SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have heard Gottman mentioned many times since d-day. I am wondering if any of you have experience (good or bad) and if you recommend Gottman-trained therapists. I have been researching Gottman online and have found a few articles challenging Gottman's scientific research results and methods, but I was wondering if the counseling methods are sound.

I am asking because something posted in a support group (not sure if here or elsewhere) led me to follow Gottman Institute on Facebook and today a notice of a two-day seminar in my area popped up on my timeline. While it is unlikely we could attend the seminar, we might benefit from some of the materials. But I just wanted to see if there were any folks here with experience or knowledge about the Gottman institute and their methods, reputation, etc.

A counselor on their Gottman-trained list is located in our neighborhood. He has excellent reviews, is state certified, and is on the Psychology Today list of therapists. I guess before I suggest this therapist to my wife, who is negative about therapy due to some of our past terrible experiences, I would like to know more from anyone who might have experience.

[This message edited by OneInTheSame at 11:22 AM, June 17th (Sunday)]

The PT list is just a list, not an endorsement by PT.

I like Gottman's theory. It both makes sense and is based on close observation. But the success of therapy depends more on the therapist than on the theory, and more on the client than either.

Your R sounds shaky. IMO, and based on yourposts, that's because your W won't deal with her issues. I'd tell you to make IC a requirement, but I know that's much easier said than done.

If you can't make it a requirement, I recommend making a strong suggestion.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:33 AM, June 17th (Sunday)]

I read an article in the Washington Post a while back by John Gottman. In it he stated the following:

An affair is traumatic for any monogamous relationship. “Extra-marital affairs are responsible for the breakdown of most marriages that end in divorce,” an article on Marriage.com reads. Today.com offers a similar analysis: “Cheating is one of the main drivers of divorce.”

While affairs can destroy the foundation of trust upon which a marriage is built, the cause of divorce typically precedes the affair. In a study from the Divorce Mediation Project, 80 percent of divorced men and women cited growing apart and loss of a sense of closeness to their partner as the reason for divorce. Only 20 to 27 percent blamed their separation on an extramarital affair. In their clinical work, John and Julie Gottman learned that partners who have affairs are usually driven to them not because of a forbidden attraction but because of loneliness. There were already serious, if subtle, problems in the marriage before the affair occurred.

I did not find that encouraging and subsequently disregarded the advice to find a Gottman certified therapist.

There were already serious, if subtle, problems in the marriage before the affair occurred.

Every relationship has problems - heck my dog and I sometimes disagree about where we walk - but we don't have affairs because of them.

Add the human tendency to rewrite history to justify our behaviour and you have the basis for a business model which sounds good but is highly dubious in practice.

My WH and I saw a Gottman trained MC right after dday.

We found her somewhat helpful.

I don’t think she had much experience in infidelity.

She got us thru the initial “hump” of dday.

But

We switched therapists after about 6 sessions.

I agree with the concerns about Gottman view of pre-A problems in M.

Frankly, it may be a great method, but I’d want someone with LOTS of infidelity experience, regardless of their methods. Otherwise, ONLY after some IC and only when BS has had enough recovery to look at those non-A issues and the couple can receive/act on help with the communication piece. Maybe when forgiveness is in sight?

I’m nowhere near that place,

Every relationship has problems - heck my dog and I sometime s disagree about where we walk - but we don't have affairs because of them.

Add the human tendency to rewrite history to justify our behaviour and you have the basis for a business model which sounds good but is highly dubious in practice.

I do not know all that much about Gottman’s theories - apart from his 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, which to my mind make eminent sense.

Just wanted to point out that correlation does not equal causation.

Lazarus,

I am by no means at Gottman Expert, nor an apologist for his theories but I will say this...that quote may be close to the truth for my marriage and my W's affairs.

In a study from the Divorce Mediation Project, 80 percent of divorced men and women cited growing apart and loss of a sense of closeness to their partner as the reason for divorce. Only 20 to 27 percent blamed their separation on an extramarital affair. In their clinical work, John and Julie Gottman learned that partners who have affairs are usually driven to them not because of a forbidden attraction but because of loneliness. There were already serious, if subtle, problems in the marriage before the affair occurred.

