SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I will try to keep this as short as possible, but apologies in advance. Specific advice sought is at the end of this post, if you want to skip the venting.

I discovered my husband's year-long emotional affair about 1 month ago from reading texts on his phone. I knew something was going on since last year. I just didn't know the extent of it.

Backstory:

Before Covid hit, we planned to live overseas temporarily and found a friend of a friend (couple + kids) to rent our home. WH was in contact with the woman over text and extremely keen to rent it to her. There were many encounters between our two families, which were too suspicious to be coincidences. I was right, they were orchestrated. She would tell him what her family was doing and told him to "come at the same time, wink wink." To his credit, WH didn't bite. So when he told her what our family was doing, she would turn up.

Then she would start making dubious excuses to come over to our house alone (dropping off toys for our child, picking up food from the store for him, giving him some of her birthday cake) and she would always come when he was alone. This was too suspicious to also be a coincidence. I found no evidence of coordination between them, but WH told her his weekly routine, our son's daycare routine, which person drove our cars, and I would often see her car parked at the end of our street. WH claimed he was resisting her visits - a lie; he enthusiastically welcomed every one of them. He also claimed these visits didn't mean anything because she was doing this for their mutual friend - also a lie; I asked the friend and they confirmed she didn't visit or gift them anything.

WH kept talking about her, with a smirk/grin on his face. He's said many, many times that he finds her very attractive. I don't see it, but she does remind me of his mother, which creeped me out at first. But apparently that's normal for men. I witnessed one of her visits just as I was driving off and the body language was just so obvious from both of them - wide grins, beams on their faces, longing gazes.

I could see where all this was going, so in June last year I asked WH to stop all this. He promised to distance himself from this woman, and I trusted him because I saw her around less often. About 4 months ago, she moved across the road from us (not directly, a few houses down). She called him over to collect toys and he went with our son behind my back. He swore that it was just one time, so I gave him a pass.

The discovery:

I always wondered how far things got between them. A month ago I looked at messages on his phone. There were 1:1 chats between them, as well as a 3-way group chat with the mutual friend who introduced us (but 80% of the conversation was between WH and the woman). Between those two chats, he texted her every single day, for hours, up to the end of December. There were 8000 texts between them in total! He hardly spoke to me last year. Now I know why. Even when we were on vacation, he was constantly texting her about what he was doing, not present with his wife and son.

I read most of their messages. Everything that I felt was off made complete sense. He lied to me about things and there were many lies by omission - for example, the texts reveal he snuck over to her place alone a second time. He later admitted there was actually a third visit. They would both say degrading things about their spouses and try to impress one another. He would give her emotional support for her problems. They would fawn over one another. She would solicit compliments about her looks. The text transcript first read as courting, getting to know each other, and then eventually companionship, where they would share details about their day and things happening in their life, etc.

There weren't sexual comments, but plenty of flirty comments disguised with double meanings, primarily from the AP. For example, she said she was so grateful that our mutual friend introduced them, she felt they were so compatible, hoped that he wouldn't move overseas, and she wished so much to be neighbors because "it will be so much fun". WH said he wished for the same. When they discussed playdates for our kids, she wanted them on weekdays, and without her kids - wow. In their texts, I found hints that she enjoys attention from neighbors, hence her desperation to become neighbors.

The confrontation:

When confronted, WH said I was overreacting, "just jealous" and being unreasonable. He still keeps playing the innocent, misunderstood victim card, insists he never had any intention to pursue this woman, just thinks she's pretty, and that "what they have" is just a friendship. It's true that the texts didn't imply any physical interaction. He swears he didn't touch her, not even in a friendly way. When they were alone, they were just talking. He makes excuses for his actions, even her actions, e.g. "she was probably just bored being a SAHM."

After confronting him about the AP a second time, he promised to stop talking to her. He exited the group chat and deleted her contact. She noticed and asked him if she did anything wrong, he told her she didn't and that it was "just complicated". I had to force him to block her on FB and I blocked her number on this phone & chat apps without his knowledge. This must have sent her the message because she is no longer friendly when she sees him from across the road.

