SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Things have been going well. As well as can be expected 15 months since the world as I knew it was turned upside down and shaken like a snow globe.

What remains is a difficulty in wrapping my head around the thinking going on in fWH's mind to rationalize and justify his affairs. He says once it got going, he thought he could do anything and not get caught. He was untouchable. He was above the rules. He was all powerful and the thrill of doing something illicit and wrong was very appealing and kept the fantasy alive. His IC told him he was grandiose. And we've already discovered his difficulties with empathy.

I just can't find a way to accept that someone can simply make up a fantasy and live it out for several years. It's like I'm smacking up against a brick wall. Each time I start to think that maybe I have some inkling of how he could talk himself into all that he did, I just as quickly shake my head in disbelief.

He wasn't insane. He wasn't psychotic. He was an otherwise rational person who created and lived two separate lives. Once he got caught and his fantasy world imploded, he now looks back in disgust. He is committed today to living an honest life. He likes not having secrets. Likes not having to keep his lies straight. Likes that he is living a decent life and not lying, cheating, manipulating and being the "asshole" he knows he was during that time (and before -- personality issues in place to a lesser degree before A season kicked in).

I know I've touched on this before, but I'm still not getting it. Can someone please give me your take on this? How do you come to terms with this? How do you explain it to yourself in a way that it "makes sense"? Is their use of the "fantasy" explanation a justification? A handy excuse to explain away otherwise horrible behavior? If so, can the same person who allows himself to believe what he did during his affairs (he was entitled, he was getting what was "owed" him by a world he felt had screwed him over, recapturing his youth, and a bunch of shit like that) be a person who today can truly NOT believe those things again?

I'm trained in psychology and still can't find a way to settle this in my mind. Maybe an analogy that you've used to help? I don't know . . . I'm just looking for some help with this.

Well I'm sure you have been told before that you will never truly understand. I rushed around like so many of us after Dday looking for some understanding, the "why" that was going to somehow make the pain less. Didn't find it.

And I found out that my H had CSA, from which one can pretty much draw a straight line to his later behaviors. But it still didn't excuse him or take the pain away.

But I do have "Catlover's law". My belief is that the second strongest impulse in human nature (after the maternal/paternal instinct) is the ability to rationalize something that we think is in our best interest ("best" of course). People have done it since there were people. Source of most evil, IMHO. "My job doesn't pay me well, I deserve to take a little from the till", "I drive better when I'm drunk", "she asked for it with her short skirt", "my wife doesn't understand me" ad nauseum. The vast majority of people who behave badly think they are good people, but they have applied this skill. My H winced when I called him a liar and a cheater ---"I never thought of myself that way." REALLY??

Deep inside people know the truth. But the longer they lie to themselves the more they are convinced. Some can truly compartmentalize or even disassociate. But usually they want to believe, so they do.

We do it too, as BSs. I struggle with making sure I'm looking at things clear eyed during this process. SI helps.

I think that the cognitive dissonance does probably wear at a person, and there can be psychic relief when they stop. And that a person can learn to be honest with themselves. But it's a lifelong battle.

Good luck!

Thank you, catlover

But it's a lifelong battle.

This troubles me on both ends. HIS, because it means he may always have to wage a war against the evil that lurks within, and MINE, because I may always struggle and wrestle with this beast.

Better to plan for the worst, right? I think I just need to chew on this a while longer. As you say, it likely will never make sense in the way I'd like it to. But with my "mathematician" brain, maybe at some point I'll feel I've solved the problem to the best of my ability and find a way to let it go.

I think the vigilance and focus on this is also a way to keep things alive . . . . I'm not yet ready to put it to rest, to allow fWH the luxury of believing the worst is behind him. A small step back (as this feels to be) usually is followed by a larger step forward in my situation.

[This message edited by psychmom at 3:02 PM, December 30th (Wednesday)]

psychmom-

I enjoy your posts. I feel that we are kindred spirits, both in dday as well as in professions. I am a clinical social worker and have worked as a therapist and as a professor.

