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Hi everyone, it's been about 2 years since my last post. We are almost 5 years out from Dday 1 and almost 4 years out from Dday 2. He says we have R'd but we are both still extremely unhappy.

He has began his same routine before my A's- He goes to work, comes home and ignores me. Has continued to ignore working on our marriage, does not parent or attempt to be a part of the family. I've tried so much to make him happy and to help include him, but even before the A's he was never happy. I've been constantly having anxiety attacks over it all.

When he was on a work trip last week, I finally told him how anxious I've been. We talked for the longest time since Reconciliation. He admitted that he's never tried to change or work on our marriage since we R'd and he felt safe again. He came home from his work trip two days ago and he acted as if we never talked.

I broke down and brought up the topic again. He turned and looked at me and said, what are you going to do, leave me? You'll be the first one to leave. I told him that was untrue. It would have to be a mutual decision before we ever parted ways. He replied, "Well, at least that's changed."

I'm at a loss. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I can't give much advice, but maybe some perspective.

This is a generalization, but BS men with remorseful WW kind of fall into three buckets. The first is those who can check their ego, and at least accept what happened to them. They are willing to do whatever it takes to heal their marriage. I think by the nature of what SI is, this group is over represented here versus the general population.

The second is the group that throws there wife's clothes out on the lawn, possibly beats them, and tells them to GTFO.

The last and probably biggest group is those of us that are shattered by the experience. Our wives gave themselves to someone else which is humiliating. Trust is broken, and even if the WW so desperately wants it, we cannot look at them the same way again.

My wife knows that I will never feel the same way about her again. Our sex life is now very different in that the act she loved getting, and I loved doing is off the table. Anniversary celebrations are gone. I now have a therapist telling me I need to hold my wife instead of it being a natural act. This is just the tip of how things changed

Maybe I can move to bucket number one. It is something to aspire to and I am amazed by the guys who have the way things are right now I don't think that will happen

Until then, my wife has to settle for what she has. If that isn't good enough for her, I would understand her leaving. She knows I am on the verge of leaving all the time

If him still being there isn't good enough, you don't have to accept it. You can walk. I can tell you that he is probably unhappy too

I am sorry for the position you are in. Being a remorseful WS with a BS that harbors resentments is tough

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 5:30 AM, June 29th (Thursday)]

Waited- I'm going to be blunt here, but I think it is needed. I agree with everything you said about how this has devastated you and your ego. I'm not saying get over it. I'm going to ask you to try something else - stop saying "I'll never get over it". I'm only asking that you remove the absolute. Change it to "it will be really hard to enjoy life with my wife the way I had envisioned ". Maybe then you can begin to enjoy life again. You will give yourself permission to enjoy it. The way your self dialogue goes now, it's almost as if you aren't allowed to enjoy things. You are standing in your own way. Maybe think of it like this - "I'm not going to let the slime ball ruin anymore days of mine. When I don't allow myself to enjoy life, then he wins." Waited - I know you don't want him to win. 😉 I know your ego won't let him win. Get it? Life doesn't have to be the same. Change what your future will look like. Stop deciding your fate before it happens. It's ok to enjoy life with your wife. That doesn't make you less of a man. It shows how amazing you are as a man that you can do it.

Wheredoigo- why are you staying? What good qualities does your husband have? Are you compatible? Did you have good times before the A?

You made a huge mistake, but that doesn't mean that you should save the marriage if the marriage isn't worth saving. Don't play mind games. Just decide if there is hope for a future with him. Then have a grown up conversation.

Here's the thing- we talk all the time about if we have a WS who is capable of R. Not all BS are capable either.

If you do want to save it, why not try getting him to open up. Ask him if he's happy in the marriage. What things make him unhappy. Don't criticize or try to fix things, just listen and empathize. Latter ask how you can make things better. My guess is that he's not good at being self aware. You might be able to help him if you are patient and loving

I can't give much advice, but maybe some perspective.

This is a generalization, but BS men with remorseful WW kind of fall into three buckets. The first is those who can check their ego, and at least accept what happened to them. They are willing to do whatever it takes to heal their marriage. I think by the nature of what SI is, this group is over represented here versus the general population.

