SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi every one. I’ve been lurking here for over a year but this is my first post. I’ll try to be brief in my story, but it’s a lengthy one, so bear with me.

WH started having an emotional affair with an office assistant in April of 2015. It only lasted about 5 weeks before I figured it out, and immediately demanded he fire her and cut contact. He did fire her, and he said he cut contact. We began couples counseling at that time. I was 6 months pregnant with our 3rd baby on Dday. (In hindsight, should have pushed for IC at that time).

At the end of August of 2015 I found out that he had only gone NC for 3 weeks, and then he continued the affair… and it had escalated to a PA. I was devastated but also 6 weeks post-partum, so I tossed him into our basement guest room and immediately demanded he begin IC. I started IC too. I had post-partum depression badly with my first pregnancy, and I was terrified I’d go down that rabbit hole again, so a lot of my focus was on myself and baby. Luckily, with the help of my OB and an awesome IC, it didn’t happen.

In October of 2015, AP contacted WH and he responded. I found out immediately (he sort of sucks at having affairs), and by that time I had found SI-- I threw him out and filed for legal separation. This finally seemed to break the fog, the whole getting served thing. We began R in earnest, and it sucked. He lived out of the home for 2 months, and we decided he should move back in if we were going to give R a real go. I should add here—my biggest mistake at this time was NOT calling the OW’s husband. I had my reasons, but in hindsight, HUGE HUGE HUGE mistake. The fantasy wasn’t completely dead.

It seemed to go okay for about 6 months, but as I came out of shock and realized the enormity of the betrayal, it seemed WH couldn’t handle that level of anger/hurt. Also, I’m a child and adolescent therapist. I love feelings and talking about “whys” and I think the world is made up of beautiful rainbows of gray. At the time, WH saw the world in black and white, could barely name 5 feelings, prefers surface level, and was never allowed to make his own choices growing up. He’s not even sure he chose his profession or if his parents chose for him. Love was conditional upon success in his home, so he achieved by whatever means necessary. The world or people weren’t to be trusted, so he didn’t (and doesn’t) really have true friends. His only relationships were with woman. He’s charming and very successful and handsome, and prior to our marriage, was a serial monogamist. He would date a woman for 3-5 years, and then cheat on her and move on when the “in love” feeling wore off—my assessment, not his. Obviously, I didn’t have this info when I married him; this has all been put together along the way. So the way I see it…. he got overwhelmed in the marriage and with our life, was panicked because I’m a train wreck when pregnant and because our marriage was already struggling with 2 littles and now we were adding a 3rd… and basically, he had his usual exit affair instead of manning up and asking for counseling, or for a divorce. Only this time, there was a sh*tload more at stake by having an affair, and obviously he didn’t think that through.

Eventually, I can see him withdrawing as he flounders to figure out how to truly R, and finally in February of 2016, he says he wants a divorce. He says he’s too scared he’ll hurt me again, and that he’s broken, and that he messed up too far beyond to save it. I take him at face value. He moves out, we tell our children this time that we are not going to stay married (oldest now 4, so that convo SUCKED), we plan a fair custody agreement with no issues, and start implementing it. 1 week later, he changes his mind, and is a train wreck. I admit, I thought he finally “got it.” However, I say tough shit and carry forward, and tell him we will live separately but I won’t file D if he continues to show me he’s working on himself, remorseful, and putting in insane effort. My biggest worry always is messing with the kids, so I’m insistent upon keeping their world as if we ARE D’ing.

Welp, apparently, in March, he got a burner phone and contacted the AP. The EA began again. All records indicate no PA this go round, they were too terrified of getting caught to see each other much, but spoke on the phone and texted daily. I find out in May, because again, he sucks at having an affair and obviously subconsciously wants me to know. I immediately, within 2 hours, call the AP’s husband. I tell him EVERY THING, and apologize in earnest for not calling him much earlier. We talk on and off for weeks. AP hasn’t spoken to WH since the day I called her husband (supposedly). I don’t think she ever intended to D… this wasn’t an exit affair for her, it seems. They are still attempting to R. AP’s husband and I are still in occasional contact.