In spite of this, I too, can't wrap my head around where his mind was during the A. I have continuously struggled with "how could you do that with her and then come home to me, waiting for you with a smile and a nice dinner?". WH honestly can't come up with anything better than it was an illness. He compares it to a cancer-he had experienced a traumatic job loss, was hired by this woman, and then watched her be fired from her job. He initially wanted to help...BUT, and this is where it gets tricky for me. He never told me when they would meet. Hence, the affair started on that very slippery slope. He continues to rationalize that he never "meant" for it to happen, never "meant" to have sex with her. Whatever, I don't get it and some days I am able to be ok with the reality that I never will. Other days, I go into pure panic and rage-how dare he? How dare he get to live out a fantasy life, if only for a short time? To escape from reality while I was home, working, taking care of the home, family. So damn selfish.

He has told me that he was so low during this time that he wanted to kill himself. That he was searching to feel...feel anything. I can understand that intellectually and through my training. But my heart continues to scream. While he was out "saving himself" he was blowing up my world. I don't think I will ever be able to fully understand that.

Like catlover stated, I think as BSes, we also do a bit of compartmentalization. I have found myself saying "well, at least he didn't spend the night...at least he didn't spend $$ on her...at least..." The reality is that it was as bad as it could be-he brought her to our home, twice. He lied. He cheated. He stole valuable time from me and from my children. He put us at risk and emotionally and psychologically vacated the premises.

I do know he struggled during the A with the fact that he was doing it-sounds so trite, I know. He "wanted" to get caught. Started leaving his phone out, never changed his password, things like that. Very passively was crying out for me to stop it-he had no clue (and again, I struggle with this) just how much he would devastate me with his actions. Maybe in that statement alone is part of the answer. Maybe by thinking so little of themselves, by thinking we would not be nearly as hurt, devastated, crushed, traumatized because how could we if we "cared" so little since they cared so little about themselves, they could rationalize the act itself.

Not sure this is helpful. But I hear you - your posts have been very helpful to me. Thank you and peace be with you during this time.

I asked that question many times, I don't think there is a good answer. I also asked what did I do to make my husband hate me so much that he did something that would hurt me so badly. Same for AP, she was supposedly a "friend".

My WH said he was a selfish dumb ass. I have to agree with that.

I think of it like drug addiction. Studies have shown that infatuation (the fog) affects the brain much like cocaine does. So the drug addict analogy fits pretty well. Also, in addiction, one of the effects is that the portion of the brain responsible for rational decision making, the pre-frontal cortex, gets in the way of the stupid decisions the addict makes, so the brain learns to ROUTE AROUND IT, like an addict avoiding people that will hamper getting their fix. I also think this fits with how some remorseful Waywards look back on their horrible behavior.

psychmom, you know me well enough to know that one thing I really, really hate, loath and abhor in this world is not being able to understand something.

I've banged my head against a wall for months trying to understand why/how my wife could have done what she did and I keep coming back to the same old problem: I can't comprehend the incomprehensible.

There's no justification for infidelity. If it can't be justified, how the hell can it be explained? It's like trying to explain the truth of a lie.

It's irrational!!! Get over it!

It's like those numbers in mathematics that are irrational but serve a purpose. What?!

Maybe there's another way to look at this problem of not understanding the wayward mind during an affair. If you had cheated on your husband with three different OM over a two and half year period of time, lying and deceiving all the while, how easily would you believe it that your husband was not only willing, but actually trying really hard, to reconcile your marriage?

I frequently ask people on this board to help me to understand the BS's mind--my own mind/heart--after the affair and I'm still pretty fucking baffled as far as that goes. You know?

ETA: Maybe they cheat because seeking cheap and easy validation outside of reality is far easier than facing reality.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 3:58 PM, December 30th (Wednesday)]

Psychmom, my brain sounds like yours: logical-mathematical. I have recently come to what I think is the logical conclusion that sense can't be made of the senseless. In my quest for the answers to "why" I have learned what 3 psychologists (my WH's, my former and my current therapists) have been impressing upon me, and that is that intellectual understanding won't help with emotional healing. They were mostly correct. Some of the "whys" have helped me to feel better about the prognosis for R and to know that the A wasn't about me, but rather about my WH's unresolved FOO issues and his addictions, two of which began to spiral out of control after the death of WH's Dad. However, I have to at some point accept that although we were in counseling for years prior to and during his Dad's death and his A's, he was never "all-in." Not until he hit rock bottom. He unconsciously destroyed our M and me because without some major crisis, he was never going to address his issues. All of this is easy for me to understand intellectually, but accepting it and trying to make emotional sense of it hasn't happened yet.

