SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My God, writing this all down makes me realise how bad things truly are.

Keep writing if it makes you come into reality. Things really are that bad. You have some excellent advice here. Yes, setting up boundaries and consequences and the 180 are all needed. You are more than justified in any civil action that you may take.

However, she still treating you like a doormat and is very much in the A. She's not in your marriage. There is no remorse here. Only regerte that she has been caught. I agree with Tren0R201. Expose the shyte out of this A. You have to get much tougher my friend.

From Tren0R201:

You're stuck in an indecisive holding pattern where nothing is being done. You're carrying this all by yourself. F*ck no!

In order to possibly save something as far gone as your marriage, you have to be willing to burn it down and let it go. Then you will get out of this horrible holding pattern and have your answer as to where this will go. Really, you should just let her go. I know as hard as that may be, just. let. her. go. At this point with her actively in the affair it may be the only way to save anything.

Stay strong saveus.

Saveus,

I just now read your thread. I'm not sure how I could have missed it.

In any case, I am angry for you. I cannot add anything as you are getting excellent advice from everyone here.

Just internalize this:

the advice they are trying to give you is following the flow chart. trust them. one of the worst things about being cheated on is that it is new terrain for us and because its new we dont know how best to accomplish what is necessary. trust the collective wisdom on this site. they DO know.

I was you, Saveus, as all of us were. Please, please believe the people here. If you can, read my earliest threads and you will be amazed at our nearly identical storyline. And it is a storyline. It's a playbook, Saveus. I was hit over the head by so many 2x4s (by many of the same people wielding them right now), but I did not listen. I could not. Surely they were wrong: they did not love their spouses like I did mine.

But they were right. I was wrong. Every damn step of the way. I wanted so desperately for them to be wrong. And I want desperately for them (I now include myself among them) to be wrong in your case. Maybe you will be the exception.

But you must be tough--against all intuition, against all your deep attachment to your wife. You are being emotionally abused; no other way of putting it. Only you can stop it. Throw down the gauntlet HARD.

I let myself undergo torture for eight months while my X flaunted her affair in my face and nearly destroyed me until I stood up and filed for divorce. My one regret is that I did not do it on D-day.

Your timeline is your own, as was mine. I ducked 2x4s on this site like you wouldn't believe. I cannot bring myself to read my earliest posts.

Tough love, Saveus. You have to be prepared to lose the marriage. It's a nightmare of a pill to swallow, but there it is. Be strong. Act according to logic and evidence. Do NOT trust your love and emotional attachment to this woman. I hate to type those words, but please, please believe them.

Keep posting, even through the 2x4s. Everyone here cares deeply. And again, we KNOW. We truly do.

[This message edited by Abbondad at 8:10 AM, May 5th (Monday)]

Saveus,

Please keep strong and LISTEN to the advice given here. EAT, REST(when you can), EXERICISE will also help.

-Your WW is NOT off of the fence yet.

-You NEED to 180 for YOU, not for any other reason.

-Please check with UK laws on divorce, but I would imagine that if you file, you still have time to withdrawal or back out of it.

-180 would be a good thing to do

-See a lawyer about divorce

-Get into IC

-Make a list of non-contested demands

1. NC and letter

2. Complete disclosure

3. Complete transparency(all passwords, PINS, cell phone access)

4. She needs to get into IC as well

5. Have HER build a timeline of events

6. MC ONLY after you can tell that she is remorseful and out of the fog.

- oh yea and you should 180!!!!!

Also read these to forum post if you haven't already, and if you have read them, read them again.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=406548

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=361740

[This message edited by spond at 8:59 AM, May 5th (Monday)]

Saveus,

I think one of the main reasons we are so mixed up after d-day is because we have never envisioned being in this situation. A good exercise is to substitute infidelity with some other trauma. Bear with me on this because I’m going to sound just like all the others that might seem to be encouraging divorce (and we aren’t!!!);

Now imagine that instead of discovering your wife was cheating you wake up in the middle of the night to the screaming of the smoke detectors.

You sniff and find the smell of smoke. You hear the sound of fire…

How do you react?

What do you do?

Would you lie in bed wishing it wasn’t a fire?

Would you ask the fire to go away?

Would you jump up and down screaming?

Would you open the door into your living room – look at the fire and close the door – then open it again it the hope it’s gone?

I venture you would think EXACTLY like you think now: How can I protect my son? How can I save my family?

So you run to his room, grab him and make sure he’s safe outside. You scream at your wife to wake up. Once you know everyone is safe you call the fire department. You might even make some runs into the house to save valuables. Might even try to extinguish the flames.

You would never make compromises with the fire. You wouldn’t try to cut a deal where the fire remains in the living room while you stay in the bedroom.

When the fire department arrives you won’t worry that their boots will ruin the carpets and that the water will wreck the hardwood floors. You don’t phone a contractor to make repairs while you wait for the fire to be extinguished. You won’t tell the FD to leave and let you deal with the embers.

And Saveus – if your wife made run after run into the house – WAY after it was unsafe – all you can do is try to stop her. But if she decides to burn with the house… You have to think about you and your son.

