SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My original thread / story is here https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/656136/new-info-5-years-after-dday-completely-broke-me/
A quick recap: Before we got married, husband had a one-sided EA with a cow. He minimized the shit out of it for 5 years post DDay1. I wanted to believe him, but his story didn’t make sense, and it couldn’t quite explain some facts. So, I couldn’t move on, and I kept pushing for the truth. At the beginning of this year, he finally started to offer more truthful answers. Those answers + the fact that he lied to me for 5 years devastated me and that’s when I wrote my thread here.

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In the following months we’ve had many discussions. I was not ready to divorce him, so I’ve tried to make my peace with the new info and give it a shot. After kinda disappointing vacation I’ve started to doubt whether we can make it at all. I’ve started to seriously think about the divorce. I went back to his story from the beginning of this year and refreshed my feelings that I don’t have the full story. We have spent the past 4 weeks talking, arguing, opening old wounds. I have asked him to move out and presented divorce as the only option for me to move on and heal. What happened next is a no surprise to me – I had a DDay4 confirming that he only told me half-truths at the beginning of this year.

1. That night when he sent her the message that looked like he wanted to hook up with her (described under DDAY2 in my original thread) he would most likely cheat on me. Before they even went out, he gave himself permission to cheat. He basically told himself if an opportunity arises with the cow, he will go for it. So, there it is – I got a clear confirmation of my thoughts / fear – he didn’t physically cheat only because, as it turned out later, she wasn’t interested in him. To be fair, he claims he cannot tell with 100% certainty what would happen if she had replied to that message, maybe he would come to his senses. But it doesn’t really matter, does it?

2. Around that time he wanted to break up with me, he just didn’t know how. In other words, he was a chickenshit. He felt some kind of obligation towards me (we were in a 10+ year relationship at that time), and he didn’t want to hurt me. But he also didn’t want to be with me. He wanted to be single again, so that he can do whatever he wants, so that he can go out and play the field, flirt, hook up with someone, whatever. However, as he claims, there were days where he knew that’s stupid and that he loves me and wants to be with me. There were days when he thought our relationship doesn’t have a future, there were days when he thought this is just a bad phase and it will get better.

3. The purpose of the chat he had with her in the late 2016 (DDAY3 in my original thread), when he told her he is unhappy in our relationship, was to find out what she thinks of him. He thought that he can trick her into admitting her feelings for him if he starts a conversation like that. (What a dumbass, she had no feelings to admit). According to him, the reason why he so much wanted to find out what she thinks of him was because he got tired of everything. Around that time, we have moved in together and he has started to regain positive feelings about me, and he wanted to clear up what was going on between them.

4. Everything he did for her (like buying those stupid gifts or giving compliments) was not because she was a good friend, it was not because he wanted her to reciprocate and boost his ego, but rather it was because he wanted to make himself look good so that she sees him as a potential mate. However, according to him, it wasn’t because he wanted to be with her, but because he wanted to see whether he still "got it". And she was some kind of a proxy for other females.

5. He still claims he never wanted a relationship with her. He still claims that he didn’t find her physically attractive (however, he didn’t think she’s repulsive), he still claims that he did not have feelings for her – except that one passing thought I wrote about under DDAY3 in my original thread – he didn’t feel butterflies, he didn’t daydream about her, or feel anything that would be a clear sign to him that he’s catching feelings. In his words, he doesn’t remember ever feeling that way about her. He thinks everything that happened was a product of a fucked-up state of mind he was in (low self-esteem, hopelessness, dissatisfaction with life) and his resentment towards me. And she was just there, giving him some attention that he has overblown in his head. He saw something where there was nothing.
The fact is, she has an overly-friendly personality, probably because of her own insecurities and unhealthy need to be liked by everyone. To put it bluntly, she’s an attention-seeking whore. And she was like that towards everyone, but somehow he did not recognize that, and he thought she’s into him.

Nevertheless, he claims he cannot give me clarity and understanding of what was going on, as it is not clear to him either.

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Anyway, as you can assume, my current state of mind, after all these years of lying and trickle-truths is such that I cannot believe this is now the full truth. There is such a mess in my head that I even considered he might admit to things that did not happen, just to give me an answer that I think is true. As if somehow that would make me feel better. It doesn’t help that the explanations he gave are basically the same that I thought were true all these years of "reconciliation". In the past he denied them all and told me they are just my fears. Except they weren’t, I was right, my intuition was right, my common sense was right. However, I find no satisfaction in being right now, I’m just tired of everything.