I don't get it either. If you ever get a possible explanation(s) please post them.

I don't have any "at leasts..." It's all shit.

I am exactly where phychmom is....I don't understand. I don't think I ever will and I will have to learn to live with it. I guess its like trying to understand the rationale of serial killers or suicide bombers etc....not that its the same thing but rationally, i can't comprehend any of it.

I have to call bullshit (BS means something else here...) about the addiction aspect of infatuation. Google John Salamone dopamine and read for yourself. Being infatuated with someone isn't going to cause your brain to be flooded with chemicals that make you do things against your better judgement. That's pretty damn absurd if you stop and think about it. I really like oatmeal cookies. I get a shot of dopamine everytime I eat one, yes boys and girls dopamine isn't just for cocaine, cookies, or sex. Despite this all powerful substance in my bloodstream, I'm able to have some self control and not gorge myself until I puke on delicious cookies. I don't even have to eat them everyday. Let's not kid ourselves here. Cheaters know what they are doing is wrong. That's why they lie, deceive, and cover their tracks. They rationalize bad behavior just like any other unethical person. Which roundabouts this back to some sort of character flaw in our beloved spouses. It's easier to think they were driven temporarily insane by some nefarious neurotransmitter versus admitting that they are (were) shitty people making shitty choices. They cheated because they wanted to. They lied to keep you in place for financial, family, reputation, and career reasons. Extra sex, validation from the opposite sex feels good. They're special don't ya know, something that grand must be shared with others. One simply won't do. They deserve more. Affairs are fun when they are happening. That's why they happen for days\weeks\months\years. Sure they regret it now. They fucking got caught. They can demonstrate remorse, disgust, and grovel at the feet of the person they were willing to risk losing because they got that dopamine monkey off their back and they see shit clearly now. It's really difficult to rationalize wanting to R with someone that caused you untold amounts of pain. The affair fog dopamine notion gives us some wiggle room thinking there were forces at work beyond our cheater's control. Unfortunately, the more I read about it the less I can buy into the fog theory.

Psychmom, you sound like you're in a place much like me. Your wayward is doing everything they can, you even see actions to back up words. They could even possibly be a good partner from now on. Except. Yep, that word. Except something just seems off about the relationship now. Something is amiss. There are little thoughts buzzing around in your head. Uncertainties. You need to understand why this happened. You think maybe that knowledge will bring you some sort of peace. There must be something that caused all of this turmoil. I've been down that road myself, hence the dopamine research above. I'll try to save you some time and grief: there is no grand answer or insight that will make you feel better about your husband's affair. I would like to think people can change their character. I don't think that is an easy undertaking. From what I've seen, I also don't think most waywards have what it takes to do it. I'm in the position where I need to leave or settle for something less than. It sucks and I'm not sure what to do. I do hope you find peace.

I have to call bullshit (BS means something else here...) about the addiction aspect of infatuation. Google John Salamone dopamine and read for yourself. Being infatuated with someone isn't going to cause your brain to be flooded with chemicals that make you do things against your better judgement. That's pretty damn absurd if you stop and think about it.

^^^^^

This...is so right. I am sick of hearing about the "addiction" the dopamine aspect of the infatuation...the comparison to cocaine.

Very good insights and solid responses from all. Thank you!

devastatedone- I can relate to the low self esteem, feeling shitty about himself and his life piece which seemed to be a prelude to his affairs. Okay, so he hates himself, hates his shitty life. Along comes someone who bats her eyes at him and tells him he's a pretty swell fella. Sorta handsome, and hey, wanta buy some dope? So add in some serious alcohol use and illicit drug use for good measure. NOW he's a REAL bad boy! Getting close to 50? HELL NO! He's going to wear his baseball cap backward, put in the ear buds and sway to the latest cool tunes. All with the young hottie half his age who won't fuck him, but sure enjoys a free lunch and a few gifts now and then.