This is EXACTLY where you are now.

Your marriage is burning and you need to save what you can BUT you also have to be ready to leave the building.

Maybe… just maybe… you can refurbish the house. MAYBE you can rebuild on the foundations… But the present home isn’t there.

Saveus – you have to decide what you are willing to accept…

There are people that live in infidelity marriages where affairs are accepted. You could reach a compromise where your wife has her lover and you simply don’t ask. After all – if protecting your son is your absolute main concern and you think maintaining this marriage is the best way to do that… Well… get her to use condoms and wash and learn to live with it.

If that doesn’t sound like a sound plan… Reevaluate what your main concern…

To help you in doing that then also reevaluate how you best protect your son…

I venture that once you think things through you will realize that the absolutely worst thing you can do to your son is making compromises on your core values and having him remain in a broken household. I venture that the BEST thing you can do is create happiness and stability for him. And you won’t nor can do that while she’s not in the marriage…

So Saveus – your worst fear isn’t that your house catches fire. Your worst fear is that your son gets caught in the house. Your worst fear isn’t that the marriage is over because it already IS over. Your worst fear is remaining in a marriage where you share your wife.

Stating that your marriage is over is not the same as saying you won’t remain married to this woman. If both are willing and both do the work you two can reestablish a NEW marriage based on the good of what you had. But your present marriage is a corpse and if you remain holding it’s hand you will only start smelling the decay.

Before I go on a slight diversion:

I hate ultimatums. Mainly because they are seldom enforceable and/or the person using them isn’t willing to carry them through…

When I saw the other day people recommending you kick her out… I was thinking “NOOOOOOO!!!!!”

It’s generally a non-enforceable ultimatum plus it can lead to a domestic violence charge.

Consider this: Rather than using definite ultimatums use more openly worded ones:

Instead of saying “see OM one more time and I am out” and then a couple of days later having to say “See OM AGAIN and I am out and this time I mean it” then consider saying:

“Every time you contact or see OM you are disrespecting me. Each time it kills a part of the positive emotions I might have for our marriage and my will to work on saving it. Contact him and you are risking that I have to think of myself and won’t be willing to work on the marriage”.

Instead of saying “Commit to the marriage or leave the house” consider saying “This situation isn’t maintainable. If you insist on being with your affair partner then it’s inevitable that we live in separate places. Why don’t we make those arrangements now?”

Back on track:

I think it’s an immensely powerful moment when a betrayed husband can tell his wife;

“I am willing to do a lot to save this marriage. I realize it requires I make changes. But I have realized that losing you isn’t the worst outcome. I realize that I have already lost you and did so the second you decided to break your vows. The worst outcome is to remain in a marriage where I SHARE you with someone else.

I refuse to share you. I also refuse to force you to be in this marriage. If you want to be with OM then go ahead. Be with him.

BUT NOT AS MY WIFE”

And then make it clear that unless she VERBALLY tells you she wants the marriage then you simply assume the marriage is over. It’s a corpse and you start the process of arranging it’s burial and start the mourning process.

No threats, no long faces. No threats about how divorce will be hard. No thoughts of leaving her with nothing…

In fact you avoid all talk about the specifics of D. You talk about reality: Since you have decided to remain in infidelity we might as well start thinking through the process of how we separate our lives. Do you want to move out? Can you afford the house? And so on.

As far as the specifics of D go simply tell her that there is a process in place in your state that should ensure a fair process. You are too emotionally tied to the marriage to want to talk about specifics but you will give her the name of your lawyer soon. She can direct questions to him.

Then Saveus – you move on. You stop wondering if she’s with OM. Simply assume she is. You stop waiting for her to commit to the marriage. You simply assume she won’t. Until or unless she comes to you and ASKS to remain married you simply assume she’s still in infidelity.

IF she asks then you let her know what you need. Then you start talking about accountability and how you can enforce it. But until then… Simply assume she’s cheating and behave accordingly.

Completely agree with Bigger!! Couldn't have said it better if I tried.

I'm so sorry you are in this situation. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. My XWS and I had no chance of reconciliation. I really do hope it works out for you. Please keep posting!

As many others have said, the most amazing thing about SI is that so many of us have lived the exact same script. So this is where all this good advice comes from: our mistakes.

And so while the following advice may seem harsh or insensitive, it's intended to help you focus. And survive. And so, in addition to what's been said:

1. Don't let your WW see you cry anymore. Period. Stuff it down, save it for later, and let it all go then, do whatever you must - but no more crying in front of her. None.

This is for your benefit, not hers. To date, she's been someone you've shared your emotions and pain with - but that needs to stop. It may one day be restored, but train yourself, as quickly as you can, that she doesn't get to see this. It's the best way I know of to re-focus your thinking.

(and it took me awhile to understand this, but while my tears were genuine and not orchestrated to make her feel remorse, they inevitably had the opposite effect - as will yours).