The second is the group that throws there wife's clothes out on the lawn, possibly beats them, and tells them to GTFO.

The last and probably biggest group is those of us that are shattered by the experience. Our wives gave themselves to someone else which is humiliating. Trust is broken, and even if the WW so desperately wants it, we cannot look at them the same way again.

My wife knows that I will never feel the same way about her again. Our sex life is now very different in that the act she loved getting, and I loved doing is off the table. Anniversary celebrations are gone. I now have a therapist telling me I need to hold my wife instead of it being a natural act. This is just the tip of how things changed

Maybe I can move to bucket number one. It is something to aspire to and I am amazed by the guys who have the way things are right now I don't think that will happen

Until then, my wife has to settle for what she has. If that isn't good enough for her, I would understand her leaving. She knows I am on the verge of leaving all the time

If him still being there isn't good enough, you don't have to accept it. You can walk. I can tell you that he is probably unhappy too

I am sorry for the position you are in. Being a remorseful WS with a BS that harbors resentments is tough

That was a damn good post.

Waited, that was an awesome post!

Until then, my wife has to settle for what she has. If that isn't good enough for her, I would understand her leaving. She knows I am on the verge of leaving all the time

If him still being there isn't good enough, you don't have to accept it. You can walk. I can tell you that he is probably unhappy too

I've had this conversation with my WW so many times it's ridiculous.

W3irz, you completely missed the mark on this one. It's not just a mindset, some the traits and reasons I cherished, loved, and appreciated about my WW before her A are simply gone. I simply cannot view her in the same way. She is not the person I thought she was. It's like a switch has been thrown in my mind and I can't flip it back on. I used to be proud to call her my wife, now I feel shame. This has absolutely nothing to do with the AP. I don't give a shit about that person anymore; I'm well past that. I was not betrayed by the AP. There are no winners in infidelity.

wheredoigo, I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for you. You were betrayed in your first marriage and apparently had no issues cheating in your second with multiple APs. You had firsthand knowledge of the pain of betrayal, yet you still cheated. And then another A after the first d day?! How could you do that? Now you're wondering why your BH is disconnected from you? I don't really think there's any such thing as reconciled. I think it's a lifelong process, there is no finish line. Your cheating will rear its head occasionally throughout your marriage. Your BH will have to contend with humiliation, disgust, anger, and shame on an almost daily basis. He will have to learn to live with a woman he doesn't respect. You're going to have to learn to live with uncertainty and anxiety that he will cheat or throw your ass out at some point. I hope that shit was worth it.

wheredoigo,

Why do you say you are R'ed? IMO, R means (among other things) creating an M that serves both of you, and it doesn't sound like you and your H are very far apart.

wheredoigo, I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for you. You were betrayed in your first marriage and apparently had no issues cheating in your second with multiple APs. You had firsthand knowledge of the pain of betrayal, yet you still cheated. And then another A after the first d day?! How could you do that? Now you're wondering why your BH is disconnected from you? I don't really think there's any such thing as reconciled. I think it's a lifelong process, there is no finish line. Your cheating will rear its head occasionally throughout your marriage. Your BH will have to contend with humiliation, disgust, anger, and shame on an almost daily basis. He will have to learn to live with a woman he doesn't respect. You're going to have to learn to live with uncertainty and anxiety that he will cheat or throw your ass out at some point. I hope that shit was worth it.

That is 100% out of line, rude, condesending and uncalled for.

I agree that waitedwaytoolong's post was excellent.

I'm at a loss. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I'll start with a caveat... I don't really know. These are guesses, not even educated guesses.

First, it concerns me that you simply describe him as unhappy. Your description of your marriage is very similar to how my wife would describe our marriage before I got treated for depression. I was literally unhappy and there was literally NOTHING that she could have done to make me happy. Like you, she went elsewhere for affection and attention. Neither of you are unique; I've had numerous PMs and discussions in threads from spouses like you.

So, let me recommend that you have him evaluated for mental health issues, specifically depression. It's really common for depression to manifest itself as anger with men.

Put differently: Check to make sure that he is healthy from a psychiatric perspective.

Second, it sounds like you have a difficult marriage and a life that you do not enjoy. There is nothing wrong with divorce... I would much rather that you (or my wife or anyone else) go for a divorce in this situation.