Somehow this slides into the first PA, and eventually a 2nd after the first one ended (gotta hand it to the guy for not cheating on his APs!) And it is during these 2+ years when the attention became all consuming, the "game" and chase kicked in and life didn't seem so bland and boring anymore. I GET this at an intellectual level, but it reads like a bad teen horror flick! Looks stupid on film and CANNOT possibly be anything close to real life. Right?

Icewraithonyx- I like the addition of neuroscience to this mix. Lizard brain overrides more evolved cortical brain. That may be a mechanism, but still doesn't offer me the elusive piece I search for.

Unhinged- As always, thank you! All the rationalizations were there for him including: "she doesn't love me" and "since no one will find out, no one will get hurt". Yes, the attention he got was offered freely and without much effort on his part. Admitting to how messed up our marriage was (before and during his affairs) and choosing to try to work to fix that? The choice is rather easy when viewed that way. BUT, then why does he want to do the work now? Have things REALLY changed that much that NOW he wants to push up his sleeves and start slopping the hogs? (not sure why hogs showed up here!)

stayedforthekids- Your truth speaks loudest to me. And it's a scary realization: cheaters cheat because they want to. Plain and simple. No rationalizations, no minimizing. Simply because they WANT to, BELIEVE they can get away with it, and are willing to risk it all for a little rush of dopamine Or at least for the kick of having someone new fawn over them, help them forget how sad and pathetic they may actually be in real life.

Sure, once caught they feel remorse, shame, and vow that they've seen the light. Never want to go back THERE! HATE the person they were. Of course they do, and then wonder why WE struggle so hard to trust them, to respect them again, to see them as the loving partners they now want to believe they are.

I'll try to save you some time and grief: there is no grand answer or insight that will make you feel better about your husband's affair.

That is also what he is telling me. There is no way to twist things, no new insights that will lessen the pain, lessen the load of shit he's dropped into my world and the world of our family. All he can offer is (a) a promise that he WILL NEVER EVER EVER cheat or betray me in any of the ways we now view betrayal, and (b) his daily efforts to show me through deeds that he is trying to make amends for the pain and devastation he's brought to me, and also to himself.

So he's doing IC, has started projects at home (his love language is doing things - gestures), total NC, allows me to verbally beat him up now and again (not always with a smile on his face, and after 15 months his patience wears thin on some days). He says it's all he can do. The past can't be changed. I have to simply accept the reality and (hopefully for him) choose to continue to work to put the past to rest.

So while I still don't have "the answer", I feel I'm inching closer to my place of acceptance. I find that I still need him to go through this with me, and get to the sweet spot where he is soft and open and reminds me of all the many ways that life with me now, with the changes we're making, is far, far better than anything he had before. It was a sad substitute for the authentic type relationship we are working to build now. I appreciate all that. Yet I look at him at times and the blackness comes over me as I again struggle to "make sense of the nonsensical".

I appreciate all of your comments and the opportunity to get your perpectives on this.

The whole "I never thought I'd get caught" hardly seems like a reason to cheat. I think I could ensure I wouldn't get caught slitting the throat of a neighbor's goat, but that's hardly motivational.

To me, "I never thought I'd get caught" is not a reason to cheat, as it is a minor part of a flimsy rationale for hurting someone on the deepest level.

[This message edited by Husburned at 5:25 AM, December 31st (Thursday)]

then why does he want to do the work now?

Oh, pyschmom! That's an easy question to answer. Because you're an amazing, extraordinary, courageous, intelligent, strong, thoughtful woman and if you're willing to give him a second chance, by golly, hogs aside, it's worth the effort.

Why indeed?!

I have a male friend I speak to often. We often speak about relationships and infidelity. He had told me over and over that most people cheat simply because they want to. That's it. The whole reason. He says as a man, my ex probably just wanted variety. (I was unwillingly and unknowingly the ow in a previous relationship. I Left as soon as I found out and told her). My friend used to be a terrible boyfriend and would cheat on girlfriends left and right. Once he decided to marry, he has been faithful.