2. Be the man you'd want your son to be.

Right now, what you probably fear the most is the impact this will have on him. I felt that for the sake of my daughters, I needed to "rescue" my XWW and save our marriage.

My epiphany came one sleepless night, when I pseudo-dreamed that my eldest daughter (who was 8 at the time) came to me later in her life, in tears, telling me the exact same tale of her own WS...my story, as if it had happened to her. She was heartbroken, frightened, and unable to stand up to her unremorseful WS. And it broke my heart backwards on itself, seeing her in so much pain, and it made me profoundly angry. How could I allow her to be mistreated in such a way?

And why would I accept any less for myself?

God forbid this ever happens to our children. But in many, many ways - while our children may not understand or even know the details of A's that end marriages like they did mine - they will always rely on us as their models of integrity and strength.

Following two D-days and 18 months of false R, I had become a compromising, weak, and beaten-down man. I was so distracted with the rollercoaster and my XWW's bullshit that I had become less of a father.

Your choices aren't easy. Bluntly, your M is over until your WW decides to fight for it. If and until she puts up that fight, find the courage to be the man you'd want your son to be.

Bigger, thanks for you very helpful clarification on how not to do the ultimatum trap and how to keep the commentary BS focused in that useful way. Great. Hopefully, this will help many newbies understand the calm, centred and self-respecting syntax that can be achieved…even if your voice is shaking.

Excellent post Jagged. Please Saveus, go re read that. It is excellent.

To everyone, I must read all your stories. I vow to catch up in thanks for all the time and effort you’re putting in with me. To anyone whose posts I don’t reply to, don’t think I’ve not read them or am not grateful - you know I am.

@william: I AM trying to accept the advice given here. I know it makes sense. Believe me, I ABSOLUTELY know the ONLY way forward now is the hardest 180 any BS has ever attempted. I just know I’m weak when it comes to my wife. More on that below. As for her using protection, I KNOW she didn’t. She’s already admitted to that. Trust me, I’ve really struggled with her disregard for my well-being, now not only emotionally (and will be getting myself checked this week). Thank you for the flow chart analogy. You and others have made me open my eyes and see that our situation is far from unique though I confess there is a little voice inside me that still refuses to believe this. What the hell is that all about??? I do understand and believe it though - but my wife is in full denial mode about any of this. According to her, there is no ‘text book’, there are no patterns of behaviour, statistics are just statistics - we are us and no-one knows what it’s like to be us. Therefore we are on our own and just have to muddle through (in part hence her attitude to IC/MC - again, more below).

@Red Sox Nation: I did ask her where she saw herself in five years’ time, last night. You have to understand she has NEVER been the kind of person to look ahead, whereas I have. It was like she had no idea how to even make sense of the question (worrying, yes). Eventually she did think it over and tell me she wanted to be here, with us, in this house (though it wasn’t exactly reassuring). I do believe her, though I also believe right now she’s incapable of letting go of her A (which clearly is a deal-breaker for me).

@Tren0R201: As far as I’m concerned, my WW’s A is ongoing and I, by my actions or lack thereof, am condoning it. She admitted yesterday she had lied about NC, having text the OM only yesterday morning. Apparently to ask about Saturday - the next time all of us are inevitably going to cross paths (our kids share a hobby and all go to the same club). Again ‘apparently’, he didn’t reply (which would be interesting if I could be sure it was true). You’re right, I am stuck in that holding pattern and need to take control - I made a move towards this last night (and failed) - more below. As for exposing the As, I still have major problems with this - my God, I want to but it could be a huge mistake if done for the wrong reasons.

@tushnurse: Believe you me, I’m battling with myself over how to do exactly this - throw down the gauntlet. I tried last night (and failed) - see below. I keep telling her (but am avoiding any ultimatums) that I cannot live ONE MORE DAY like this. But then I said the same on D-Day 2, last Wednesday. What is wrong with me???

@yearsofpain25: I hear you. I just don’t know how to ‘let her go’. Remember, (a) I don’t want to, and (b) I’ve tried throwing her out once already. But I do see the ONLY way to get her our of her dense fog is to make her realise overnight that it may all be about to be taken out of her hands/she may lose everything.

@Abbondad: I WILL read your original thread. I’m sorry you - any of us - are here. I hear what you’re saying.

@spond: I’ve tried to look after myself a lot better in the last 24 hours. I was in a much better place for most of yesterday (thought it never lasts). Your list was helpful, combined with all the other advice - see below for how ‘well’ last night went :(

@Bigger: Wow. What can I say? Except thank you for taking so much time to try to get through to me. Brilliant analogy and the advice on ultimatums is very welcome. I am hopeless at ultimatums, knowing my WW knows I still love her and want to fix everything, so I’m trying to learn not to issue these. I may have to write another letter to my wife, using your advice (remember, I never sent the last one) even if just to help me figure out what I need to say, in the right way. I struggle in a confrontation (which is how it often turns out) to think clearly.

@FrmrBH80124: Thanks for the support.