I'm gonna agree with strugglebus, I think SFTK went over the line, and SFTK is one of my favorites.

I am also a BH dealing with this.

I am sorry for the position you are in. Being a remorseful WS with a BS that harbors resentments is tough

Its been 13 years, and only recently have I come to terms with the resentment I've been holding on to. My marriage stagnated after the A, I call it tolerable.

My WW really never put herself in my shoes, to understand how devastated I felt. How do you deal with a spouse that has pulled such a con job on you for your whole marriage, and now just wants to forget about it because it's too hard to face.?

Recently we have a few very tough and emotional talks, I can't go on living in a marriage that is only "tolerable".

I told her what I wanted was an emotional dedication and commitment equal to the one I had for her. I feel I did my part, I stayed, perhaps I didn't work on it as hard as I should have, but I expected her to do most of the effort. If she felt that she didn't deserve to be loved like that, how is she ever going to return that love to me.

MC and IC was a bust in our case, neither got much out of us. Maybe just too soon. In any case, I have decided to try my hand at being her IC.

I have got to the point I can ask questions and discuss the details objectively, from a neutral position, not as a BH. There is nothing I can do about what has already happened, but maybe I can help her work through whatever issues she has to overcome to find that deeply loving, committed, and sexual wife I've been hoping for.

wheredoigo, it's your job to figure out what caused it, how to prevent it again, and most of all how to connect with your H at level I'm guessing you have for some reason failed or refused to venture into. YOU have to bring it up, YOU have to ask him what he wants from a wife, and a woman he hopes to spend the rest of his life with. YOU need to decide if you can be than woman and partner.

If I can talk from his point of view, he has met you half way. He is waiting for you to change. The key is empathy, put yourself is his shoes, understand the heartbreak, the deception, and his disappointment that you were not what he had hoped for.

To do this will push you into uncomfortable areas you have kept protected for some reason. Your job is expose your weakness and flaws, accept them, then trust him to accept them.

Thank you to everyone for your responses. Let me start with, we haven't updated our profiles in several years. We didn't use SI soley for our R. We went to counseling, we went to a wonderful program called Retrouvaille and, in the end, my BS (whom introduced me to SI) eventually found SI to be too much of a trigger for him. He would always gravitate to the JFO boards to pain shop. ( His admission, not mine.) I always come back to SI when we struggle. I promised myself I would always go to SI instead of sharing information on my marriage with family or friends when I'm unhappy (walls and windows). We have very much worked on our marriage, but there are days that literally crumble in on him because he tends to have an ostrich approach to life (again, his words, not mine).

Waitedtoolong, thank you, thank you for your words- sincerely. It never ceases to amaze me at the BS's that reach out and try to help the other WS's on this site. I see that you are only a year out- my BH was right there with you at that point too. Where we are at now though, is that he's said that he's R'd- even so much as saying he wants to renew wedding vows- but where I am at is that he doesn't want to put the work in that goes along to having a healthy marriage. In that moment- when he has to face what he needs to improve on- he goes back to the A's and asks me what it will take to make me leave. It's hard to explain so much in one short post that has happened in 12 years of marriage and 5 years of devastation and recovery in one post...but in a nut shell, this is where he's at. (I am being very careful to project my own emotions.)

I am sorry for the position you are in. Being a remorseful WS with a BS that harbors resentments is tough

It is tough, but gosh darn, I love him and truly never want to break our vows again...so for better or worse it is... We did leave with a 5 year plan that he was willing to agree on. He said that I was right, he wasn't trying to step up to the plate and needs to stop going back "there" every time I ask him to meet me halfway.

Wheredoigo- why are you staying? What good qualities does your husband have? Are you compatible? Did you have good times before the A?

W3IRZ, I am staying because I love him. Hands down. My A's were exit A's. I gave up on him, myself, everything. I truly lost any respect and thought he didn't love me anymore. Until the house was on fire, burning down, he didn't show much interest or put much into "us." The best analogy I can use for this time is the scene from Romeo and Juliet where Juliet wakes up after drinking the poison only to see the love of her life commit suicide because he cannot live without her. I thought he didn't love me. I literally committed marriage suicide as an act of anger, resentment towards him only to see him wake up. When he woke up, it was too late, I had already had 2 A's within 1 month. Then I had to reveal to him the poison. What I had done.