We have spent lots of time together since DDay1. I am certain he will never betray me again. He is certain he will never again feel resentment towards me. We function well together, we can have fun and deal with everyday stuff. There is love, there is attraction. We did improve a lot of things in our relationship. There are some things that still need improvement. It seems that the precondition for those improvements to happen is to finally leave this shit behind us. I’m afraid that too much damage has been done. They say the reconciliation cannot begin until the last lie has been told. That would mean that we’ve never really started the reconciliation. Is it too late to start now? I don’t know. I don’t even know whether there are still lies being told.

What I do know is that I’m tired of everything, and lately I’m just getting more and more annoyed. We had a lovely vacation in August. Nevertheless, everything just didn’t feel right. I had fun, but I didn’t feel intimacy, closeness, affection, that warm feeling when you look at someone you love – things that matter to me the most. Things that I felt when I was with him before the betrayal. It was disappointing. If the situation continues as it is, I know it will get worse. I gave him until the end of this year to come clean about everything, and to show me it is worth it to stay together. I don’t want to divorce, but I also can’t continue like this, it is killing me. Divorce seems like a less painful option.

Thank you for letting me vent, I’m sorry that I don’t have a happy update like others do.

It’s not the affair that kills the marriage or relationship but the behavior of the cheater after the affair that causes more damage to the marriage or relationship (IMO).

As I read your post, there were a couple of trends that stood out to me.

he wanted to break up with me, he just didn’t know how

the reason why he so much wanted to find out what she thinks of him was because he got tired of everything. Around that time, we have moved in together and he has started to regain positive feelings about me, and he wanted to clear up what was going on between them

He has a track record of not communicating important feelings with you in the regular course of your relationship. (This on top of not communicating clearly about his EA after you discovered it.)

He thought that he can trick her into admitting her feelings for him if he starts a conversation like that. (What a dumbass, she had no feelings to admit).

it was because he wanted to make himself look good so that she sees him as a potential mate. However, according to him, it wasn’t because he wanted to be with her, but because he wanted to see whether he still "got it". And she was some kind of a proxy for other females.

she was just there, giving him some attention that he has overblown in his head. He saw something where there was nothing.

He has a track record of not reading situations clearly and not being honest with himself about what's happening in situations he is participating in.

If I'm understanding correctly, you characterize much of the last 5 years as your H lying and minimizing about the one-sided EA. In this update, you've said that, the vacation was disappointing. You're still not feeling what you hoped you would toward him.

For him to feel like a safe partner to you does he need to consistently demonstrate that he will initiate truthful and introspective conversations with you?

I felt the strong need for this with my fWH. We've spent the last 7 or 8 months with this being the main focus of my needs as far as what he can do to show he's doing work to heal the relationship. (This is beyond the work he needs to do to heal himself.)

Waywards do a lot of lying to themselves in order to carry out their affairs.
I need to see he reads situations clearly (reads them clearly internally to himself and externally to me).

Waywards often have a track record of failing to communicate (either their unhappiness with themselves and/or their unhappiness with the relationship). So I have asked my husband to initiate a LOT of difficult conversations.

It wasn't helping me to be the one who initiated conversations and to "drag" him through analysis of his past thinking and actions. I needed to see him take that on and do it independently. Otherwise, if I was always prompting or directing it, how was he really demonstrating that he was a safe partner when I wasn't there to prompt or direct?

I'm wondering if you need to see something similar from your spouse.

Thank you for letting me vent, I’m sorry that I don’t have a happy update like others do.

This update actually made me very happy...for YOU . YOU KNEW. The WHOLE time your husband has been gaslighting you...YOU KNEW! I am sure you WANTED to believe him...WANTED to move forward...but your GUT was screaming at you...and you trusted it. VERY NICE . Knowledge is POWER Dear Lady...and you have a very sensitive GUT...it will NOT let ANY gaslighting from your husband go.

It was SICKENING to realize the extent that my H was gaslighting me...but it was also a RELIEF to know that I KNEW. Even an ocean apart...with no body language to help me...I KNEW. The GOOD thing about that was...when my GUT started getting calm again...I KNEW . ALWAYS trust your GUT!!