So… I plan my divorce and keep my whits about me, while also being devastated and somehow still shocked. I keep a very safe distance and have minimal interactions. For a lot of financial reasons I’m not comfortable putting out on the internet, staying legally married is beneficial to me and my children. I’m NOT in a rush to go through with the actual divorce (and yes, I have a very good attorney). The other important thing to note: our surface level compatibility is ridiculously good. We parent the same, we enjoy the same activities, we often crave the same food at the same time. We have no issues being in the same space and being kind/respectful/warm to each other. At this time, I’m not worried about the kids, they’re doing great (thankfully).

When it all blew up in May, WH doubled his individual therapy. In July, I notice for the first time EVER that he seems to have developed insight. Just a tad. He shared it with me and I acted like I didn’t care, but the co-parent and therapist in me were happy to see the progress. August rolls around and there’s more insight, and then empathy too. There’s connection to his FOO stuff, there’s acknowledgment on a level I’ve never heard or seen, and I do take notice. Last month, he shares with me a connection he made to his childhood that I’ve been hoping he’d make for YEARS. He cried when he told me. I listened and told him I was happy for him. In that moment, I felt my heart open the tiniest bit to R.

And yet, as I type this all out for the first time, I see how horrific it is. I see what I would be signing back up for. He says he’s 100% committed to reconciling and that he’s working on everything he needs to do/understand to be a safe partner. What I hear out of his mouth is different these days. He’s terrified he’ll have an affair again somewhere down the line, and so I told him there’s no real R until he’s as sure as any one person can be that he won’t. But even the honesty of him being terrified by who he is and what he does was refreshing.

Does anyone see any hope here? Or am I am absolute lunatic for considering this? I’m ready for 2x4s but admit they won’t be easy to hear. Thanks for your time in just reading this novel!

Honestly...I would stay on the course you are as being separated. Probably not filing D yet, and continue to monitor his progress from their. If your comfortable where you and the kids are at now your in no immediate danger. Then just stay the course and you'll know eventually what you really want.

Totally agree that there is no need to rush to D but continue with separation until you are convinced he has put in the work and that he can be a safe partner again. Look, you have three kids together and a long history. For me, the fact that we had kids and a long history enabled me to give H a second chance. He had to earn my trust back and I wouldn't stay for the kids but I wanted to keep my family together if I could get to a place of trust and love with him.

Does it matter that much?

You've already decided to delay your D. You're together. You'll see if he changes from cheater to good partner, and you'll be able to make your decision them.

I have no doubt that just about anybody who wants to change his/her internals can change his/her internals, so I believe there's hope for your H. Whether he changes or not, I can't predict with any accuracy.

But:

D – Don’t

E – Even

T – Think

A – About

C – Changing

H – Him.

You know that, right?

I am concerned that he's changing in order to reconcile. If, for him, that's different from changing for his own reasons, you may see him slack off if he doesn't get the response he's looking for. I recommend watching for a good period - 6 months, probably more.

IDK if any WS - anybody, for that matter - can ever feel really safe from cheating. In healing himself, your H can build new boundaries that he knows he needs, but no one can put up boundaries around unrecognized vulnerabilities - no one can prepare for the 'unknown unknowns'.

I see hope. Here’s what you have going in your favour...you’re not afraid to D. The difference between your first R attempt and now is the amount of IC your H has had and he knows you’ll stick to your side of the line in the sand.

Do you think you’ll be okay no matter which you choose - R or D? You’re already living apart and you and the children are doing well. What might happen if you R and you discover another affair? Do YOU think it’s worth the risk? If you choose R, make sure you’re doing it because YOU want to, not for him. This is your choice now...is your life going to be better (however to quantify better) than if you divorce?

Hope, in this particular corner of the world, is a double-edged sword at best and a good old fashioned four-letter word at worst.

My personal take is hope is what got my marriage in trouble in the first place, we relied on the magic of hope to overcome the relationship drift we found ourselves in.

That aside, hard work is worth paying attention to. You noted he is asking himself the tough questions and making connections he has never made and needed to make.

That's visible change. Some WS never budge an inch.

One line jumped out at me:

He’s terrified he’ll have an affair again somewhere down the line...

Well, if he's terrified, how is that supposed to make you feel?

It certainly means he has a long way to go. My wife is beyond certain she will not turn outside of our marriage again, simply because she has a tough time witnessing the pain she created. She found none of what happened worth any of the results.

