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I can't avoid to still feel empathy for her, seeing her going through this struggle.

It's both understandable and at the same time incomprehensible why she chose to do what she did.

This is what she told from her last session:

- She felt me as 'out of her league'

Apparently she saw me as 'too worthy' for her. Too intelligent, too attractive, too brave, too confident, too driven, too much moral integrity, too fond of her, too much loving her. She claim I was all that she always wanted. So she had to betray and ditch me

- She does not deserve what she has

Her achievements, her career, her success. As long as others have those they are desirable and worthy. The moment she achieved them they became worthless, undeserved, surely it was a mistake she was allowed to get there. She also always felt she does not deserve me.

- Perception of her position in the world

She feels the pull towards contempt and superiority for those who rank lower in her professional environment or social circle (feeling does not apply to strangers, only to people that she interacts daily with). Towards her peers she feels inadequate, insecure (no matter if she is better or truly worse). Towards her superior she feels submissive and longing for recognition.

- Coping with insecurity

The only way she learned how to feel empowered is by crushing her low self worth. Her copying mechanisms is A) put down others to a lower level where she can look down to (this works long term) B) receive validation from "higher status" people (this is only short term coping). Her IC noted that she applied this mechanism over and over toward me to feel "equal" by establishing superiority, thus removing her insecurities.

- OM selection

She chose ugly, immoral but "high status" (at least in their little pond) men to cheat with, being used, discarded, trated like trash. In some ways this even made her feel better as she could "show me"she can do it.

I can understand parts of it. I am still not entirely sure how should I interpret this or if she would not simply be happier without me in her life. It is hard to exclude I might have been a significant cause in her decisions and therefore a negative influence no matter how much she says she loves me.

She never had this with men before me (though she was choosing that kind of abusive guys). Was I the trigger? Is difficult to exclude that at least in part is 'my fault' for being wrong for her.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 1:20 PM, Thursday, January 15th]

I don’t think what you are describing is unusual for a ws.

When one doesn’t love themselves they are prone to look for proof the don’t fit in, are unloved, rather than to look for the opposite.

In addition, many of us grew up in chaos. When chaos isn’t present it feels love isn’t present or healthy relationships are boring.

When we pick the AP we often choose someone who is emotionally unavailable and also sort of a pig in mud comraderie. Their lack does bring feelings of superiority and having sort of an upper hand.

This behavior is addictive because of the push pull dynamic that most affairs have due to the lack of availability, stability. The highs are caused by adrenaline and happy chemicals flooding the brain. Then, when we get treated like shit, the mood goes very low. It’s confirmation that not even someone we see as our equal (because of their moral ambiguity) or even our lesser is rejecting us. We double down on impressing them to remind them how awesome we are because we need them to carry that candle for us- their validation becomes over time more important than our own or anyone else’s. Once discarded, moving forward unchecked, the ws wouod be still addicted to those highs and lows and will seek it out in someone else.

One of the more minor reasons I confessed is because I knew that would be the cycle. As a young person I spent a lot of time obsessing over unrequited love. I had seen where I had been here before on a much smaller and less damaging scale. I knew I would want to mend the wounds of AP’s rejection by seeking out a similar situation to make me feel better. I wanted that adrenaline and dopamine back. And when you have this issue often that lack feels deep. It’s like you just want to find a new crack dealer. By putting myself in therapy and telling my husband it was a way to find accountability to kind of wedge myself back out of this pattern. But it was a hard road to walk.

I usually think the ws is on that road when I hear the empathy in the bs. It takes a lot to peak out from your own devastation and see your ws is really truly digging and finding the terrible truths.

The thing is even though this is very personal to you. None of this behavior is about you. You are basically a casualty in her war with herself. If she wants to change she can. It will be a long uphill battle of being mindful over her self talk, her motivations, and ultimately fixing the relationship she has with herself.

