SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm processing and working through this whole idea of morals and cheating. Perhaps I can get a lot of really good discussion on this topic to help me sort of work it out in my head.

So in my head I think, "If you have morals, you can't cheat." I don't know. That is what stops me from even considering it, right? So a guy makes a move, and I'm grossed out because, DUH, I'm married. Of course, there are other things at play here. Respect for my vows. Respect for my spouse. Empathy. Compassion. All of this is part of it, too, right?

So...does this mean they do not have morals? Because what is the point of morals if you don't keep them. To me, those are not morals; those are what you would like to believe you have. If you can set them aside, are they morals at all ?

Ok. Let's chat.

ETA: Yes, NTV, I have journaled the crap out of this one. I just find myself getting angry.

[This message edited by demolishedinside at 9:38 AM, September 27th (Wednesday)]

WS's may have morals but they go by the wayside (or the wayward LOL) in favor of their selfishness and sense of entitlement. They can rationalize and attempt to justify their actions so they don't feel like the fucktards that they really are.

My WH says that he knew what he was doing was wrong and that he couldn't believe what he was doing. But his addictions were stronger than his moral compass.

My morals do prevent me from cheating, as does a tremendous fear of catching an STI. Also, I was raised by a single Dad from the age of 7 on, and one of the things that he taught me was to never sink to someone else's level. I refuse to behave as badly as my WH and the OW's did. After all, I'm not a piece of shit.

Do you see what I mean, though, CookieMom? Are they morals if you can let them go by the wayside?

I think this is where the rationalizations, justifications, and compartmenting come in.

I know my H bashed cheaters. In the aftermath of dday, it blew my mind.

They rationalize....oh, it is JUST sex, I don't love this person, so it isn't THAT bad. Or, she won't find out, so it can't hurt, and so since it can't hurt, it isn't that bad.

They justify...well, she doesn't give me sex enough, and I deserve more sex.

They compartmentalize...what I do in my private life, away from home, when she doesn't know, and won't know bc I won't get caught, can't hurt her, so it isn't really affecting her.

Combine these three things, and it is a potent recipe to cook up a massive betrayal of themselves. Remember, the first person a cheater lies to is themselves. They tell themselves these lies to put a square peg in a round hole....THEY are not what their morals tell them they do not want to be.THEY are a moral person....it is OK in THIS SUPER SPECIAL situation bc, well, justification, rationalization, compartmentalization. These are the mental gymnastics that make a cheater cheat when they are otherwise a good person, not NPD, or a sociopath.

hi demolishedinside I agree with the other posters. my fwh did what cookiemom explained rationalized and justified his actions although he knew it was wrong. I read somewhere (cant recall where) that the wayward spouse has to make the BS the villain in order to justify the cheating. I know mine did.

It matters not what you call it- rationalizing, compartmentalizing…. The bottom line remains the same. Those who betray are without morals in that area. Add to it, that mentality never really changes. Some of them may not betray, in fact, again and others will. But to me it doesn’t change their morals. As an example, an admitted alcoholic may not drink again, but they are still an alcoholic. Some recognize it and some do not.

When my wife abandoned her own moral standards is what confused me the most about her infidelity. I think that makes the 'why' important to address and explore or those 'usual' morals can be tossed aside again.

And I think it is easy to try to throw all waywards into the same box. That happens because the behavior pattern - once they decide to cheat- is all the same.

But the truth is; is some people who cheat never really had many morals, some are good people who choose wrong, some people who cheat have real mental problems that need counseling and medication.

No one here could pick my wife out of a line-up and be able to determine, "Aha, she is a person who is bad."

Hell, my wife was one of those people who never missed class in school -- because she knew she was 'supposed' to be in class. She is by the book kind and caring, an incredible mother who never missed a beat when raising our sons. Her work crews would lay down in traffic if she asked them, because she actually cares for them and enforces a safe working environment for them - a rare thing in her industry. The list goes on and on. So, yeah, her poor choices were a huge surprise.

Despite all the good she has done, I do have to determine if she is vulnerable to future lapses or if she has actually learned that temporary escapes have no long term value. So far, all actions by her now seem to show she has learned how she failed me and herself.

To me it is more about determining whether you are with with a bad person who did bad, a good person who did bad or someone limited by mental health issues who needs help to be better.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 10:12 AM, September 27th (Wednesday)]

WS here.

