SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Could I get some thoughts...

My thoughts are choppy, today is a tough day on the roller coaster.

My WW wife was caught with information about PA#2 on 1/13/2017. She had met him in Jan 2016 and exchanged phone numbers during a time we were separated by her choice (which was supported by two IC's at the time). OM#2 contacted her in August and they started texting and sending pics. In December, OM#2 contacted her and they arranged to me at a resturant with WW's cousin (the cousin has since been exposed as WW as well) present. WW went to his house but the story is that they only kissed because she had a bout of guilt and he sent her to her cousin's house via Uber. I still deal with resentment for that and WW taking off her rings. In March 2016, my WW decided she wanted to reengage in the marriage. Her IC would not advocate my access to her phone and WW continued trips to see this cousin who I didn't like or trust. OM#2 was 7 years younger.

Evidence of OM#3 was found out after I searched emails on 1/16/17. She met him at the gym. OM#3 is about 15 years younger. They had sex in our mini-van from Sept 2016 to Jan 2/2017. He would snap chat and ask if she was available and off she would go.

Current SA IC concepts basically align with what we have here on SI.

Ok, I think that is a good start. I think my emotions are obvious to anyone dealing with one DDay. I am trying to process my thoughts. She abused times when I was at work. Met OM#2 between taking kids to sports. There is nothing safe left, no safe place.

WW has been "diagnosed" with SA. I have full access to her phone. She checks in. See an SA IC weekly. Takes responsibilty for all of it. Says sorry all the time. Says she realizes it was wrong. I will do things that I did after finding out about OM#1 and she is told "yup, that is normal" by the SA IC versus what we originally had where IC was telling me I was abusive and needed to own my feelings. WW is planning to tell her parents about the latest affairs this weekend.

So, is this something to build on? Is this an addiction that I can live with if she is getting help? What does that help and oversight look like? Or do I just cut bait and run. We have 3 kids who have been minimally impacted.

I just don't understand that she can say she loves me and she seems to believe it. I'll leave it at that and add from there. Thanks in advance.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 11:48 AM, March 3rd (Friday)]

Abusers frequently love their spouse, both before and after they strike them.

Your dilemma leads to two questions:

1. Does she love you?

2. Does she cause you to feel loved?

Whether she loves you or not is irrelevant. Whether or not she can love you in the ways that you feel loved is what is important.

So...what ways do you feel love? Is sexual fidelity on that list?

Answer question number two you will have your answer.

'

I'm sorry you are dealing with this. Mind blowing stuff and makes you feel inadequate.

[This message edited by SilverLinings55 at 1:29 PM, January 26th (Friday)]

Welcome to a club no one wants to join. I'm the wife of an SA in long term recovery. Female SAs don't seem to identify themselves as often as men. Not sure why that is.

SA is very complex. It's good she is seeing a CSAT and seems remorseful. But sobriety and shame don't add up to recovery. It's just the beginning.

My advice to you is to focus on yourself. You have no control over her and her choices. Make no excuses for her cheating, SA is an Addiction but it isn't carte blanche for cheating and abusing you. Read as much as you can about SA, and join us in the I Can Relate forum, Spouses of Sex Addicts.

You can recover. She can recover. Your marriage can be rebuilt. But it's a long process and isn't linear. And it's filled with additional frustration for you, I'm afraid.

I'm so sorry you are here.

Thanks Silverlinings. I'm sorry you are going through this as well.

Thanks for the insight FarSide. I need to think about your comment for a bit. It's has a lot of layers and is actually nice because it is occupying my mind.

Thanks scaredyKat. I'll take a look.

WW keeps crying and begging for time to prove that she can change.

My WW is also begging and pleading, although less so than right after dday (February 13, came home from work early to find OM in my bedroom and they were desperately scrambling to get dressed because they must've heard me).

To show the total and complete lack of remorse on her part, she used the fact that I said - in the immediate aftermath of dday - that I found this to be insurmountable as a "why not" and met the OM at a bar the day after dday. Doesn't really show any remorse at all.

Be wary of what I'm going through - Me and my family have been her only support for years, and I put her through grad school, pay all the rent, have allowed her to live a comfortable suburban life (she grew up poor and no one in her family has resources), so she's desperate. She was living the life, doing whatever the EFF she wanted while experiencing the type of security she may never have expected to have.

As a result, even if I felt there was any reasonable chance of R with her (which seems absurd to me at this time), I'd never be able to tell whether she actually wanted R or was just terrified of losing everything she's been given.

Not sure if your situation is similar in terms of how badly you've been used as an unappreciated stepping stone by your WW, but the general principle might still be at play regardless, that she has enjoyed her OM while having the security of a nice husband at home, and now that stability / "normal" way of life is threatened. Does she love you or is she merely afraid of losing whatever lifestyle she's become accustomed to. Nearly impossible to discern in my case.