@jagged: I’m not sure about hiding my emotions though I do see it doesn’t exactly make her overflow with remorse. I can only say I am trying to be stronger now. But is crying over your life being ripped to shreds a weakness? Of course it isn’t. But I do understand my WW - not the woman I married - may use this against me, in her current world of delusion. I want to be a role model for my precious son. I certainly don’t want to be weak. But I struggle to get my head around which is weak and which is strong - yes, strong is to throw my wife out on Day 1. But then isn’t strong also to do the hardest thing I’ve ever attempted - to forgive my WW’s betrayal of both my son & I, and find a way to save our family so my son grows up with both his mum & dad?? If the argument is that by accepting my WW back I am in some way condoning betrayal in a marriage and teaching my son that this is OK, then all this talk of R - in ANY situation like this, not just mine - is a waste of time, energy and heartache. I can’t believe it is - that a valuable life lesson is also that people are human and make mistakes, that forgiveness is a gift and that there is a bigger picture, that I am capable (if my WW isn’t) of imagining my life (and my son’s) in 10/20/30 years from now & allowing that to influence my choices right now, in 2014… I would never teach my child that any of this is OK - and if I become convinced that my actions will teach him that, then R is an impossibility.

—————

So, here we are. Three weeks last night. My brain is fried. I literally cannot believe I only posted for the first time on here last Wednesday. It feels like months ago. (That CAN’T be right??).

My WW is so in fantasy land I haven’t a clue how to break her out of it (other than to file for D).

Last night I lay down my demands, if we have a hope in hell of R. She (again) refused IC/MC. She has her reasons (being blamed/things in her past being dragged up & used as an excuse) - not that I’m accepting of them. She also refused transparency - there is nothing in the world that can make her understand my need for this, even - it appears - staying with me.

As you keep saying, my WW is in no way in our marriage right now. I am clear on this.

The thing is, and you’re going to have to believe me here, I KNOW that, given a lot of time, my wife WILL come round. But the more I insist/push her… The more she retreats inside her own little world where everything is rosy in the A garden, and the most difficult thing ever in our M. This makes communication almost impossible and - I admit - I find it very hard to keep my cool under such frustrating circumstances (I am trying to be a better person, I am).

The ONLY thing I can see having ANY effect now is a MAJOR 180. Almost complete withdrawal. (There is an irony here of course - this is kind of how we got into this mess, from both sides).

But I’m weak… We ended up having sex last night. I go from hating her - or hating what she’s done to us all - to feeling an overwhelming attraction to her and urge to be with her… What the hell is going on with me??? It sure is messing with my brain - and my WW’s too, it seems - though the guilt she claims to feel I can’t help but wonder about. She claims being intimate with me makes her feel terrible about what she’s done to me, but I can’t help but wonder if she’s really thinking she doesn’t want to throw her lot in with me at the risk of losing her OM/the A.

So, of course, NC is step 1 and 100% non-negotiable. (I can’t believe I’m still here, after three weeks of hell).

I have my first IC session tomorrow morning. It could have been MC, but my WW still refuses to go. And, as luck would have it for her, it’s likely our little boy will be off school again, so she has the perfect excuse. Ditto getting checked for STDs. I’ve told her I’ll be sorting myself this week, whatever the hell she does.

One last point - I removed my wedding ring yesterday (actually before I read your suggestion, tushnurse). Yesterday morning, so way before last night’s pathetic attempt at throwing down the gauntlet. I’ve told her it won’t be going back on until I truly believe she is back in the M, no matter how long that takes or how many questions that provokes from others. She acted like this didn’t bother her - she justified it by saying, ‘well, I don’t always wear mine anyway’, but again, this is SO her. I’m keeping it off as I know it’ll have the desired effect one day. Whether’s it’s soon enough, who knows?

Sorry for the long post and thanks for sticking with me.

It sounds like you have a good idea of who she is, and what she wants.

Does it matter what you want?

Rather than issuing various ultimata, which you know doesn't work all that well, maybe you could try asking her how she intends to proceed.

You say that she ideally wants to remain in the home. Could you ask what path she thinks is appropriate? How, in her mind, will you stay married? Is she capable of outlining a path?

I wish I could punch this OM in the nose for you. Not that violence is ever a great course of action, but it would be nice once in a while if someone could receive a richly deserved anonymous sock in the nose.

Anyway, it does seem like a very difficult case because your wife will say just enough to keep you hooked, but will not keep promises or tell you the truth.

i mean this gently ...

1: at this point nothing your wife says or thinks or does is going to be rational. trying to "reason" with her is a recipe for disaster. her "no one knows what its like to be us" is wandering spouse talk for "my case is exceptional and the rules that govern appropriate behavior dont apply to me".

your chances of getting an acceptable final resolution are zero when you try to nice her back or by begging, there are 10s of 1000s of other people who are just like you and her who have all been through this before and those meaningless statistics say it aint gonna work. period.

2: the longer your wife stays on the fence (undecided or uncommitted to you) the less your chances are of a successful reconciliation.