This ticks all the boxes of an EA. Our marriage counselor refers to this as an affair. Even after I asked him to end it with this woman last year, he just limited their interactions to texting and was being more covert. There were many lies, sneaking around, trying to hide their flirtation in plain sight. He gaslights and changes details to minimize his actions. I saved a copy of all the texts because I knew he would lie and gaslight. Even after 2 counseling sessions, he still feels no guilt or shame, because he sees himself as innocent, but he does now understand how his actions damaged our marriage. He has apologized for his actions, but I don't get the sense that there is genuine remorse, at most just regret.

While looking through his phone, I wondered whether this was a pattern of behavior. I saw texts to a work colleague where he was being overly friendly. Turns out they often have lunch alone together. When I confronted him about this, he was again defensive - "I was just making her feel welcome to the team" - and changed his phone password, while insisting he has nothing to hide.

The hypocrisy lies in that he was cheated on by his ex-fiance. His father abandoned a previous wife & children and has been flirting around with a woman, which WH scolds him for. Yet he doesn't see an issue when he does the exact same thing as them.

Reconciliation:

Our MC has been helping us understand why this happened - the unmet needs in the relationship. We have been having marital issues for 3 years and I can see why WH was seeking validation and attention elsewhere. Although it was his decision to cheat.

It has been so difficult dealing with this - I often cry when overwhelmed with the feelings of anger, hurt, betrayal, worthlessness. Although I want to reconcile, this man doesn't seem very loyal and behaves inappropriately with women he's attracted to. We've talked about boundaries and rules moving forward and he seems to understand. Our sense of morality and loyalty are different. Sure, I work in a male dominated industry, but always behave like my husband is watching and wouldn't do anything disrespectful. Whereas he seems to chase whatever makes him feel good.

Our MC said to try to rebuild our marriage, and if nothing changes after the sessions, we should just separate so that our child doesn't live in an unhealthy family environment. We have many more problems than this EA. Although I don't think my husband is a bad person, he was raised by narcissistic parents and uses their abusive tactics when we fight. He doesn't seem to be capable of empathy and is drawn to dominant, needy people, who he devotes his time and attention to. So there's a lot for me to think about. I know these other issues are outside the scope of this forum. If we didn't have a child, I probably would have left already.

Advice welcome:

If you read this far, thank you :)

Because AP lives so close, I fear that they will rekindle their relationship, especially as WH didn't send her a clear message. I would appreciate advice on how to prevent that. We bought our home in the area for the schools, though I don't mind moving just to be rid of AP from our lives (moving overseas is unlikely to happen anymore).

I don't know how to make WH understand that this was an emotional affair, which is as damaging as a physical affair. He keeps claiming innocence. With this mindset, there's no guarantee that it won't happen again. He just wants to rugsweep. Whenever I bring up this EA, I get "not this again" attitude.

I've been thinking about revealing everything to AP's husband. I think he is oblivious to her activities and disloyalty because he seems too busy with his work.

[This message edited by PurpleMedusa at 12:10 AM, March 9th (Tuesday)]

Reconciliation:

Our MC has been helping us understand why this happened - the unmet needs in the relationship. We have been having marital issues for 3 years and I can see why WH was seeking validation and attention elsewhere. Although it was his decision to cheat.

I'm sorry this happened to you. Also, your MC sucks. This is effectively blameshifting as far as I'm concerned. You are right the decision to cheat was his. You could even be right he had unmet needs that were contributing to his vulnerability to cheat. What you are wrong about is that one led to the other. That's not how decisions about issues and boundaries work. If you don't know why his boundaries broke down under the stressed conditions before, there is no guarantee they won't break down again. I dearly hope you aren't trying to control the environment and meet his every need.

Get the book "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. That could open his eyes.

Second, I have a hard time believing this wasn't physical. It could have been just an EA, but I'm doubtful. A full timeline of the affair that he is willing to put to polygraph would be helpful.

Affairs are like a drug. The right answer is to have no access. No contact with the AP from now until forever. If that includes you moving, so be it. Know that moving away won't STOP an affair if your husband wants to have one. Moving away just makes it less tempting. In the same way you can't prevent him from having an affair by "meeting his needs" you also can't prevent an affair by taking away the easy supply. It just helps to prevent it from occurring again.

Your husband has MAJOR work to do, because right now you only have minimization, blameshifting, and rugsweeping. Not reconciliation.