I had always felt, and still feel, that I "had morals" in that I knew right from wrong and knew that doing the wrong thing hurt other people, hurt myself, led to undesirable personal consequences, would lead to a society of complete chaos if everyone chose to do the wrong thing, etc. But in unpacking my psyche after D-day, I came to realize that while I had an intellectual knowledge of right vs. wrong, I had never really *lived* by morality as a core value within my soul (or whatever you want to call it). My behavior pre-affair was always somewhat conditional---even knowing right from wrong (and I knew and believed full well that committing adultery was wrong both before and while I was doing it), I put that belief aside because I wanted to do it more than I cared that it was wrong.

Strangely enough, I'm not that way about EVERY possible wrong in the world. There are many things that I would absolutely never do even if I wanted to, far too many to list exhaustively, but for example: stealing, murder, child abuse, hurting an animal on purpose. I'm still, 8 years later, working on the "why" adultery was different in my mind in that it was something I was so easily able to do despite it going against what I do believe is right (marital fidelity and keeping a promise).

Linda McDonald explains this well in her PDF "Who will you become". I have tried to find it since the first time I read it. I can't locate it. Maybe someone here could?

It's the best way to possible see how a WS rationalizes anything.

Respectfully, thatbp, I disagree that people don't change morals. I am one of them. I was a terribly promiscuous young woman. I have quite a few notches on my bedposts. I saw nothing wrong with bedding who I wanted on a whim (barring men I knew where in a relationship). I was raised differently. I was raised not to behave that way. Long before my H cheated, I changed that. I saw myself as disgusting. I did not want to be that girl anymore. Now, I am quite a prude. I was wrong then, I knew it, and that is why I hid it from those I loved. I was ashamed. I tremendously regret who I was. I was too immature to have a well formed moral code or too immature to recognize my own morals and honor them. I am still trying to sort that out, decades later. Not sure if I lacked morals or was too immature to internalize them.

[This message edited by Hardroadout at 10:30 AM, September 27th (Wednesday)]

A year ago, I would have said that my wife had a strong moral compass. In most respects, I could still say that today. She tells the cashier if she got too much change back, she isn't one to skim anything from the non-profit that she works with, and she generally obeys traffic laws.

So what would allow her to think that connecting with another man in a deep, personal emotional level was OK? She has figured out not only her "why's" but also the chemical makeup of the environment as a whole that led her to fog her moral compass and determine that her actions weren't outside of her beliefs.

Is she amoral? Definitely not. Her compass unfogged and got recalibrated to where it belonged. That is why my wife is remorseful today. She saw just how off true North she got.

Does my wife lack integrity? That depends. It is ultimately in the eye of the beholder. There are friends who do not know who believe her to have the same level of integrity as she always has. For me, yes, she completely compromised her integrity. But she is doing things every day that rebuilds the integrity and my trust.

So, so our WS have morals & integrity? I can't speak for all, but I can say that mine did and does. She simply chose to overlook those for a brief time because what she selfishly wanted went against what she knew to be right.

Personally, I think it goes far deeper than whether or not a WS has integrity or morals. We all have those aspects to our character, to varying degrees. It's listening to those morals, valuing one's integrity, that make all of the difference in the world.

Being human isn't easy.

Fortunately, however, we humans also have a choice. Now, before you roll your eyes, Dem...

"As a human being, you have no choice about the fact that you need a philosophy. Your only choice is whether you define your philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation--or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy and fused into a single, solid weight: self-doubt, like a ball and chain in the place where your mind's wings should have grown."

What is infidelity if not the result of a 'mongrel philosophy.' What junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears did your WS integrate into his philosophy (values, morals, integrity, however you wish to define it) in order to justify actions he knew to be fundamentally immoral?

We are all responsible for our own happiness and our own philosophy on life. We have to carefully define these things like integrity, morality, scruples, all of it... for ourselves. It's requires thought, actively contemplating ourselves, our actions, our lives and what we do with them.

Now, I'm sure by now you know quite well that I'm not perfect and that I don't always have the ability to see all sides of an issues. I don't always define my philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation... because, well... I was unhinged for long time.