It sounds a bit like hocus pocus.

I think if you stay with a cheater, the next time is on you.

I don't understand staying after d-day 2.

Can ICs be sued for malpractice?

Do ICs have any accountability?

She checks in. See an SA IC weekly. Takes responsibility for all of it. Says sorry all the time. Says she realizes it was wrong.

This is tablestakes. It's all a vast improvement from where you've been, but it is just a starting point. For being only 2 months in to a SA diagnosis, this is a decent start, but she has a ways to go yet and a lifetime to be vigilant in order to maintain her sobriety.

So, is this something to build on?

It definitely can be. What you will need to be looking for is a deep change of heart and mind within her and that is best evidenced by her attitude and actions. Is she self-motivated to want to see her IC? Does she sense the gravity of the situation with your marriage, but even more importantly with herself? Does she eventually come to a point of seeing that she is broken? Does that motivate her to dig into herself even more to figure out why that is? Does she then do the hard work of sorting out where her character gap came from and then work at changing herself from the inside?

I just don't understand that she can say she loves me and she seems to believe it.

Eventually she will need to come to the point where she sees that love is much more than the shallow definition she has had of it. It is part of the process of seeing that she is broken. Betraying you was totally self-centered and her actions were manipulative and deceitful -- that is not love. She may have "loved" that you provided for her, that you gave her kids, that you are kind, etc., but that is all self-centered. She will need to see that she wasn't loving you in the midst of having affairs and that even outside of those times that her thoughts of "love" weren't mature or accurate.

What does that help and oversight look like?

She has to want to do the work. Period. You can't fix her. Her IC, no matter how skilled in SA matters, can't fix her. Your wife has to want to change AND do the work. No matter how much help and oversight is provided, it is still her decision.

If she wants to do the work, she'll want to go to her IC as she processes. She'll need accountability (IC and/or others). SA-anon or other forms of group treatment can be helpful, but the big issue tends to be that they are typically heavily male and that dynamic isn't a good one for a female SA (perhaps the IC has some insight/ideas).

Is this an addiction that I can live with if she is getting help?

That is for you to answer.

My wife received the SA diagnosis after having several affairs over the course of 20+ years. While serial cheating is bad enough, there is a weight to the "addict" term as it makes it very clear that it will take sustained effort on your spouse's part to develop and maintain healthy boundaries. We are still together at over 5 years after the last DDay, but that has a ton to do with how I've seen her change and grow. For the first several months post DDay, she went to IC 1-2X/week and eventually added a spiritual director 1X a week as well. She worked HARD on figuring out why she cheated, what inside of her drove her and then on addressing it all head on. Even now, she still has regular appointments every few weeks with her IC to keep her accountable, but also because she continues to learn about herself.

If you are going to look at the potential to work towards reconciliation, my suggestions are:

1. Regardless of your decision or how things go, work hard on your own healing. Being betrayed multiple times is a massive emotional trauma in itself. The side-effects of that trauma can extend to the core of your self-esteem and it is vitally important that you work through everything to become fully healthy for yourself and your kids.

2. Work towards reaching the point of knowing that you will be OK regardless of how things go and that you won't accept anything less than being loved and respected.

3. Watch your wife's attitudes and actions as a window into her mind and heart. Without real, substantial change on her part, she won't become a safe partner.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 12:47 PM, March 3rd (Friday)]

wk55hn

I think if you stay with a cheater, the next time is on you.

I don't understand staying after d-day 2.

I'm still trying to figure out why I stayed after Dday#1.

I'm not sure I will stay yet.

WW keeps crying and begging for time to prove that she can change.

Don't place any value in the crying, begging and promises. Serial cheaters and SAs are typically masters at manipulation and this type of stuff are the tools of the trade.

Another way to look at it is that this is self-centered behavior -- the same type of attitude that helped justify having an affair. The crying and begging is because SHE feels bad she was caught, SHE is facing the potential of losing you/the kids/the house, SHE is facing the disgrace of more people finding out, etc. This is all regret (self-focused). What you need to see is remorse (other-focus) -- that she is horrified at what she did to YOU, that she is sad at how this could impact her KIDS, that she is upset that she has brought sadness to her PARENTS, that she can't comprehend the pain YOU must be in, etc.

Whether you give her the gift of time or not is up to you. If you do, look past all the surface level stuff as playing a "good game" in that area seems to be where many betrayed spouses are pulled back in and then setup for future DDays.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 12:56 PM, March 3rd (Friday)]

Catch, do you still love her?

With my situation, the only thing giving R even the tiniest sliver of a chance is that I'm not sure how the EFF things would work out for the kids if we went split city. Our financial situation is so tight and we'd have to take them out of a good school district and both of us would need to get tiny new places for one of us to have the kids in, or split custody or something.