The thing is, and you’re going to have to believe me here, I KNOW that, given a lot of time, my wife WILL come round. But the more I insist/push her… The more she retreats inside her own little world where everything is rosy in the A garden, and the most difficult thing ever in our M. .

you are so completely wrong that according to einsteins theory of relativity you should be meeting yourself coming the other way. THIS is exactly the kind of thing i was warning you about in the previous post. we have all been here, we have all seen repeated over and over and over ... and this mindset you have will result in either divorce or you accepting her affair as normal. there is no other outcome. read those last two sentences again. now read them again. and then again. keep reading them until you comprehend that. this mentality does NOT work ... EVER.

3: the only way you can push your wife off the fence or "reason" with her is to give her a choice and YOU NEED TO BE PREPARED TO ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES OF HER CHOICE. the 180 isnt to "win her back", its to mentally help you.

your wife agreed to honesty, love, and faithfulness when you got married. her chosing to go OUTSIDE the marriage by cheating is the ONLY thing that broke the marriage because everything else is just problems WITHIN a marriage (and every marriage has problems because no marriage is perfect) and ultimately a marriage is a committment between two people to spend their lives together and to forsake all others.her affair is a violation of a previous agreement with you (marriage vows) and she broke this agreement without your consent and without your knowledge.

its time to establish your boundaries and consequences to them. you cant control her choices or actions but you can control what you are willing to accept.

she can choose her secrets, her lies, and her affairs if she wants. you cant make her chose to stop but you can choose to not accept her behavior if she wants to continue. if she chooses the secrets, lies, and affairs then you will be forced to reconsider your committment to the marriage and your relationship to her.

read that again. you arent asking her for transparency. you arent negotiating. you tell her she can do whichever she wants, its her choice. you just arent prepared to accept her choosing the secrets, lies, and affair over you. then be prepared to enforce your boundary.

if her choice is to stop the secrets, lies, and her affair then she needs to stop keeping secrets, stop lying, and stop the affair. this is done with transparency, honesty, and no contact.

this is the first big step.

you need to give her a BIG push off that fence and to either have her commit to you and your marriage or her bullshit. its that simple.

if she chooses to end the affair, secrets, and lies ... then ...

- no contact (blocking his number, sending an email that you approve of telling him - there are samples all over the internet you can use or easily modify, changing her email address and closing down the old one, deleting her facebook profile, removing chat applications from her phone, etc - however she contacted him has to be stopped)

- transparency (passwords to everything including the phone)

- honesty (a radical honesty that includes classifying concealing, minimizing, or anything less than 100% honesty as lie).

without these three basic things there is NO HOPE and NO CHANCE. there is no resolving ANY of the other issues without resolving these three first, there is no way to bypass these three things.

i know we often talk about "the fog" for a wandering spouse. however, there is also "the fog" for a betrayed spouse. i mean this post gently but also firmly in an attempt snap YOU out of your fog. i do so because i care about you. everyone that has "been there, done that" is telling you the same thing ... because it IS what works. what you are trying doesnt work, never has and never will.

[This message edited by william at 5:09 AM, May 6th (Tuesday)]

(((saveus)))

Your behavior and thought patterns are screaming codependency.

You're trying to get into her head saying that she will come around. Brother, I hate to say this, but she is cake eating and you need to face this reality....

She. may. never. come. around.

It is imperative that you gain your OWN strength instead of gaining your strength from the empty promises and hollow words from your WW. It is time to let go. It is time to do what is effective than do what your emotions are telling you to do. Follow your brain, not your heart.

I wish I could shake you into seeing this situation for what it is. You are floundering between the precontemplative stage and contemplative stage of change. For you to be able to survive this, you must begin to move into the preparation stage and action stage. Then, you will learn that it gets easier with time and you will begin the maintenance stage.

Since you are between the precontemplative and contemplative, you are defending against everything I am saying right now. Only you can choose to take off the rose-colored lenses through which you are viewing your situation and do something about it.

Your post has received so much attention because of how blind you have been. We are all here posting because we care about your situation and want you to be able to do what you need to do to keep your sanity and get out of this situation as a whole person.

Again, you will dismiss this post now, but 5 months from now I don't want you to wish that you had followed our advice. She is doing everything wrong from a reconciliation standpoint and you are going to stunt your healing, ESPECIALLY if you guys are having sex.

[This message edited by knockeddown at 5:02 AM, May 6th (Tuesday)]

You have enough great advice here to write a book but until you start to act on it it is meaningless and will not help you. If you do not issue the ultimatums and follow thru, she is going to keep living in your home with you and having sex with this guy whenever she wants. The emotional hell that you are going thru will continue and eventually affect your health and your job, which will really impact your so. In a negative way. The best way for your son to come out ok is for his father to be a healthy role model and not a basket case that is getting treated like crap by an unrepentant cheater who is still cheating. And that shows no sign of ending. You are at the point where the 180 does not mean anything to her, only you filing for D might have some impact . Why should she change otherwise? She gets to bang other guy and you out up with it.