He keeps claiming innocence. With this mindset, there's no guarantee that it won't happen again. He just wants to rugsweep. Whenever I bring up this EA, I get "not this again" attitude.

This was my H’s first 4 year EA. He refused to admit he did anything wrong. In his mind no sex = no affair.

It finally ended and it was rugswept. 15 years later he had another EA but this time he was planning to D me.

The lesson I learned is that letting him get away with his first affair allowed him to think it was ok to have the second affair.

Don’t be me.

If he won’t admit he did anything wrong you may have no choice but to D. Because you are right — his selfish behavior will continue.

During my H’s second affair I suffered for 6 months. Until I found out he was still lying and cheating. Then I stood up to him. Told him I was D him. And he had to leave.

I can tell you that move restored my power and self esteem in one move. And I now wear the pants in this marriage. And if he does not like it, he knows where the door is.

@This0is0Fine: Thank you for the book recommendation. I found a PDF copy online.

I appreciate the calling out of the MC. In no way do I blame myself for WH's affair and I don't think it's my responsibility to prevent this from happening again - it's his. The MC is not wrong about the unmet needs in our relationship though. I agree with her that we both need to work on that aspect, whether this affair happened or not.

Even if the marriage was fine, I still feel WH has a capacity to cheat because he has poor role models and questionable judgement of appropriate behavior. I already mentioned in the post that his father cheats, and he idolizes his father. His mother is excessively emotionally attached to WH and sometimes behaves like a needy spouse more than a mother. He thought AP was doing those things "because she's a very nice person". MC blatantly told him AP was hitting on him. His normal meter and ability to detect shady people (he is susceptible to scams) is just broken.

I too am skeptical about it not being physical. They preferred to meet up alone, so there's obviously things they don't feel comfortable doing in front of their spouses. I didn't find any remotely sexual texts between them, but also know that he wouldn't be stupid enough to leave those kinds of messages on his phone. In the chat app, I saw a couple of "this message was deleted". I looked him straight in the eye to watch for any flinches, but he swears he never laid a finger on her. But I'm not naive and still suspect.

@The1stWife: Thank you for the warning. Last year when I first suspected him of the affair, I lawyered up. When I found out the affair continued a month ago, I started doing everything the lawyer advised and got support from my family and friends to move on. I haven't told WH this or mentioned it in MC. I wasn't sure if it was a good idea, as it could derail the reconciliation efforts. But I'm thinking I need to get the message across that I absolutely will not tolerate cheating.

Would appreciate any advice for reconciliation. Is it helpful to keep bringing up the affair?

[This message edited by PurpleMedusa at 11:10 PM, March 8th (Monday)]

It’s a good idea to do the 180.

If he won’t admit anything — why reconcile?? He’s disrespectful to you. He stomps all over your marriage. He lies to you. He focuses on another woman and treats you poorly.

And then won’t admit it. 😡😡😡😡😡

Oh even when you think the counselor has convinced them even if they didn’t have sex with someone it still was an affair outside the marriage. T he fools will revert back to nothing wrong done so no guilt. That is what keeps me in turmoil 3 years later. He says he owns it but I just get the feeling what he has is regret he got caught not remorse for having done wrong. I think this kind of affair is more difficult to get them to see the wrong they have done therefore harder to regain trust that it won’t be repeated if temptation raises it’s ugly head again. My heart goes out to you this is beyond painful and you need to get that piece of filth out of your life. I’d tell her husband and show the texts. See if he thinks it is nothing and innocent. She can get her ego boost from someone else’s husband.

Our MC has been helping us understand why this happened - the unmet needs in the relationship. We have been having marital issues for 3 years and I can see why WH was seeking validation and attention elsewhere.

Your MC is full of crap and you'd do well to fire him/her. Let me tell you how I know...

My own WH went on a Craigslist binge six years ago, multiple partners, various degrees of emotional attachment. He even thought he was in love at one point. But ten years before that, I'd caught him out in some online shenanigans, porn, cybersexing, emotional affair, etc. In fact, I caught him out only two weeks before a planned meet-up. I'd already seen an attorney before I confronted him and I was bent on divorce, but he pretty much cried his way out of it and I settled on MC. As you might have guessed already, we too were bamboozled with the "unmet needs" model of therapy, which sounds so reasonable. I upped my wife game, and did my best pick-me polka, but within a couple of years, he was right back at it behind my back. By the time we reached the ten year mark, he had screwed up his nerve to go live and in person on Craigslist.