What your WS is saying is that he thinks it might be worth the risk again.

Hard work over hope. Actions over words.

It can happen, but your husband will have to show his work and prove it -- if he is honest enough to admit he still has worries, that's a good sign -- provided he goes from terrified to safe.

I don't have any advice but my WH and I are separated. Its been 5.5 months of separation. I too am waiting to see long term progress before I consider R. Telling our 6 year old he was moving out was the toughest conversation we have ever had. I refuse to turn their world upside down just to be back here in a few years. I need real proof. So as he continues IC, reading, self reflection, and transparency. I sit and watch and wait. I gave myself till the anniversary of DDay to observe. It tough with kids because you can't just constantly change their world. I need to feel confident that if I do decide to R that we won't be back here due to infidelity. I have an attorney and all my ducks in a row if I decide that R is just not something I can do, or if I don't see the consistent effort to be a better person. It's not easy.

All I can say is watch and wait. Don't rush it. My kids have settled into the routine we have now. My oldest still wishes for us to be together. We do stuff as a family to keep that part as normal as possible since we are not separating ourselves from the family just from each other. I wish you the best. I do hope he is able to truly work on changing himself, not just for you but for your kids.

Thank you for the replies so far. You've given me some things I need to think about. I'll post more later when I'm at my computer, but I just wanted to say I appreciate people taking the time to write. This road can feel so lonely at times, and it's nice to have good, smart, and honest people in the trenches too (though of course I wish none of us had to be here).

More soon.

Stay separated and watch how he changes and improves (if he does). Trust yourself to know what real change looks like. Keep being a kickass coparent. Don't hope, observe and then act based on facts.

He says he’s 100% committed to reconciling and that he’s working on everything he needs to do/understand to be a safe partner.

That's nice that he says that, but what is he doing? To get to a safer place he has to be that person, not just acknowledge that person with his mind and his vocal cords.

Being a therapist I imagine you will have a unique struggle here, since your training leads you to examine people through what they say. It sounds like you don't shy away from your own feelings though, and go full-on clinical when dealing with your wayward spouse. What he says means very little at this point, and he must make some very deep core changes in order to successfully travel away from the man who wreaked so much havoc in your marriage.

As for hope? I have found it best to put hope in its place as a secondary motivation. To my reasoning, the best place to be is 100% assured that you personally will be fine if you decide to end the marriage, 100% fine if the marriage continues and you build it into what you want it to be. And also resolved to survive and thrive if he takes your trust and betrays you all over again. That way your bases are covered, and you can hope for whatever outcome, without trusting to that hope to carry anything. That may sound cynical, but infidelity has the tendency to sour even the most romantic of souls.

Above all remember to take care of yourself, and see to your own healing first. Never take any blame for his terrible decisions, and don't settle for anything less then the best possible outcome. How long you give your situation to improve is always up to you, and don't feel any kind of pressure from yourself or anyone else to divorce or reconcile. Be fair to yourself first.

All the best as you make your way through this awful situation.

Hi Mamabear.

I'd stay the course you are on at the moment.

One of the lessons I've learned here, for which I'm incredibly grateful, is that we don't have to make any decisions fast.

While there is always hope when a WS is digging into their "whys", there is no way for you to know today if he is going to be able to do enough to be a safe partner for you.

Changing the way you are hard-wired from your childhood takes a long time. It's a lot of hard work. It's extremely uncomfortable. You've got a lot of great insight into who he is as a person. I'm sure being a therapist has been helpful in that regard.

I know it's hard to rest in this limbo and not wonder/hope about the future. I've had to learn to focus on the now because I was making myself crazy trying to figure out what was going to happen down the road. What I do know is that whatever happens, I will be ok. So will you.

((((Mamabear))))

Sisoon-- You got to me when you said...

Does it matter that much?

Because you're right, it shouldn't matter. And yet, it still does. Which means I know I'm not doing a good enough job detaching. I think he's pretty genuinely horrified of his behaviors, so I do think he's changing for himself and not just to R, but I need to think on that a bit more based on what his words and actions say/have said. I'm a helper by nature and by profession, and while I know I can't pull him along this road... like I REALLY know that, I need to be better about not getting caught up in the hope. I COULD divorce him immediately and absorb the financial hit, in truth, but I would rather not, and your statement made me realize it's not all about the money... I am holding out hope...