The fact is, she has an overly-friendly personality, probably because of her own insecurities and unhealthy need to be liked by everyone. To put it bluntly, she’s an attention-seeking whore. And she was like that towards everyone, but somehow he did not recognize that, and he thought she’s into him.

You may be SPOT ON with this. I don't remember if this was someone you knew or not...but as I said...you are very in tune to your GUT...so this may be the case . I see myself in this situation too though. I am an eternal optimist...very extroverted...and want to spread happiness as much as I can . I have always seen this as a GIFT that God gave me...and my motivation is to spread His word around to everyone. My personality has drawn people who felt I was wanting MORE...and they put out feelers to see. Some of them were actually very BLUNT . The difference seems to be that I would shut those people down QUICK...leaving NO room for interpretation. You know more about the situation than I do...but I wanted to give a different perspective on how things have happened with me.

To be fair, he claims he cannot tell with 100% certainty what would happen if she had replied to that message, maybe he would come to his senses. But it doesn’t really matter, does it?

This is something that YOUR answer to this matters . After I found out my 1st H cheated...I drove to a guy's house. He was single...and I felt he would probably have no qualms about me being a married woman...and I could have an RA. I was DETERMINED to have sex with someone that night!!! The traffic light turned red right before I got to his house. I call it Divine Intervention . I could see his house from where I was. I DID come to my senses...and drove back home. I have NEVER had thoughts like that again...even when I caught my 1st H with another adultery co-conspirator almost 2 years later. In MY case...that taught me a lesson that has stayed with me all this time. I am so HAPPY that I didn't go through with THAT plan!!! BUT...I can definitely see how EASY it is to do something you would have never thought you would do. However...we never know until we are in that situation. I am sure ALL of us have said we would NEVER stay with a cheater...yet the vast majority of us DO.

My 2nd H sought out NSA sex in Craigslist ads and on Tagged while he was working alone overseas. He WANTED to use a woman...a stranger...for sex. ONE woman agreed to having NSA sex...but she actually had an agenda. She was obsessed with America...and saw my H as her meal ticket to get here. According to my H...the first night the adultery co-conspirator went to the hotel room...he froze. He had WANTED this fantasy...SOUGHT it out...got a woman to say YES...she WENT there...and...he froze . The woman...who was a serial cheater...got undressed and grabbed my H's hand and led him to the bed to sit next to her...she wasn't about to let my H stop her from getting her plans done. With a little kissing and fondling...my H was rock hard and ready to go. They agreed to use a condom...but when he went to put it on...he got soft . There would be NO sex that night!!!

BUT...my H didn't see this as Divine Intervention. He saw it as a challenge . They tried again another time...and the same scenario happened. The THIRD time they tried to have sex...they decided to NOT use condoms...and it worked...he stayed hard long enough to fuck her . Your H seemed to be determined like my H. Would he have actually been able to go through with it? YOU know that answer better than anyone. Would I have felt differently IF he never went through with it? Maybe. But I can't go with WHAT IFS...or I would drive myself crazy. Well...more crazy than I already am .

He still claims he never wanted a relationship with her. He still claims that he didn’t find her physically attractive (however, he didn’t think she’s repulsive), he still claims that he did not have feelings for her – except that one passing thought I wrote about under DDAY3 in my original thread – he didn’t feel butterflies, he didn’t daydream about her, or feel anything that would be a clear sign to him that he’s catching feelings.

Same thing with my H. He contacted over 100 women on Tagged while overseas...writing that he was a "happily married man looking for NSA sex while working in that country". Most of these contacts on Tagged were while he was having his A with the adultery co-conspirator. She was the ONLY one who said YES to what he wanted...most of the others called him a PIG for what he was doing to his wife. My H said that his first thought when he saw the adultery co-conspirator for the first time was "She'll do". When I asked him WHY he would keep having sex with her when he wasn't attracted to her...his answer was that he was going to "Ride the ride until the park closed" . When the THOUGHT entered my H's mind to do this...it became the obsession. He said the sex was anticlimactic. It was her saying YES to coming over that was the RUSH. My H said he felt a similar RUSH when others he contacted would reply back to him .

They say the reconciliation cannot begin until the last lie has been told. That would mean that we’ve never really started the reconciliation. Is it too late to start now?