Of course, I was pretty shocked as you might imagine. I thought we were good. I thought his "needs" were met. Damned if I hadn't been turning myself inside out for a decade to make sure, right? The more I thought about it, the more I revisited what I knew about the "unmet needs model", the less it made sense. I was doing everything right and he still CHOSE to cheat.

Here's the fly in the "unmet needs" ointment...

Healthy ADULTS don't need to be validated. They validate internally. Healthy adults are self-fruitful in the matter of contentment and life satisfaction, and when things come up which make them unhappy, they address the cause and solve the problem. OTOH, the vast majority of cheaters cheat because they're seeking external validation. They are NOT emotionally healthy. They can't do it on their own. They've got a hole inside them and no amount of external validation will fill it. Certainly, the old and familiar validation of a spouse doesn't get the job done. Our "kibbles" are stale and boring. They don't create enough adrenaline anymore to make the cheater feel special. It's like getting an "atta boy" from your mom, right?

This is old pop-psy which is still being taught in schools and still selling books. But it's bullshit. NOTHING you can do (or fail to do) can MAKE another person throw away their core values and do something that's in this kind of opposition to good character. If you're a person who BELIEVES in fidelity, who VALUES fidelity, you don't cheat. End of story. Because when we truly value something we protect it. The cheater has a "but..." in his values system. ie. "I believe in fidelity, but... not if my needs aren't being met." For people like you and me, we have a "so..." in our values system. ie. "I believe in fidelity, so... I don't put myself in risky situations with the opposite sex." This is the BOUNDARY we create organically. We don't sit around planning it out. It just happens, because it's innate to our character to protect what we value. The cheater doesn't have those boundaries because he doesn't really honor his values. He only claims to.

I'm not saying that your marriage is over or that your WH can't change. What I am saying though is that this "unmet needs" model is NOT going to challenge him to clean up his flawed character. In fact, it allows him to offload responsibility onto the marriage and onto YOU. It's not your job to MAKE him feel (fill-in-the-blank-here). It never was. It's his job to control his feelings. You could have been doing everything exactly perfect for the entire length of your marriage, and he would still have cheated... because there's NOTHING in his character stopping him and he has no coping mechanism to fall back on when he feels unvalidated, inadequate, unappreciated, etc.

It's HIS job to see that his "needs" get met. Sometimes that might mean negotiating with you, say if it's about sex or about the division of labor in your home, etc. But sometimes, it might mean that what he sees as a "need" is unhealthy in an adult, like external validation through attention and flattery.

MC's are there to treat the marriage. The marriage is the client. So, of course they're going to talk about communications, resentments and expectations. The MC doesn't want to alienate anyone, so s/he's looking to find balance on both sides. But marriages don't cheat. People do. The only way your WH is going to make a change that safeguards against further perfidy is by correcting his need for external validation and becoming an emotionally healthy adult whose deeds are as good as his word. No excuses, just honoring the things he claims to value. For that, I would recommend IC (individual counseling) with a therapist who is well-versed in adultery.

The last thing any newly-minted BS needs is to walk into an MC's office, believing that they've come to safe harbor, and being handed a copy of The Five Love Languages or some other "unmet needs" gobbledygook. It would be really nice if we actually did have the power to control our mate by giving them "acts of service" or "words of affirmation", but sadly, we aren't gods who can stop a cheater from seeking out his/her choice of adrenaline rush and new kibbles. Although, this kind of pop-psy suggests that their behavior is somehow our responsibility. The more you dig into this ridiculous line of thought, the more absurd it becomes.

Anyway... sorry for the lengthy post. Nothing fries my ass more than seeing new BS's being sold this bill of goods. I do think that there's a whole lot of motive, means, and opportunity in your WH's story though. It's not impossible that they didn't have sex, but man... I'd have to see a polygraph result to believe it if it were me. Maybe I'm just a bit jaded after my own experience, but adultery happens in about half of marriages and a year is a really long ramp-up.