This was true, but most BS think the blame may be pointed at them. In my case it was her that had drawn away and started lying to justify behavior. My fault in this was that I did not recognize it.

Further...

Add the human tendency to rewrite history to justify our behaviour

This too existed in my W's affairs. She felt somewhat disconnected (because of her thinking and filters) so when the opportunities presented themselves, she magnified this to give herself "permission".

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts rolling around my head the past few days. In the end, many of the major theorist or practitioners, Gottman, Perel, Glass, you name your poison...whether you totally buy into their viewpoint or not, I usually find something that I can learn from.

There were already serious, if subtle, problems in the marriage before the affair occurred.

From my favorite RomCom "When Harry Met Sally"

Harry and his male friend, Jess, are at a football game talking.

Jess: Marriages don't break up on account of infidelity. Its just a symptom that something else is wrong.

Harry: Uh huh. Well, that symptom is fucking my wife.

I had concluded that I don't care for Gottman's approach either as it is similar to Jess's thoughts.

SisterMilkshake,

Maybe I am saying it wrong.

I think when most BS hear that the infidelity grew out of a problem in the marriage, they, like me, feel like we have some part in what was wrong. We already fell rejected and any number of emotions from the assault on our self-worth, self-image and self-esteem that comes from DDay. So when we hear someone say there were issues in the marriage, we tend to think it was us....

So many times when the general public hears of infidelity, they wonder what the BS did wrong that their WS had an affair. So when Gottman says

There were already serious, if subtle, problems in the marriage before the affair occurred.

We BS, generally point the finger back at ourselves. "What was wrong with me that she/he decided to cheat?"

In my case, when we dug into the issues, we found stuff that I could have done better (nobody's perfect) But the major underlying issues in our marriage were with her. Attachment issues, depression, anxiety, lack of self-esteem, etc.

When those issues started to be addressed, our recovery became probable. If we had only addressed the infidelity, long term recovery was not likely.

So I am not so sure Gottman is far off when he says that there were serious underlying issues with the marriage. The symptom could very well be what is fucking my wife, but the disease was all the other bullshit she was carrying around and not dealing with. Once she dealt with the disease, the symptoms went away.

I hope that make sense.

I understand your point, woundedbear, I think you were saying it right.

I can't say our marriage was healthy when MisterSIster started his LTA. I know many marriages aren't when the affair occurs. Many here, though, insist they had a happy marriage. But their spouse still became a WS.

The common denominator is the WS. They are the ones with the issues. It isn't anything in the marriage that causes infidelity, even if there are problems in the marriage. No one is "driven" to have an affair. They choose to have an affair.

I am not saying Gottman is the worst. I am saying that I wouldn't want my FWH being able to latch onto the problems in our marriage as being the springboard for his LTA. And, he would have. He tried. Glass doesn't let that shit fly.

I'm going to disagree here. I don't think I did anything 'wrong'. I was suffering too but I didn't just go find a random woman to make me feel wanted. It's all on her. Yes, we were struggling and there was a valid reason but it's the sort of thing that is going to happen over a lifetime. Doesn't mean you have to and chase someone else. I was suffering from lack of affection as much as she was. There was not a single thought of infidelity in my mind. Plenty of other feelings of fear, hopelessness, panic, whatever. But not that. I prayed we woud work it out in time. She actively chased men to make her feel better.

Has backfired badly because I still have my integrity and she does not. There is NO excuse. That is Bullshit. It's a choice to stick a knife in the back of the one person you are supposed to protect because you are a piece of shit, selfish, childish idiot.

There were already serious, if subtle, problems in the marriage before the affair occurred.

I think I'm with wounded bear. It's crystal clear to me that that statement means the WS has internal issues that affect the M negatively.

Remember, on SI we see many Ms fail not because of the A(s) but because of the WSes' behavior after the A.

Or, IOW, many Ms fail after As because the WS doesn't/won;t resolve her internal issues that enabled the As.

Gottman looks at the behaviors of people in good/happy/healthy/etc. and bad/unhappy/unhealthy/etc. Ms. I imagine the therapy assumed that if you want to move form one to the other, adopting the behaviors of the state you want to be in will help.