That is another answer that only YOU can answer . The thing is...although the majority of cheaters go about having their A's in the SAME way...the healing for Betrayeds is very unique to them. We all carry different pieces of baggage that make us unique. I THOUGHT I was in R with my 1st H...until I was betrayed again. I went for D with him and never looked back . I THOUGHT I was going to D with my 2nd H...until HE showed me that he was worthy of giving him another chance. I went for R with him and I am so HAPPY that I did .

You've gotten through this far...KNOWING that you weren't being told the whole truth. THAT IS POWERFUL...kudos to YOU!! You have written certain things that you KNOW...such as love...attraction...having fun. You also sense that it may be time to leave this all BEHIND you. That may be the case as well. For ME...I would say GO FOR IT . Your GUT will help you to see what your head and your heart can't . ALWAYS trust your GUT !!!

I very much appreciate kind words and comments, thanks! Sorry for late reply. The last few days have been horrible, with more details being revealed. I didn’t sleep much, I threw up twice. I am not well, and it wasn’t easy to write.

@The1stWife

It’s not the affair that kills the marriage or relationship but the behavior of the cheater after the affair that causes more damage to the marriage or relationship (IMO).

I heard and thought about that sentence many times. I’m sure in many cases it is true. However, I feel I’m not quite there yet. It is true that he half-assed our reconciliation attempt. He did lots of mistakes since DDay1, but that is fine. No one prepares you for this shit. Sometimes it takes lots of time to make certain changes. Some other times, it takes doing the same mistake several times to finally realize you’re wrong. As much as I wanted him to make drastic changes basically overnight, I know that’s not realistic. I hate that it took 5+ years to get some truth, but better late than never. I also do my best do put myself into his shoes, I know this is not easy for him. In addition, I cannot just ignore all the positive changes he did do. I know many people would give up, but I’m patient and stubborn, heh.

As for the betrayal, it is and always will be the ultimate cause of destruction. It has ruined so many things for us, that there can be no winners here. We will never be able to repair some of those things. I won’t go into details now, but it is enough to say that I believe if our marriage dies, it will be because of the betrayal, not because of his later behavior.

@BreakingBad

He has a track record of not communicating important feelings with you in the regular course of your relationship. (This on top of not communicating clearly about his EA after you discovered it.)

Yes, this is correct. It comes from his avoidant personality. I believe this is one of the reasons that enabled him to build up resentment for me. I’d like to think this is something we’ve improved. However, I believe he’s not quite there yet.

He has a track record of not reading situations clearly and not being honest with himself about what's happening in situations he is participating in.

Also correct. He tends to overthink stuff. A lot. I believe this is also consistent with his personality.

For him to feel like a safe partner to you does he need to consistently demonstrate that he will initiate truthful and introspective conversations with you?

Yes and no. Yes, I do need that, but not for the emotional safety. I need that because it has been 5+ years since DDay and I still feel that I don’t know the full extent of his betrayal. I realize trickle-truths did not do us any favors. As for the emotional safety, I’d dare to say that neither of us is a safe partner at the moment.

@ Want2BHappyAgain

I wanted to give a different perspective on how things have happened with me

Thank you for your perspective. What you are describing seems like a lovely and friendly personality. That’s not the case with her. She really has an unhealthy need to be liked by everyone. I don’t want to go into details now, it’s not worth it, but I know what I’m talking about. And she definitely didn’t shut down anything.

This is something that YOUR answer to this matters
(…)
Your H seemed to be determined like my H. Would he have actually been able to go through with it? YOU know that answer better than anyone.

Judging by what I know, I believe he would go through with it. My question was rhetorical. To me, it doesn’t really matter whether he’d come to his senses or not. He had intention to cheat. To me, that is as bad as the act of cheating.

Same thing with my H. He contacted over 100 women on Tagged while overseas...writing that he was a "happily married man looking for NSA sex while working in that country".

I wouldn’t say our situations are comparable. My husband & cow were "friends" for 2+ years, they spent so much time together, they talked a lot, a lot of things happened. That’s a lot of time to get closer on an emotional level and to develop true feelings.

Your GUT will help you to see what your head and your heart can't

My head is saying: "Run! Don’t look back". My gut is saying: he’s still lying. And my heart just wants the pain to go away.