I felt very similiar that my husband was better than me. He grew up in an uncomplicated family. He was raised to believe in himself and don’t live in chaos. His family was such better fabric than mine. People like him immediately. He exudes competence and confidence. I had myself convinced he married me (I was his third wife) because he believed how much I loved him and that felt secure. I believed he liked having me around to take care of his domestic stuff and someone to regularly have sex with. All those things were about what I believed I needed to supply rather thnq believing he loved me for who I am.

And in an unfortunate way there were things he was saying tha made it feel like a confirmation. Like I would ask him why he loved me and he would talk about my selflessness and how I work so hard to make sure our family is taken care of.

Of course those things were sincere, and nothing wrong with it. But I didn’t feel it was true either. Because unconsciously part of me knew I was doing those things to hustle for love and that I wasn’t as selfless, and I wanted more for myself in the way of being taken care of. But I didn’t feel worthy and I was avoidant.

The revelations your wife has uncovered in IC are positive. You can’t begin to change what you don’t acknowledge. These things she is revealing to you are tender, vulnerable because they are ugly things she probably doesn’t want to realize. And it’s overwhelming to try and figure out how it could ever be different when these thoughts were built upon from the time she was young.

My husband was my first healthy partner as well. I felt like I hit the jackpot. And then the self doubt and all my avoidant tendencies and people pleasing clouded my vision in making me believe that there is no way this wonderful man can love me. I am convenient and useful.

I can’t assure you that she will change these things. I can’t only acknowledge most of what you wrote was true for me and that none of it has to do with you or whether you are good for her. I think you likely are the best thing that happened to her and that’s why she couldn’t accept it as something she deserves.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:54 PM, Thursday, January 15th]

I think you likely are the best thing that happened to her and that’s why she couldn’t accept it as something she deserves.

Believe it or not word by word she told me that before the first betrayal, after, before the second, after, and she still says that.

I saw those things in her perfectly, I liked her because I could feel her shadow side too and I did not care.

I behaved in a similar, destructive way when I was hurt young by my first infatuation (betrayal there too, right in front of my eyes).

Difference I was single, I was a model dating models, actresses (younger or older did not care, it was validation) or the prettiest / most desired girls around. And I never touched one in a relationship, even worse if she was interested I felt sick.

No attachment, no emotions, no exclusivity, I have always been "unavailable".

But the true deep reason what the belief was I was not worthy and unlovable.

So everything felt hollow and pointless.

She changed that, she made me feel loved for the first time in my life, I believed,

Then confirmed it when she betrayed me.

I see now it was a trauma combination from hell.

I feel empathy, still cannot take it out of my mind, "is she now so much in love and with so much desperation and limerence because she feels I changed and can walk if I so choose?"

I want her to heal, for herself first.

That's the only way I could reconsider, maybe.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 2:26 PM, Thursday, January 15th]

hikingout I needed to hear this so much:

I usually think the ws is on that road when I hear the empathy in the bs. It takes a lot to peak out from your own devastation and see your ws is really truly digging and finding the terrible truths.

The thing is even though this is very personal to you. None of this behavior is about you. You are basically a casualty in her war with herself. If she wants to change she can. It will be a long uphill battle of being mindful over her self talk, her motivations, and ultimately fixing the relationship she has with herself.

My w and I had a long, hard conversation last night about this very thing. The "casualty in a war with herself" is exactly how I feel. I hear the words "it had nothing to do with you or something you lacked", but they are hard to believe. And "peaking out from my own devastation" to see her struggling is something I'm trying, and mostly failing, most days. But I'm trying.

My w is struggling mightily with feeling the need to "prove" herself to everyone who's been damaged by her A. Me, our daughters, her close friends... and my pain and expressed need for her to fix me (which I don't say outright, but definitely convey). Her IC talked about her shame cycle, and the need to prove herself feeding into her identity issues. I know this is positive for her to be working through. On one hand, though, I selfishly just want her to keep showering me with affection and remorse and focus on ME. It sounds awful, but it's true. Every time her shame and guilt pertain to our kids, or other family/friends, or even just grieving the loss of her old, "innocent" self, I almost get jealous. I want it all for me, because I'm so wounded. Pulling myself out of that hole, and seeing any progress she makes as good for our marriage and therefore healing for me, even if it's not directly related to the hurt she caused ME, is hard. But I'm trying. And she's trying.