People cheat simply because they are selfish, feel entitled to have more, want a little excitement and because they want to.

Knowing this, helps me avoid those type of people in the future. I no longer look for so many whys. All it did was keep the whole thing in my head and I wanted to break free from it. I hope I've helped a little.

My WS's willingness to leave this house so many times under false pretenses will always bother me . . . it is not okay that time, energy, support, comfort, etc. were given freely and willingly to someone who was not WS's to give it to. The fact that my wife went looking outside of us for any needs to be met, social, emotional or otherwise, is a bitter, bitter pill to swallow. It is as if she invited the OW into our home for a time, and I felt her presence even before D-Day . . . I knew something was zapping my energy right out from under me. I felt that drain. In some ways it feels as if she is still draining my energy.

I don't think my WS will ever understand the depth of what this has done to me . . .

[This message edited by OneInTheSame at 1:41 PM, December 31st (Thursday)]

I have questioned this dopamine effect, the high, the addiction, as well. I have googled John Salamone and down loaded it but haven't yet read it.

I was curious about smoking. That is why I tried my first cigarette - how did it feel, taste, etc. I didn't become addicted until after several cigarettes (32 years smoke free, now). I wondered about beer before I had my first beer. That is why I had my first beer. I didn't know I liked beer until after I had a few (11 hours beer free).

You need to already be in a place or willing or wondering or curious or have heard how good it is or whatever before you test the waters. You were willing to take the first hit of cocaine and you didn't know you would get a high from it until after the first hit. You might have heard that you would, others had exclaimed about how great it was, you felt pressured to "get with it", whatever.

Maybe there is a dopamine effect, a high with adultery. But you don't know that until you have made some moves towards adultery. Some form of adultery happened before dopamine. There was a willingness, curiousity, selfishness, some crossing of lines or boundaries before any dopamine or high. Some form of adultery occurred before any high happened. There was a willingness to cross boundaries to start with.

JMO.

This is a great thread and I can so relate. 2+ years of A and why?? I have asked that question over and over. Started with "Thought you didn't love me any more" and " I thought you didn't need me" to "I was a selfish asshole" and "I was in a really bad place in my life" to now "I just don't know. none of my reasons make any sense to me any more"

I guess I just have to accept that yes, he was an asshole, I will never really know or understand why (I am a math teacher and I cannot wrap my brain around that!!), and I just have to see that his actions now are what I need to get. I know we all mess things up in life, but that was a biggie. I also know that in return, he will never get the extent of my hurt. You guys here know, but he will never truly understand how badly he hurt me. He thinks he does. He wants me to be happy buy I have told him over and over that the consequence of his actions is my pain. Can he live with that?

The bigger question for me is, how can I live with that. How do I still love this man after what he did to me (or in spite of me I guess). Why is this not a deal breaker? I must still see some good in him and his actions tell me he really wants to make this up to me.

Not understanding something and just accepting is difficult. Years and years of him asking me to be sure to tell him first if I no longer love him, rather than just having an affair and he does this? I just really don't get it. My H has always had addictive qualities and has very low self esteem. Top that all off with all the excuses he made to himself about me and my feelings for him, and a woman on FB who was willing to start an EA then progress to an PA (she has had 3 failed marriages and was not looking for anything full time. So hey, she will just take a married man so things don't have to get complicated)

Sorry, not meaning to be a thread jack. All of this just hits home with me and I feel that I must just let go of the trying to understand.

I don't know why anyone would use the word fantasy to describe something that is actually happening.

WS sneak around and lie like teenagers trying to get by with doing things they shouldn't. Teenagers feel big and bad and think they are smarter than their parents. They like the thrill of doing things they shouldn't too. No one suggests that rebellious teens are living a fantasy. They are just being bad.

Like teenagers who have been busted, WS make up,all kinds of crap to justify the bad behavior. The truth is they just wanted to. They wanted to break away from their regular life and do,something bad for a while.

What is the fantasy part? If you are actually having sex with someone. If you are actually cheating you are not just dreaming about it. No matter how you rationalize it, the behavior was real. He knew exactly what he was doing. Afterwards, he just doesn't want to get grounded.