I know your world is probably wrecked right now, but believe me, you're going to be okay. It takes time though and it's not easy, but we're all living proof that one way or the other, it gets better.

((hugs))

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 10:40 PM, March 8th (Monday)]

@Sadismynewname: My thoughts exactly! They just say what they think we want to hear. When I bring up the affair, WH says in a robotic, not-at-all genuine tone: "I know I hurt you. I know I crossed the line. I won't do it again." I had to ask him to elaborate and prove to me that he understands what "the line" is.

Oh gosh, that woman is vile. When we agreed to rent our home to her, she sent a list of renovation requests to suit her personal taste (landscaping, flooring replacement). WH did them all and more to impress her. I could see that she had WH's mutual friend wrapped around her finger too. From her problems she was sharing with them, I could clearly see that she's selfish, disloyal and deceptive. But they kept reassuring her what a wonderful, strong person she is, blah blah. I just rolled my eyes. Infatuation is blind.

I've been thinking about how to contact AP's husband. He's so elusive - has no social media accounts whatsoever. He's never home by himself. The only way I can think of to contact him is to stalk their house and approach him when he gets home from work. But I'm not willing to put in the effort to go that far yet.

@ChamomileTea: Thank you, I understand and totally agree about the "unmet needs" fallacy. I've been miserable in this marriage, but I didn't seek another man for comfort. My work colleagues are almost all male and I've formed good connections with many. But I'm careful to have lunch with the entire team, never have dinner alone with anyone on business trips. If another guy is chatting to me way too much, I shut it down. I don't seek emotional support from other men. I didn't decide to do any of these things consciously - it's just morally right by your partner.

WH's narcissistic parents really did a number on him. As a grown adult with wife & child, he still seeks their approval. He gravitates towards needy, clingy, demanding, controlling, dominating people and complies with their wishes. He gets validation when they reward him with approval. There's some empty hole that makes him susceptible to this dynamic in his relationships. He particularly likes seeking emotional connections with women, but they have been platonic and never worried me before. There was clearly a strong sexual pull towards the AP that made it difficult for WH to stop talking to her even when I asked several times.

It's so hard to find a good MC or IC. We've seen 2 MCs before and they weren't great. This one picks up the issues in our relationship quickly and follows Gottman principles, which makes a lot of sense to us. I will stick with her. But after reading comments here (thank you!), I might covertly fire her in regards to dealing with the affair.

TBH, it doesn't really make a difference to me whether WH and AP had sex or not. Their "friendship" did enough damage to our marriage. The texts decreased sharply when AP started working part time. So WH got discarded when she didn't need him to fill her boredom anymore. Her poor husband seems completely oblivious to her true nature.

[This message edited by PurpleMedusa at 5:47 AM, March 9th (Tuesday)]

Let me get this straight. You asked H to end things in June and that scheming little husband snatcher moved in across the road around November?

She's got it bad. I don't know, but I think she's looking to upgrade to a different husband. I'd show all those texts esp. the ones where they complain about their spouses, to her H.

Two more things struck me. You said you don't mind moving. I would sell so fast it'd make her falsies spin. Opportunity means a lot in affair world.

EAs are characterized by emotional intimacy, secrecy and sexual attraction.

I wonder if they never had a true friendship. It sounds like she was driving the relationship by becoming constantly physically available, forcing emotional intimacy by confiding her marital problems and getting your H to share thoughts and feelings with her instead of suggesting him to share these things with you, his wife.

She is no friend of the marriage. BTW, how does she treat you? Is she fake friendly or does she avoid you? Is she trying to get to know your children? (As a potential stepmom?) Is she trying to insert herself into your role or do/did they just sneak around behind your back?

In any case, she's not gone if she lives up the road.

The second thing is to ditch the MC and do not separate. Your H obviously needs IC.

This is just my opinion, but it's from reading stories on this site. Once you separate, if she wants, and I think she will, she would assume the role of closest confident and GF to your H. She'd be on him like a tick. You would take on a secondary role of mother only and adversary of theirs. An object standing in the way of your H's true happiness. It could be an uphill battle trying to return to a husband/wife dynamic again. Especially if their bond became unbreakable and she was the one he was leaning on when you were out of the picture.