I apologize for being harsh but sometimes tough works. You are in control of your situation IF you want to be, which at present you do not bad enough to act. Time to buckle your chin strap and strike back

The thing is, and you’re going to have to believe me here, I KNOW that, given a lot of time, my wife WILL come round. But the more I insist/push her… The more she retreats inside her own little world where everything is rosy in the A garden, and the most difficult thing ever in our M. This makes communication almost impossible and - I admit - I find it very hard to keep my cool under such frustrating circumstances

There is no M. She's not in the marriage. What else do you need to know? She's acting like a petulant teenager and manipulating you.

The guilt that she feels about having sex with you is because she feels guilty for fucking you and cheating on her boyfriend with her husband!!! Read that again. How does that make you feel? Get strong and stand up for yourself brother!!!

Force her off the fence. To do that you are going to need more than the 180. 180 is a start but she knows you'll cave and she'll be willing to cheat on her boyfriend with you when it serves her purpose. Though she will lie to her boyfriend about sleeping with you and she'll say she's doing everything in her power to save herself for him, because that's what her boyfriend wants to hear. Getting the point yet?

File for D and let her know there's not going to be a 5 years from now.

ETA - there are reasons like I just put in this post of why she will never let you see her phone. She's already left the marriage. If her boyfriend asked her to get a place together tomorrow, what do you think her answer would be?

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 5:34 AM, May 6th (Tuesday)]

Lots of good advice and responses, but I want to highlight this clip from William's last post:

2: the longer your wife stays on the fence (undecided or uncommitted to you) the less your chances are of a successful reconciliation.

The thing is, and you’re going to have to believe me here, I KNOW that, given a lot of time, my wife WILL come round. But the more I insist/push her… The more she retreats inside her own little world where everything is rosy in the A garden, and the most difficult thing ever in our M. .

you are so completely wrong that according to einsteins theory of relativity you should be meeting yourself coming the other way. THIS is exactly the kind of thing i was warning you about in the previous post. we have all been here, we have all seen repeated over and over and over ... and this mindset you have will result in either divorce or you accepting her affair as normal. there is no other outcome. read those last two sentences again. now read them again. and then again. keep reading them until you comprehend that. this mentality does NOT work ... EVER.

This is YOUR fog. You don't know anything about her for certain. I am sure that you *knew* that she would never cheat on you....like I *knew* about my own wife....yet, here I am, on an infidelity website, offering advice.

I am not jumping up and down screaming for you to file for divorce. The truth is, divorce is merely the finality to the eventualities of an ending marriage. If nothing was to change with your WW's behavior, I would be willing to bet that you wouldn't stay forever. Divorce would eventually be your salvation---not this scary beast that you are currently afraid of.

I get this. I really do. It took me a long time to realize that divorce was actually a better option than what I was currently living in. But let's put divorce aside for a moment.

If your theory was correct, and your WW eventually "came around".....then what? Are you saying that she would then be open to counseling? Open to transparency, and all the other factors that go into reconciliation? Or are you stating that she will simply find empathy for what you are going through?

You have stated her resistance to counseling. Why do you think she would go, after she came around? What I see from where I sit, which admittedly is not a lot, is that if your WW eventually came around, she would feel bad, try to reconnect with you, make some efforts to please you...and then want to put this behind her. The problem with that is, that no real work will have been done, the two of you will be together in the physical state, but nowhere near reconciled, and eventually, the problems will resurface....maybe in another affair. Maybe not. But there will be emotional walls in place that neither of you will be able to overcome.

So stop fearing divorce. When that point comes(if it needs to), you won't be afraid of it like you are right now. But what you REALLY have to overcome, is your fear to take action.

You are looking at consequence as a punishment. That simply is not true. Transparency is not punishment. No Contact is not punishment. Honesty is not punishment. And you not accepting her poor behavior is not punishment. You state that if you insist and push her, that she will retreat. So what would your plan of action be? Wait until her affair fizzles out? If that is the case, then you should be happy...because you know, in a certain amount of time, that she will be back in the marriage.

Do you see how bad this looks in print?

Bottom line--

You don't know what she will do in the future. Also, you can't fix her, or solve her problems for her. All you can do is work on yourself, and be the best that you can for your child. With only those certainties, stop trying to control the outcome, when it comes to the marriage. If you work on yourself, and get yourself to a good mental state, I can assure you that the other pieces will fall into place.

Again, I am not asking you to kill hope of saving your marriage. I am asking you to do the right thing---stand up for yourself. Demand the love and respect that you deserve in a marriage.

The personal shortcomings you mentioned that led to the poor state of the marriage prior to the affair? Work on them, but only because you want to better yourself for either this marriage, or a future one. But don't try to change for your WW.

Be the best that you can be. And part of that is not accepting what your WW is giving. Don't let fear navigate you through this.

The more she retreats inside her own little world where everything is rosy in the A garden,

The only way to get her off of the fence, out of the fog and to see reality is to tear up the garden.

No rosy garden for her.

Make the affair as hell as possible. She wants to live 2 separate lives, tough.

She is not stopping the affair or trying to.

What would destroy the fantasy world, what do you think would destroy her rosy world and get her back into reality.