Which brings me to...

Oldwounds, you said

Hope, in this particular corner of the world, is a double-edged sword at best and a good old fashioned four-letter word at worst.

I have been known to say these past two years that hope is the **ultimate** 4-letter word. Double edged? I feel like it has like 12 very sharp edges. But anyway, that's where I'm stuck, I guess. If I don't have hope, I guess I do just want to suck up any financial loss and move ON with my life. If I keep the hope, than I can keep on with this marital purgatory. And that's where it all comes back to... detach. I need to work on bettering me to better me and let him better him to better him. Even if that doesn't bring us back together, we will be better parents and co-parents and future partners to other people for it. It's just so hard not to get tunnel vision of keeping my family in tact. Anyone have good tips for staying the course when in "watching" mode? Any good mantras or self-talk for not getting caught up in wanting to save the marriage or save the WS?

Mindjob, you hit 2 buttons for me here:

Being a therapist I imagine you will have a unique struggle here, since your training leads you to examine people through what they say. It sounds like you don't shy away from your own feelings though, and go full-on clinical when dealing with your wayward spouse.

You are right with the first sentence, and I am acutely aware of that. I do tend to be a words person. I want honest and accurate expressions of feelings (which WS has always struggled with). And now, in this sh*tshow of a situation, I find I want BOTH. I want the words and the actions to MATCH, 100% of the time. I want to hear and see the remorse and intent to repair. We will see if WS can do it, I'm truly not sure.

And the second sentence... ugh. Up until this last D-day, I tried way too hard to explain his own behaviors to him. You know, I was still stuck if if I could explain it just the right thing he would FINALLY GET IT. I was way too much therapist and not enough hurt wife. I have to say, this last d-day knocked any desire to do that out of my system. I finally realized that I couldn't want this enough for the both of us and that I didn't want to be married to someone who couldn't own his own stuff and who didn't 100% want to be married to me. I have since been the betrayed wife only, and wow, what a more more comfortable (and healthier!) place to sit, not owning ANY piece of his mess.

Strugglebus and others--

Trust yourself to know what real change looks like.

Any tips on how to do this from people who have been through false R and then (maybe?!) entered real R. I feel like my intuition has failed me and now it's broken. I can SEE he's uncomfortable when discussing his change process, and I do find some comfort in that. But obviously in the past I thought/wanted to think he was doing the work and he wasn't. I guess part of this process is figuring out how to trust myself again, and I'm struggling there. Open to suggestions.

I do 100% know I'll be okay however this plays out. Divorce, R, or false R and another affair, I've got this. I'm strong and our children are thriving and I'll always always put them and I first, even if he can't.

Thanks again for all of your thoughtful responses-- very helpful.

It might sound stupid, but if you offer the gift of reconciliation... again... i wouldnt do it without exacting a literal cost from him. A postnup... collateral... some THING that he holds valuable for either financial or sentimental reasons.

Like a test hoop for jim to jump through.

That recommendation isn't normal around here, and i think the collateral thing is something only i have pushed for... but.

You are actually at a disadvamtage based on your profession.

But that doesn't answer your REAL question. Your real question is why does all this shit I learned to help others... why doesn't it feel like it helps me?

Or am i reading too much into your post?

Nah, you're not reading too much into it. It's not that I wonder why the skills I teach others don't work for me. Because truly, this experience has forced me to grow personally SO much and I have significantly more insight into my own sh*t than I did before this happened. I'm a better therapist now (I only see kids and adolescents... adults, ick :)). I know I can't see this objectively because of my emotions.

I DO often wonder how as a therapist I missed the signs that this is who my husband is. But alas, that's hindsight and pointless, so I try not to get stuck there. Trust me, it's a convo that I've had often with my own therapist!

I have asked him about a post nup and he has agreed to sign one. Funny you mention it, I was going to call my attorney today and schedule another consultation for this purpose. A quick google search says they are most often held up in my state.

Will see how that goes...

So... from a therapist pov, you're probably gonna find this funny...

Are you journaling?

Some random thoughts in response to posts...

An ex-therapist of mine told me that R required 3 healings: I heal me, W heals her, together we (re)build our M.