So I'd ditch the MC, move and have your H write that NC (no contact) letter.

There is no need to explain. She knows exactly what she's doing. I just don't know if it's really ended or if your H wants to keep her on the back burner.

I'm not totally sure they aren't having a full blown physical affair right now.

So that's my advice. Get H into IC, sell the house, tell the OBS, and get your H to end the affair with a no contact letter.

I would also install some security cameras on the outside of your house. Or some Ring doorbells. Just so you can keep track of who all is coming and going every day.

@Ariopolis:

You asked H to end things in June and that scheming little husband snatcher moved in across the road around November?

Yes, that's right. The situation is a little more complicated than that (I'm withholding some details for anonymity). But essentially, she moved across the road because she was extremely keen to be neighbors with my husband. In fact, every month or so, she'd say "can you imagine if we were neighbors? It would be so much fun" and drop hints about getting "too much attention" from neighbors in the past. I asked WH what all these messages meant and he says, "oh, it's just like how good friends are excited to become neighbors". Well, she's clearly a serially cheater!

I think she just likes toying with other men. Her husband works a lot and probably neglects her. Honestly, I think she was using WH to fill her boredom and manipulated him with her flattery and fake generosity to get him hooked. Thinking about it, she didn't exactly give my husband support, she mostly talked about herself and her problems. The texts sharply decreased (from daily to weekly) once she found a part time job in December. She seemed more disinterested in the texts, but WH was still hooked. He would say childish things like "I waved at you when I drove past, but you didn't wave back."

BTW, how does she treat you? Is she fake friendly or does she avoid you? Is she trying to get to know your children? (As a potential stepmom?) Is she trying to insert herself into your role or do/did they just sneak around behind your back?

She avoids me and tries to see WH alone, without any kids around. I've never spoken to her after showing her around our house before she agreed to rent it. There was one time she was parked down the road. WH wasn't home and I was outside with my child. I saw her walk towards our house and scanning around for WH. When she saw me, she quickly walked away.

I just don't know if it's really ended or if your H wants to keep her on the back burner.

I'm not totally sure they aren't having a full blown physical affair right now.

Yeah, from the vague way that WH tried to end it with her, I have a feeling he wants to keep the door open. If we separate it, I'm pretty sure he'll be bouncing right back to her.

Just from witnessing one of their interactions while I was driving off - it was sooo flirty and the desire was clearly visible. WH swears he never invited her inside our house when she gave him all the food. It's hard to believe it didn't get intimate or they at least kissed. I'm not naive enough to believe him. I guess only they will know the truth.

There's a chance AP's family will move away as they had different long term plans that were wrecked by Covid. Now that she didn't exactly get the "fun" she was looking for with WH across the road, maybe they will move. If I tell her husband everything, they'll definitely move.

[This message edited by PurpleMedusa at 5:54 AM, March 9th (Tuesday)]

Your H is thriving on this drama. She moved close to you and thinks that’s ok?

I’m sorry to say he’s not sorry, he’s lying to you and himself.

I think you need to re-visit the lawyer. Or demand to move. Immediately.

MC treats an M. Your M hasn't failed - your H has. He's the one who needs treatment.

You say you understand why he needs external validation. People seek external validation to fill up some hole they perceive in themselves. But nothing external can ever fill that hole. Your H needs therapy - but therapy works only if the client wants to change.

You say you were miserable in your M. Are you sure you want to stay? Especially with someone who shows no desire to change?

Have you told the ap's BS about the texts and conversations? I recommend doing so - he deserves to know.

I'm very sorry you are here and dealing with this.

he texts reveal he snuck over to her place alone a second time. He later admitted there was actually a third visit.

Unfortunately I do not believe they were not physical with multiple private visits. "Physical" doesn't have to mean sex. It could be sitting close in one another's arms, holding hands, kissing, anything.

His refusal to admit what he did was wrong is a clear indicator, to me, that he will do it again because it's not wrong after all. Read up on the Healing Library articles.

As for your marital counselor blaming the lack of intimacy making him seek his needs elsewhere, I call BS on that. HE needs counseling to see why HE is behaving this way. This is not about you. That being said, you deserve to be respected and he's just not doing that right now.