Only real things and your words to her are not real. She might hear them but they go into one ear and out the other.

You can talk to her until you are blue in the face and she will not hear your words.

You need to tear up her rosy garden now. What would do that? Something needs to get her into reality.

She thinks it is a rosy garden being with some guy who obviously loves to cheat being divorced three times.

Just tear up her garden, stomp all over it. No more roses for her and no more simple rosy affair.

without these three basic things there is NO HOPE and NO CHANCE. there is no resolving ANY of the other issues without resolving these three first, there is no way to bypass these three thing

I would like to add that at the foundation of all of this is REMORSE. And there is the rub, for even if she made a calculated decision to comply with all if this, if it does not rest upon a firm foundation of sincere remorse, then even these will fail. Without a horrifying realization of what SHE ALONE has done and the pain it has caused to others than herself, it is only a matter of time until she begins to resent you for "forcing" her to have her "privacy" invaded. And concurrent with this will begin again her justifications for her behavior. You will not necessarily be aware that she is justifying again and resenting you; she will keep these feelings private. But they will inevitably appear.

And inextricably intertwined with remorse is EMPATHY.

Remorse and empathy cannot be forced upon another person. They must come raging from within oneself. If they could be forced, or negotiated, or extracted through logic, recommended articles, or heartfelt letters, then none of us would be here, Saveus. My X met all the above requirements briefly a few times but fell back into the affair because she did not feel remorse, she did not feel empathy.

Eventually what will happen comes down to two scenarios: she will experience an epiphany of remorse and empathy and you will slowly, painfully begin to work on your new relationship. Or you will endure continuing and worse hell until the pain supersedes your fear, and you will truly act with courage, dignity and self-respect. This will not remove you from pain, but the pain will be accompanied by a knowledge that you fought a long hard battle for all the right reasons and are acting out of strength, not weakness.

Either way you will know, Saveus.

Keep posting.

According to her, there is no ‘text book’, there are no patterns of behaviour, statistics are just statistics - we are us and no-one knows what it’s like to be us.

Saveus, I just read this, and guess what? My X sad THE SAME THING. Nearly verbatim. Hence your wife is proved wrong, correct? There is nothing original here. I know that this is something that sticks in your throat still. I know it because...I felt it too! (You see?) And moreover, divorced over a month and two years from D-Day and its ensuing hell, I STILL have moments when I catch myself thinking this--that my situation is unique.

We feel this because it helps us maintain the hope that our situation can be saved: If my situation is unique and different, then all these people's advice is flawed. Therefore I will keep doing what I am doing (allowing her to continue her affair, maintaining my role as husband, having sex with her, etc.) and she will come around.

I am not saying your situation cannot be saved at all. I hope deeply that your wife will experience an epiphany; some do. I am just pointing out the logic involved--or lack thereof.

Stay strong, Saveus. We are not just some crowd of bitter souls. We all loved fiercely our partners and our families.

(And BTW, I will admit that I still love my X. But that changes nothing. I am continuing to work on myself to figure out why I would love someone who was so shockingly vile to me and our children.)

Saveus - You have received excellent advice so far.

I am thrilled that you are taking care of you, getting to an IC, getting set up for STD testing. But you are missing a MAJOR step here. YOU need to get to an Attorney. YOU NEED TO KNOW what your rights are, and what her obligations are. This is an absolute MUST for any BS that has a foggy WS. YOU have to get the information so you can operate from a place of knowledge. Not from fear of the unknown.

Right now you are still in the early stages of grief, and you are grieving the marriage and the wife you believed you had. The first stage being denial. No this isn't happening, No we won't get divorced.

The next bargaining - which are starting to do. If I don't push to hard she will come around, if I try to be nice about all this she will eventually see the error of her ways. (THIS IS BULLSHIT BTW).

You need to fast forward to acceptance of She destroyed what was your M, and what you believed to be true and strong in it. You need this so you can be strong for you and your child.

She is not putting your needs, the family's needs, or your childs needs anywhere close to the top of her list. She is putting herself, and her A first.

You need to attempt to implement 180 and do it hard and fast. This is to protect you from her manipulations. Because last night she was able to pull you in, manipulate, and even got some nookie from you, and that left you feeling what?

Weak, beaten, and less worthy.

NOPE 180 is for you to gain strength and insight. To stop the manipulation, to see the situation for what it is.

Keep reading, keep posting.

(((and strength)))

Savedus,

I am one of those that don’t think “true remorse” is required to start reconciliation. I DEFINITELY think it’s required to reconcile and it is definitely 100% one of the major milestones in R, but a) I don’t think it’s necessary to start R and b) I doubt ANY WS is capable of true remorse until and unless they fully grasp the seriousness and extend of their actions. That tends to be something that happens in the work needed to R.

IMHO “all” that is required to start reconciliation is a) a clear commitment and b) NC with the AP.

The commitment needs to be very clear. It’s not “I guess we could try” or “OK – since I don’t have any options” or “Yeah… maybe it’s better than divorce”. It has to be something like “Yes – I have decided that I want to work on our marriage and that decision is totally mine”.