I can't answer, with any certainty, whether or not a WS has morals or integrity. It's seems fairly obvious to me that at the time of their affairs, morals and integrity have already ceased to mean much to them, because they've allowed themselves to buy into a sort of mongrel philosophy that allows them to betray themselves.

To me, infidelity just isn't a possibility. It never was. Maybe that's because I have enough morals and enough integrity to realize that I'd be betraying myself above all others.

So...does this mean they do not have morals?

No, but I would say that 'they' would benefit from carefully defining what those morals are and what they mean.

Hmmmm....I believe that at the time at the least the wayward does not share the same set of morals as others do in regards to infidelity.

My WW was pretty blunt. She basically said that she knew that she should not cheat, she knew that i would be devastated if i found out. But she wanted to have sex with other men more then those thoughts. She simply cared more about getting laid with random guys then her morality.

In my situation at least, i believe that their were other issues under the surface inside her. but, the simple fact is that she did not value me or our marriage at the same level as i did, at a level that was unacceptable to me.

Ok...as I have been discussing with other members here is what I am gathering from all of this...correct me if I am wrong.

Many who cheat can compartmentalize in a way to ignore what they know is wrong. Many have not...internalized and made these things core values so they are instead rules that others have told them to follow but maybe it isn't truly believed?

I'm not trying to generalize so much as to get an idea of all of this. I KNOW that it is different for everyone. I am appreciative of all of the responses and still pulling it all together here.

For me, the not actually acting on what is said are core values is what is disturbing. Because then, how do we know those are actually internalized values? At what point in the work does that happen? Do people mature and therefore, they do finally internalize and make these core values that they will make no justifications or allowances for?

"If you have morals, you can't cheat." I don't know. That is what stops me from even considering it, right?

Esther Perel is off-base in some of what she writes in The Atlantic Magazine for 10/17, but she says some things that make sense, including that an A can be or can result from an identity crisis.

It's not lack of morals in itself that leads to cheating, in her view (as I understand it). Rather, it's more a matter of facing a new situation and the WS not knowing who she is - and not knowing who she is, she doesn't have a moral compass at that specific time. (And having made the wrong choice once, it can be hard to get back on track, especially if your partner in crime uses blackmail.)

I find a lot of merit in this hypothesis, and I think I agree with it, though I'd like to see more discussion of this idea.

My W's case is different, though, and I think her process is common among WSes, especially KISAs and other co-dependents. My W cheated as a way to keep her pain at bay.

This is one thing that EP misses - some subset of WSes cheat in order to keep part of themselves hidden, not to explore newly identified parts. I think this subset of WSes is large, but I have no proof.

In the 'identity crisis A', the WS cheats because she doesn't know who she is. In the 'pain-hiding A', the WS thinks she knows who she is and hates herself.

Again, though, morals take a back seat for these folks because the pain is so great that the person is essentially in survival mode. Once you're in survival mode, all bets on morality are off.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:19 AM, September 27th (Wednesday)]

AND...this is what I've spent two and a half years really trying to say, I think. That I DO KNOW that I wouldn't cheat because of my own morals/values because they are internal and not external. Doing so WOULD be betraying myself and I do know that internally...fully. So maybe those who have that external locus of control don't know that internally? Maybe it is not seen as a betrayal of the self because it is not yet a core belief?

Am I making sense?

It makes sense. But even in some cases, such as mine, I did see it as a betrayal of self and did it anyway because I didn't care.

DF, you did not care that you were hurting yourself?

(DF...feel free not to respond directly here. I appreciate your candidness, as always and value your thoughts here).

demolished,

Correct. It sounds crazy but I literally did not care about anything except what I perceived as getting what I wanted. I remember very distinctly having a conversation with myself that went something like: "You know you will get caught. ***** will divorce you when he finds out. Not only that but it is wrong even if he never finds out. And you are acting like a slut." And so forth. I made the conscious deliberate decision to do it anyway---which disgusts me to this day, that I was so callous, but at the time it seemed completely natural. Which, again, also to this day still confuses me because in the vast majority of areas of my life, I am anything but a troublemaker or a rule-breaker.

I believe cheaters are morally bankrupt people. I also don't buy into the first betrayal is to themselves. I think that is what BS tell themselves to make staying palatable.

Can some grow a moral or two? Maybe. But, I think they are very few. I believe that is why we see D-days #2, #3....