message edited by cantaccept at 2:04 PM, October 24th (Thursday)]

These are part of the consequences for him too. He is feeling the consequences from his actions. Simply cause and effect.

Respectfully - that isn't what he is feeling. He is feeling like he is being treated like a child, and he is.

I know - I'm completely in the minority here. That's ok. Please hear me out:

Your husband cheated. Mine cheated. Did they lose trust? Yes. Do they need to show remorse and make sure that we see that in their actions and their words? Yes. Do we now own them and they became children that need to discuss every action with us because we were wronged? No.

I'm sorry - I'm not meaning to be insulting so I hope no one is taking it this way. Yes, you should express your feelings, but perhaps not the second you have them? It's been a year. Is he ever given the benefit of the doubt? Has he, other than missing one IC appointment, given you reason to doubt his remorsefulness?

Yes, everyone here told you that you did the right thing - that he isn't remorseful - that he's lucky he's even still married. Really? This is a grown man we are discussing. He didn't keep one appointment.

Yes - some husbands make this the center of their world. Your H isn't. He is trying his best but his life did not become about him cheating. He doesn't want your life to become that, and it sounds like it has.

One thing we BSs learn right away is that it is ALL ABOUT US. We need to heal. We need to see remorse. We need whatever the hell we decide that day. And yes, we do need all that - but not for life. At some point, a WS will push back if they feel that there is no end to this. And they should, because at some point it is no longer consequences to actions - it is the new marriage, and it isn't good for either party. At some point, we have to begin behaving more 'normal'. We have to stop expressing every little item that makes us feel slighted, or unloved, or even uneasy.

Now, if your H was at a strip club? You bet your ass - you do what you need to do. But he canceled an appointment without checking first. He wants a wife, not a mother.

If we behave like a JFO BS forever, eventually the WS will leave. Harsh, I know, but no one wants to live under the shadow of the worst thing they ever did forever.

I know - it's only a year, and healing takes 2 to 5. I understand, I'm still working on it myself. But at a year, shouldn't some progress be made? Shouldn't the WS be a little more trustworthy? Shouldn't they get to behave like an adult, and not an adulterer?

I know - I'm wrong by many standards here. We are all very used to just saying the BS is wrong, and we were hurt, so they need to do what we need. Well, is discussing an appointment really a need to heal, or do you just like being a little in control of every aspect of his life?

Not trying to be harsh on anyone. Just hopefully someone will see a little of what I'm saying and try to get out of the "I'm a BS" mode 24/7 and maybe just be a "S" some of the time.

mitake

[This message edited by boots5050 at 2:36 PM, October 24th (Thursday)]

Paifulpast, I think you are not familiar with cantaccpet's story. She is fighting a very unremorseful spouse, who only recently started IC. She's been through the wringer. And he still doesn't get it.

You are right - I posted based on a remorseful spouse that had been doing the work.

cantaccept - my post clearly does not fit your story. I apologize if I made you feel badly for dealing with a spouse that only now is making an effort.

Thank you rebreather.

*hat tip

Thank you for that PPP.

I saw the post and was logged out. I logged in quickly typed a long reply, submitted it and then realized that I had hit h's log in (he has it saved)

I deleted it because I didn't want anyone to think he had written it.

That he has not expressed much remorse was the point but of course not that succinctly. He even admits that he has not expressed this to me properly.

I want to open my heart to him. I want to forgive. I want to move past.

He needs to make a big effort.

I am trying so hard to be clear, honest and protect myself without hurting him.

He needs to make a big effort.

YES!!

He does. Again, I'm so sorry. I honestly saw the dates and thought that it had been a year of a remorseful spouse. I took that from your post, although in hindsight don't ask me why.

No - if he's just starting to make you feel safe and believe that he is actually remorseful and willing to do the work, then his IC IS a big deal, and it wouldn't have taken much to ask you first, or should I say - discuss with you first - his workload and the possibility of missing an appointment.

I really feel badly that I said what I said in this post - your post. I very recently was discussing something very similar - I do need to be a little more familiar with the individual.

My DDay was nearly 3 years ago. I'm new here, but not to the infidelity thing, so sometimes I can get ahead of myself.

cantaccept, you seem really very sweet and forgiving, much more so than I am. I hope your husband 'gets it' a little more than he has to this point.

I hope I do as well. Again, apologies.

I may be overly jaded as I write, so take this with a few grains of salt.

If he has to call to confirm 8 AM on Fridays, it's not a standing appointment.

I recommend changing his protocol - it's a full commitment unless he calls to cancel. And if he calls too late, he's on the hook to pay his C. Isn't that how most medical appointments work?

Among other things, he really ought to see IC as an investment in himself. He needs to do this for himself, not for you. If he's just going through the motions with IC, fire your H.

*****************

Since he's using his work to dodge IC, I urge you to adopt business metrics. Don't to settle for effort. Demand results.

He's an adult human being, not a little boy, and he's not a Victim. He can do what need to be done.