It really helped me to repeat that to myself frequently.

Detachment is necessary for D. Attachment is necessary for R. I read you - at least part of you - to still want R, but you're not sure it's attainable, so you're afraid to commit. Isn't being afraid to commit entirely appropriate now? Isn't trusting your H now awfully close to selling yourself out?

But it looks like R may be attainable. Why not take your time to observe your H? My W's A was 4.5 months; the whole sick relationship lasted 15 months, but the sex and the lying started 4.5 months before d-day.

I waited 90 days to commit to R - after I saw 90 days of work. Your H violated vows for a lot longer than my W did. Doesn't it make sense to give yourself permission to observe your H for a lot longer than 90 days?

You've got no deadlines and a number of options. I want you to arrive at the best solution for you, not the quickest.

Really, logic says your best move right now is to wait and watch, so that's what you should do.

Does your H rely on you for any therapy? If so, can you stop it. My W was a therapist, and I never forget that a client doesn't have sex with his IC.

I think it's true for ALL BSes that we lost the ability to read our WSes's non-verbal communications before d-day. As an IC, you know the solution for that - make things (maybe that should be 'everything') explicit.

I think we all start to relearn how to interpret our WSes's non-verbals, but I think a relationship rebuilds better if you ask questions if you're not sure what the non-verbals mean.

I DO often wonder how as a therapist I missed the signs that this is who my husband is.

Be easy on yourself -- you're trained to look for signs with patients, at home, as married partner, you're supposed to see the best in the person you're with.

Ready for the job I had right before the A? Military intel and counter intel, it was all about threat assessment and I was great at my job. I vastly underestimated AP, he seemed like a completely goofy dude.

When things got weird, I bought into the idea that he was a married dad with two sons like me, he couldn't possibly try to mess it up for his family and mine? And of course, my wife would never...

Yeah.

Anyway, it is not on you to know the person you trust most is trying to deceive you.

OMG Oldwounds, that helped to read. I've been feeling stupid and beating myself up for not figuring it out too! Mamabear, I have a psychology degree and am known among friends and coworkers for being really good at figuring people's motivations out. Just not my spouse, apparently, lol. So you aren't alone in this.

NTV, I did giggle when I read this:

So... from a therapist pov, you're probably gonna find this funny...

Are you journaling?

I have always been into journaling, my whole life, until I had kids. I think I could never settle into it enough without interruption? I'm not sure, but I stopped. I think I'm sort of afraid to start again. My initial post was the first time I ever wrote out the whole story, and even then, that's without many horrifying details.

I do have a self-compassion practice/mantra I do every day on my way into work...

"May I know my own worth

May I trust the journey

May I live in love."

I love it.

And I go have a gratitude practice I try to do every night before bed. But... sigh... I should probably get back to journaling.

Sisoon- Thank you for your insightful thoughts. You're exactly right. Detachment versus hope. I appreciate it. I am impatient, I want my life back, one way or the other, but I think I do just need to wait and watch.

Oldwounds and DevastatedDee-- just... thank you. I appreciate knowing I'm not alone in those thoughts.

So... today is our 7 year anniversary. He asked to take me out this weekend. I'm inclined to go. I have 0 desire to celebrate the anniversary but I appreciate that he put in the effort to find/book a baby-sitter and plan something. Bad idea? Is that not detaching enough? Can I "date him" without committing to R, or is that going to make a mess? But if I don't take the opportunities to talk with him, I won't be able to feel/see any changes or lack thereof. I really do have 0 desire to try to change him at this point, or to be his therapist, or to try to make him see my side, or any of that. I am curious about the work he's doing and his willingness to share that with me. Thoughts?

Thoughts?

There is no time limit when trying to assess whether you want to make a run at reconciliation or just be done.

We've had a couple anniversaries since dday, our 29th, I was still pretty much walking around in shock. It was weird and my wife was giving me a lot of room to process it all.

This summer was our 30th anniversary. Some anxiety leading up to that one for sure. We changed plans a half dozen times and decided on a simple road trip in the mountains. Road trips are really good for just talking about anything.

But spending time with him is a good way to see if he is changing, is learning or trying to do both. As long as he understands going in that one nice date night ain't gonna make it all good.