That kind of stuff is all so very daunting and SCARY to me, but I know I have my answer when I say that those are the only reasons I'm not dismissing it out of hand.

Are there similar non-love-related reasons why you might more strongly consider R, or is it solely because you actually love her?

Silverlinings

Not sure if your situation is similar in terms of how badly you've been used as an unappreciated stepping stone by your WW

I definately feel like I provided decently and that was under appreciated. And WW worked hard making a home for the kids. The marriage could have been better.

There really isn't any excuse for the affairs. WW is now saying that as well, and taking full responsibilty for everything.

But I agree, I think WW is going to have a less material life without me and is going to have to work harder than she is used to. We started a 2nd business and we bought a new car, during those extra days I worked she met OM#2 at different spots. It is tough to process.

Crushed7

Another way to look at it is that this is self-centered behavior

OK, that is a great point. I still think there is some of that. But it fluctuates. And is way better than what it was. She went to IC yesterday and wanted to show text exchanges we had and the IC redirected it to working on her.

So I'm conflicted because I think she still is self centered but I think it is seen by SA IC. Can she change? Should it matter at this point?

If you are going to look at the potential to work towards reconciliation, my suggestions are:

Thanks Crushed7

Texts I've received:

How I got there and made bad choices are not the same

It was not right of me to step our of the marriage... I'm not justified for what I did.

I'm getting help, I need time and work

I'll add as I watch what is happening and I'll look for some of the points that have been brought up as well. Thanks again to everyone.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 2:03 PM, March 3rd (Friday)]

Catch, have a look at the first page of the thread. There are lots of resources there.

Addicts are selfish assholes. That's their state of mind, their only motivation is getting their next fix.

This is a long, often lonely journey for a spouse. Some decide it's just not for them. And that's okay. Regardless of whether or not you stay, you need ic for yourself.

Addicts in true recovery work harder at this than they ever have at anything. And the time commitment is considerable. But, unless she does this hard work, I would always doubt that she was a safe partner.

[This message edited by scaredyKat at 2:54 PM, March 3rd (Friday)]

So I'm conflicted because I think she still is self centered but I think it is seen by SA IC.

She likely is still self-centered. It takes time for one to recognize the issue to begin with, then to try and figure out why/how that came to be and then to work on changing. A LONG time. The key is whether you can already see progress and continue to see progress. Having a SA IC that calls it like it is helps, but that only goes so far. Being only 2 months out, it sounds like you've seen some positive steps, but it will likely be several more before you can really assess whether things are still mostly surface-level or if anything is beginning to change inside of her heart.

Can she change?

Absolutely. You just need to recognize that the odds of change in serial cheaters or SAs isn't very high. You'll want to avoid rushing into forgive/forget/trust and be very mindful of what you see inside of her.

Should it matter at this point?

If you decide that you are done, then no. It only matters if you are choosing to grant her some time to see if you think that trying to reconcile is a remote possibility.

Are there similar non-love-related reasons why you might more strongly consider R, or is it solely because you actually love her?

Fear is one that seems to hit many betrayed spouses when they consider if they want to leave. Fear of losing time with the kids. Fear of the financial impact. Fear of being alone. Fear of being viewed as a failure. Fear of the unknown.

Several months after DDay, I finally reached a point where I came to realize that it would be worse to stay in a situation where there was a lack of love/respect than to deal with everything else I feared. What kept me in R then was this thought -- "I'm seeing progress. What if she truly fixes herself and becomes the safe, loving partner that I've wanted? Wouldn't that be 'better' odds than starting over with someone I don't know at all?" That is where being able to evaluate whether she is truly changing becomes extremely important.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 2:57 PM, March 3rd (Friday)]

That kind of stuff is all so very daunting and SCARY to me, but I know I have my answer when I say that those are the only reasons I'm not dismissing it out of hand.

Are there similar non-love-related reasons why you might more strongly consider R, or is it solely because you actually love her?

SilverLinings,

I'm not quite sure what I am feeling. And it fluctuates so fast day to day. I'm not scared to leave. I'm sad. My 2 older kids know about an affair so I think they'd understand and the youngest would eventually get it. So that aspect of trying to protect them from knowing isn't a burden. I think I function on commitment to an extent. Give me the leeway to say I'm searching for God's will in all of this. But practically speaking, I don't want to do this again. So I'm not sure what I'm feeling. I'm still processing. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth~Mike Tyson. I'm processing. There is a lot of hurt and pain. I don't want to do anything that I won't feel good about later.

In one sense I have the high ground and I don't want to give that up.

Like I said, still trying to process.

scaredyKat and Crushed7,

I was ready to leave until I heard the words SA.

And I thought, "ok, maybe she wasn't doing this to me on purpose and is broken". Is that a wrong way to be looking at this? Or is it just a way for me to justify that my wife would never willingly do this to me. Thanks.