Apart from that, I also expected his love language to be just like mine- through acts of kindness and quality time. He's touch. Not the same thing. At all. (All discovered during R)

What good qualities does your husband have?

Are you compatible? These go hand in hand. Absolutely. He is the ying to my yang. Vice versa. We have this amazing ability to take day to day problems and work them out together. Key word- when he wants to. That was all the time, but over time it's become a constant resistance.

Did you have good times before the A?

Oh gosh, this is a hard one. Yes and no? We were thrown so many curveballs so early on in our marriage. His ex-wife passed one year into our marriage. His ex-wife's mom basically moved in to our marriage. I now know that what I thought was trying to help by letting his ex-mil walk all over us is now poor boundaries of someone who did NOT respect our marriage or me, but the combo caused him and I to spend a lot of time apart (me at home with the kids and ex-mil dealing with the tragic events while he worked and literally pain shopped by buying expensive and extravagant things for him.) Don't get me wrong, when we did have good times, it was usually on vacation or watching a TV show we enjoyed together, but we unfortunately didn't spend a lot of time together early on.

One thing I can say is that during our time when we began to R we were given a wonderful gift- he suddenly became senior in his job and had multiple days off for us to spend together- to re-connect- to grow. I also cut everyone out of my life that didn't support my new lifestyle and my marriage. I spent my newfound extra time researching who I was and what lead to my terrible decisions and focusing on helping my BH with whatever he needed from me, questions, long talks, answers or something as simple as a cup of joe to help keep him away after our late night chats. Without this time, we would of never, ever made it this far. It was the ultimate unexplained miracle in our marriage thus far.

Stayedforthekids,

Your post made me cry. Not that your words hurt, but for your pain. I get where you are. (From both sides.) Where ever you are, I hope you will find happiness here and there and eventually, when the time is right, healing and peace. I'm so glad you are on SI and surrounded by some pretty wonderful people to help guide you.

I'd like to clarify something that you said:

You were betrayed in your first marriage and apparently had no issues cheating in your second with multiple APs. You had firsthand knowledge of the pain of betrayal, yet you still cheated.

The only advice I could ever give to a BS: If you do not work on the pain caused from your spouse's betrayal, it can lead to you doing the very same. Either to your WS that betrayed you (aka RA) or even worse- in a future relationship. Which, in this case was me.

To believe you are "safe from ever cheating because it happened to you" is the biggest lie you can tell yourself.

There is no WS on SI that I've ever came across that can say they were mentally healthy prior to an A.

And then another A after the first d day?! How could you do that?

There was not another A after the first D-Day. There was another A one month after the first A. I told him about the first A on D-Day and then TT'd for a year before finally signing up on SI and realized I needed to stop trying to hide and control the future and give him ALL of the truth. Our marriage was no longer our decision. It needed to be his. And it's still in his court. Even to this day.

Sisoon! You've always been a wonderful sounding board- thank you for posting. :)

Why do you say you are R'ed? IMO, R means (among other things) creating an M that serves both of you, and it doesn't sound like you and your H are very far apart.

How do I answer this...ok, here's what I have- He says we are there. He feels safe. He knows I've changed. It's his decision. And I agree that we are there... BUT- when it comes to working on all the issues before the A's- a lot that include work for him, he falls back to "Nope. Don't need to do any of that. Or, I don't know if I can be that for you."

We are so close to being "there" but when it comes to putting the action behind his words, we are back to resentment and anger. He, himself, doesn't understnad why he always goes to that dark place. Is it habitual? Just easier than changing? Is it something more?

barcher144, if you don't mind me asking, did therapy help you? If this is the case for my BS (which he has always been glass half empty- for sure), I can't imagine leaving him in this state. (I could never do that to him again.)

twisted- We have something in common:

Recently we have a few very tough and emotional talks, I can't go on living in a marriage that is only "tolerable".

This is the talk we had...except I had it with him.

The key is empathy, put yourself is his shoes, understand the heartbreak, the deception, and his disappointment that you were not what he had hoped for.