None of this contravenes what SIers think is good practice: IC is one of the best ways for a WS to change from cheater to good partner.

Nothing in Gottman contradicts the SI rule of thumb that IC is more important than MC.

Of course, Gottman training may not help ICs....

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:31 PM, June 21st (Thursday)]

There were already serious, if subtle, problems in the marriage before the affair occurred.

My problem with the quote it the bolded word. He says there were already serious, if subtle, problems in the marriage. I feel the quote would be better "there were already, serious, if subtle, problems in the WS" before the infidelity.

SisterMilkshake,

"there were already, serious, if subtle, problems in the WS" before the infidelity.

This is a much more accurate statement.

OITS

We did the Gottman weekend just a few weeks after I found out. (WAY to soon )

However, I learned a lot from it.

About 3 yrs later we started seeing one the their top guy's here in our area.

I thought he was great! Yeah, H not so much. We saw him for a bout 6 months, although not regularly as it was summer and vacations, blah, blah.

We did NOT deviate from the infidelity! Every single session was holding his feet to the fire. Consequently H declared himself "done" the session I said I had no more questions. Just when we were going to embark on the next phase, learning NEW ways to communicate, he f'g quits

I still have all the books/workbooks but they just seem to collect dust.

IF your WS is TRULY not all in (and I think I read you are still struggling) it may not be of any benefit. Just like we learn on here, about them needed to be all in, it is exactly the same for the program.

If their heart is not truly there it would be a waste of money and time (and YOU may end up with even more hurts! )

I still do believe in the philosophy of it today. (just wish my H did too)

SisterMilkshake,

"there were already, serious, if subtle, problems in the WS" before the infidelity.

This is a much more accurate statement.

I'm possibly the wrong person to comment - My XW has a mal/non-functioning amygdala (technically she's a psychopath) - she (and her brother?) inherited the faulty gene(s) from her father. No programme would have made any difference.

I’ve read one of Gottman’s books for MC with WH, and I thoroughly disagreed with an A being a symptom of a troubled marriage. Even if things suck, there are thousands of things to do other than cheat. Like go read a damn book or take a hike. Their view of the symptom is (IMO) a thinly veiled attempt to rationalize affairs without assigning blame.

I say blame away! Even more so, since I know that WH affair was rooted in his own failings- alcohol dependence, anxiety, and a whole host of other issues. I will shout “not my problem” from the rooftops too; I didn’t coerce WH into having sex with someone else.

Funny in hindsight, I thought the only major issue with the marriage was his love of beer... hahaha!

Is Gottman looking to blame or point out issues? Those are not the same thing.

Why an A happened in the M is not the same as why a spouse chose to handle their issues with an A. It CAN be the same thing if the spouse had the issue but the marriage was good. But that is not always the case. It wasn't for me.

Which issue is more important, the marriage problems or the spouse coping problems? Does it depend on the marriage?

Once I owned my coping problems, I was still left with my marriage problems.

The comments are helping me to see that like almost anything, the Gottman method is fraught with its own problems. I have not done a great deal of reading or research into it, which is why I posted this question. So far I am 50/50 on thinking this therapist will be my best choice.

I haven't needed to make a decision lately because we have both been down with seriously messed up bronchitis and URIs. The stress of her hours coupled with our anniversary fight took us both down. Kind of a natural cooling off period, so to speak.

Even if things suck, there are thousands of things to do other than cheat. Like go read a damn book or take a hike.

Funny, this is what I thought in the months leading up to my wife's initiating her A. She had been under considerable stress and off work with an industrial injury and surgery, and I suggested she check with her physical therapist to see if she could go biking for part of her rehab. So we bought her a trail bike, since we live in a bicycle-trail rich area, some along parks and rivers, so they would not be boring. She got bored, or so she said, and picked a park about 20 miles from here. Yep, you guessed it . . . biking became cover for her meeting up with her OW at the park! Then she discovered kayak rentals from a beach at the park -- oh boy, I was all enthusiastic for her! Practically pushed her out the door for her dose of daily exercise.

What a mistake! Played for a fool . . .

What I have always wanted was a counselor who would look her straight in the face and say "Shame on you for taking advantage of such a generous wife!" Does anyone know of one?