Lot's of times when the WS isn't remorseful is because they are still "breaking the rules". Meaning he may still be in contact with her or planning to contact her. You might want to put a VAR in a room that he normally goes to talk to her or in his car if you think he calls while driving. He could even have a burner phone.

@sisoon:

You say you were miserable in your M. Are you sure you want to stay? Especially with someone who shows no desire to change?

I ask myself that every day. The MC pointed out that he is trying to change, just not doing a very good job of it and often relapses into his old ways.

I do think that he is inherently a good person, or tries to be. But he has poor role models and poor judgement of respectful behavior, having been brought up by authoritarian, narcissistic, emotionally abusive parents. If I could reverse time and educated my past self about this dynamic, I should not have married into this family. I would not have taken on that baggage.

When MCs and I call out his and his family's behavior, he seems... bewildered. True example - they simply don't understand why ridiculing and excluding someone could be hurtful. They make excuses for their behavior and gaslight.

Have you told the ap's BS about the texts and conversations? I recommend doing so - he deserves to know.

I think he deserves to know too. Especially as I suspect his wife is a serial cheater. But her husband is so elusive; I haven't found a way to contact him online.

@newlife03: I'm just going to assume that they physically crossed the line and would never admit to anything.

I do believe he has a high risk of repeating this in the future. It makes it so difficult for me to trust and reconcile. I don't want to have to subject myself to this pain again.

You know the husband's address. Send him a registered letter..one that requires HIS signature upon receipt. Tell him what has been happening. Do not include your opinions on his wife, or that you think she might be a serial cheater. Stick to facts.

And don't tell your husband. He is supposed to be NC with her. If he tells you he knows, then obviously he is still talking to her.

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:19 PM, March 9th (Tuesday)]

When MCs and I call out his and his family's behavior, he seems... bewildered.

This is why he needs IC. And until he wants to do IC for himself - because he sees a problem with his own behavior and isn't using you and your M as a scapegoat for his behavior - he will not change. Read up on narc behavior, scapegoating, triangulating, etc.

Also, get an STD check if you haven't already.

The MC pointed out that he is trying to change

“Do or do not. There is no try.” – Yoda

I didn't get out at the time. Everyone in my WH's immediate family (FIL, MIL, brothers, sisters, & their spouses) all have narc dysfunctional behaviors. With the denial you're coming up against and the reinforcement of these behaviors by the MC (me too) and your in-laws, I think it would take quite a big change in his mindset before he would be a safe partner.

Check out the book "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft. Dealing with this dynamic too long can create a trauma bond that makes it hard to leave later.

[This message edited by earlydetour at 8:30 PM, March 9th (Tuesday)]

I do think that he is inherently a good person, or tries to be. But he has poor role models and poor judgement of respectful behavior, having been brought up by authoritarian, narcissistic, emotionally abusive parents.

So he’s an adult and you believe he doesn’t know cheating is wrong b/c of his family and upbringing?

No! Hell no!! That’s excusing his choices and behavior. If you continue he to think that way he’s NEVER going to get it. Marriage counseling WANTS you to believe this. But it’s just an excuse.

He’s just a selfish jerk who chose to cheat. Period.

I’m sorry but I just hate when the reality of the situation is clouded by these types of excuses. It appears as though he’s not required to accept ANY responsibility for cheating. It’s like blaming everyone else.

Sorry, he knew it was wrong but did it anyway. The End.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 9:29 PM, March 9th (Tuesday)]

@HellFire: Thanks, I hadn't considered sending a letter. I think here, anyone can sign for a registered letter and AP will probably be the one signing.

I could leave a note on AP husband's car windscreen just before he leaves for work.

@earlydetour: Thank you for the book recommendation.

We haven't even gotten to the point where H acknowledges that there is anything wrong with himself or his family... Or maybe he does. I asked him to go to IC in the past and was invited to sit in a session. I witnessed him lying/minimizing/denying to the therapist about his family's behavior. Why protect them if their behavior is normal.

I think he knows his father is despicable. When I say he's copying his father's behavior, he gets very offended. He complains about his parents' actions sometimes, but then ferociously defends them when anyone calls them out. In their family, the children comply out of fear, not love.

There are different kinds of registered letters. One that simply requires the signature of whoever answers the door. The other requires the signature of the addressee only.