To do this will push you into uncomfortable areas you have kept protected for some reason. Your job is expose your weakness and flaws, accept them,

I have radically changed. He says that everyday. He has affirmed I have went above and beyond what he needed or expected me to do. I am not the same person he married. I am coming to him with my unhappiness this time- I am not seeking empathy from friend or family or running away or looking for an enabling ass (aka an OM) or even filing for divorce. I'm not ready to walk out. I want to fight...even after R when he feels safe and comfortable..but his comfortable before I know now is unhealthy mentally for me (tending to everything except bringing home a paycheck), so I'm not willing to let "comfortable" settle back in as the norm. In order for this to work we have to be partners. The same way we were while working to reach R.

then trust him to accept them.

This is where he's at....and has been for 3+ years. He and I are in a 3 + year holding pattern.

He wants me to make it for him. (His words, not mine.)

------

With all of this being said, we finally sat down and decided to write out our list of expectations over the next year. We do actually do better when there is a true "plan" in place. We will regroup next week and go over what we've written. Then we will set goals in order to reach them. We both agreed that the stagnant life that we've lived is not acceptable to either of us. Giving us written goals will help give us something to work toward. It will also help both of us stay accountable and know what we are neglecting and will help him from returning to the "dark" place in the moment.

[This message edited by wheredoigo at 1:50 AM, June 30th (Friday)]

Stayed for the kids- I can accept the part that I'm off about the AP, but that was not really relevant to what I'm saying. What I'm trying to say is that if you believe something will never happen- it won't. If you believe something will happen- it might. It's the old story of The Little Engine That Could. Mostly I'm not even asking that you start thinking positively. I'm asking that you don't ruin your chances at a happy R by saying it isn't possible at all. Do you see the difference? Take the AP out of it completely and it still has the same point. My point really had nothing to do with AP. I'm not even sure why I put that there.

On the flip side, you aren't unique because you can't see specialness in your wife. You think this bombshell dropped on me and I still thought my husband hung the moon? Nope actually I thought "all of the things I loved and relied on in my husband vanished." I had to start from the bottom and find those reasons or other reasons. So I get that you don't find specialness in your wife and if you keep focusing on the wrong that was done, you will never find specialness again. Whatever we focus on snowballs.

I have said this saying for most of my adult life "Perspective is everything ". That motto has helped me through most of my healing. If you can't change something (the past), change your perspective. I hope that helps and I hope that clears some things up. If not, ignore my post. It really doesn't offend me.

So I get that you don't find specialness in your wife and if you keep focusing on the wrong that was done, you will never find specialness again. Whatever we focus on snowballs.

this is so important to understand

it's like being in a garden full of roses - your focus on the thorns versus the blooms will determine the feelings involved and thereafter the perception of whether to enjoy or be afraid

yes rebuilding trust takes time and wheredoigo = what communication work have you two done to improve the dynamic between you both? What does he mean by your "he says... comment" are you saying it as a quote or are your giving us your thoughts about what you think his perspective is = do you see the difference?

So if I asked him directly "Are you happily R'd"? He would say "oh yes, extremely happy"

and so you are trying to figure out where your anxiety is coming from?

because it is confusing to read how you write "he was never happy"

so I would say to start with re-reading what you just wrote and stepping back in questioning the "never" statement and then recall how you all talked about his work trip - did you make is all about your feelings and get him to support you emotionally or was there any listening on your part in the dialogue?

I am not laying blame... IMAGO is a useful communication tool to help in the dance regarding sharing feelings and perspectives and in hopefully working better to address when we misunderstand a situation how to reflect back empathetically and get that connection

so IMO I would tell you to search out and question your perspectives

thoughts/feelings come and go

gregg braden has a good interview on this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66HB9QERKxs

when it comes to working on all the issues before the A's

A little reframing might help. I suggest thinking in terms like the following:

Your old M is dead, and the issues related to the old M are dead, too.

New issues come up everyday in your new M, and you have to resolve them, even if the resolution is to ignore the minor ones.

I suggest putting the past aside. When he does something that bugs you in a significant way (enough so that you're willing to put energy into making changes), raise the issue and ask him to work with you to resolve it - not because it's an old issue, but because it's a real here-and-now one.

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:30 AM, June 30th (Friday)]