The NC… has to be enforceable in the sense that YOU need to feel assured. Fact is no matter how you monitor it then if your WW wants to contact OM she will.

I can fully understand your need and desire to save your marriage. This advice it TOTALLY 100% geared at that.

I don’t see your wife as worse or more corrupt or less wife material than other WS. We have prominent members here that have recovered their marriages from multiple affairs and multiple partners. We have prominent WS posting here in recovered marriages that had multiple affairs and affair partners. Your marriage is recoverable… IF conditions are met!

Let’s look into what you can do to make her want to meet your conditions:

Once you establish these simple statements as facts:

I refuse to share my wife.

Losing her is the lesser of two evils.

I can’t control her actions.

I can’t make her end the affair.

Then you can set off out of infidelity. This is best described as a journey…

Imagine you HAD to go to a distant city. Not going isn’t really an option for you. You decide to go by train and ask your WW to come with you. She refuses. As the date comes closer you keep asking her. She agrees to drive you to the station. Then to wait while you buy the ticket. You offer to get her one. She refuses but you buy one anyway. She follows you to the platform and there you talk. You get on the train, once again asking her to come. She says maybe but doesn’t come on board. The train starts pulling out of the station and you call out a window that she can still jump on board… She remains on the platform and the train pulls away.

At the end of the day you get to your destination. You gave your WW every opportunity to take this journey with you. But YOU have to commit to the next steps as they come along.

OK – Your journey is to get out of infidelity. It’s NOT to save your marriage. While in infidelity saving your marriage is NOT a possibility. The text I shared with you where you tell your wife that you won’t share her and that you need a clear vocal commitment… that’s you telling your wife you are leaving infidelity.

You are STILL offering her the option to move with you.

My WW is so in fantasy land I haven’t a clue how to break her out of it (other than to file for D).

You break fantasy by making the fantasy reality.

Make fantasy reality and all of a sudden that unicorn is simply a donkey with a stupid cone taped to its forehead.

So you move on. You start the process of gathering info for divorce. Not that you wish to D or intend to D. It’s more like phoning the Fire Department is something you do when your house is on fire. You start looking for attorneys. You start evaluating how your life will be without her. You start making arrangements for who might move out and so on.

No rush, no stupid or dramatic gestures. You simply plod along.

You remain cordial to your wife. You can make it clear that your preference would be to reconcile “but since you chose to remain in infidelity it isn’t really an option is it?”

You make being in the affair hard.

You refuse to finance it. You refuse to stay at home so she can be with OM. You refuse to allow it to be “romantic” by keeping quiet about it. You talk openly with her about “are you going to see your affair partner” (never call him lover or by his name – his title is affair partner).

You expose to those that you think can have positive effects on her behavior. You let these people know that you have decided to refuse sharing her and for NOW you are open for reconciliation IF SHE COMMITS. All discussions about why the marriage is in this state and so on… Non-relevant as long as she isn’t committed.

You refuse to remain in a situation where she can keep her security blanket and her lover. You force her hand to choose between remaining with you and remaining in infidelity.

You make your marriage attractive.

It’s OK being sad around her but you need to control it. You want her to feel attracted to you – not feel sympathy. So start thinking of yourself. Do exercise. Be active. Start having a life without her doing things that excite you. Get a new haircut. Shower more often. Get some new clothes. Take your son out for something exciting. Make changes in the house. Start making plans for the future, look at travel brochures for places you have always wanted to see…

None of this is done for HER. It’s all for you. It will give your purpose and goals, but it also makes you stronger, more distant and more exciting. That in turn might make her start wondering what she’s risking…

You make leaving the marriage hard.

Look buddy – she’s already left. All that’s left to do is clean up the mess. At the moment she’s checked out but she has yet to do the dishes and sweep the floors. And she’s getting away with it.

So you check your rights in a divorce. You make sure that despite it having financial impact you really don’t have options while she’s in infidelity. You refuse to accept non-realistic compromises like you have the house one week and she the next. You start the process of a real, hardcore divorce.

Look around at your divorced friends. How many of them still hang around their exes? How many of them are “friends”?

Divorce is the termination of a marriage – not an alternative marriage.

You don’t need to make divorce harder than it is. Even amicable divorce is a bitch. You simply keep the pressure on her that IF she does not commit then the inevitable outcome is divorce. And just like you were willing to jump on that train then IF she doesn’t come on board then eventually you leave the station.

To date it’s all been act-react. She does something -> you react -> she reacts -> you react and so on…

My advice is based on changing that. It’s based on you reacting and acting on REALITY rather than her actions. The REALITY is that she’s in infidelity. The REALITY is that while she’s infidelity the marriage is non-maintainable. You are reacting to THOSE facts rather than her decisions and actions. So if she decides to prance around in a see-through dress telling you she’s going out on a date with OM… it hurts but really isn’t relevant while she’s not committed to the marriage. You don’t react to THAT but you definitely act on the fact she’s not in the marriage.

Do this and the power becomes yours.