[This message edited by Carpenter81 at 3:51 PM, Thursday, January 15th]

and my pain and expressed need for her to fix me (which I don't say outright, but definitely convey)

Please take this in the right way: you feel this need because she hurt you and you want a proof of love she could show by fixing you.
But in truth only you can heal yourself. Only her can heal herself.

On one hand, though, I selfishly just want her to keep showering me with affection and remorse and focus on ME. It sounds awful, but it's true.

It is a human feeling and in part is the way she mends to the wounds she caused.

But try to consider seriously, you are running the risk of creating a co-dependant relationship. Which is not healthy, it will rebound back, possibly creating another betrayal.

You must try to heal yourself first for you, then for her.

She must do the same.

I know it is hard when you feel wounded, but finding the strength to get an inner focus, like you are factually 'alone', is critical.

Does not mean to wall her out, accept her warmth when she offers you. Do not beg for it, Do not pursue it. Live your life for yourself, it will help your healing (and hers)

What hikingout wrote is so true and I really think this is going on with her. The list you gave at the beginning itemized some of her "defense mechanisms" that almost seem diagnostic of a narcissist. In psychology we studied the disorders, and narcissism is one of the most puzzling of the disorders to understand; as you said yourself, it doesn't make sense. It is thought to be the result of deep-seated low self-esteem that gets covered up with a strong need to associate with only superior people. To act "as if." And to spurn others.

Also we were taught in counseling methods that doing effective work with a narcissist can be very challenging for a therapist, since a narcissistic client usually is willing to face their issues only when 'their back is against the wall,' so to speak. And progress is often hard to achieve if their resistance remains high. Thus she may not hear anything from the IC about narcissistic personality traits, as it would not serve any positive purpose. But I feel that you may want to know this, if that is what you are dealing with.

Best.

I feel empathy, still cannot take it out of my mind, "is she now so much in love and with so much desperation and limerence because she feels I changed and can walk if I so choose?"

It’s a valid question. I would keep holding it as evidence will appear as time moves along. You do not seem ready to pull the plug yet and you seem open to any marital outcome and in the end that objectivity is needed.

I think working on myself redefined love for me, even commitment, marriage. Having that different vision and growing along with that focus has changed a lot of my wiring.

By the way I want to clarify that I don’t think empathy for the ws is required or owed. I am just saying when real work is being done it’s evident, it provides some hope, and it allows us to connect with each other in the shared loss, shared struggle.

Carpenter81-

This might be an incorrect assumption but I think you may just be earlier in your timeline and what you describe in wanting all her care and attention is natural. With children for example, it can hurt the relationship but there is a tie there that makes it more likely for repair if the appropriate steps are taken. In a romantic relationship it doesn’t have the naturally unconditional aspects. An affair disproves romantic love so you want to have a lot of validation and proof. Normal.

I do not think empathy for a ws is available until deeper into the healing process. Even then it still may not be available, nor is it required or owed. So so not hold on to those words as a benchmark of anything. I specifically hear it in storms posts, but he seems a bit more detached to an outcome.

One thing to remember- your wife can’t fix you. She can provide an environment in which you can heal, which may speak to whether you can ultimately reconcile. She can show consistency and love and a commitment to her own growth. She can intentionally build trust. But unfortunately, the trauma of infidelity reverberates all sorts of things throughout your lifetime - past trauma, how you learned to cope, pas romantic disappointments, all sort of things that in essence shape us can work against us in healing after infidelity. If you are open to individual therapy, or perhaps education through books or podcasts you can increase your self awareness and that can often put you in a path that you can heal regardless of your ws. Regardless of your marital outcome. I can hear the pain you are in, and I am so sorry you are experiencing it.