SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

While normally I agree with CanoeVA, I don't agree with this:

The boundary for work should be "Pack your desk and give notice TODAY"

You do stay at home dad thing, her leaving work could really backfire. Talk to your attorney about this before you ask for it.

DNA test your kids. It won't make a difference if they're yours. But it will if they're not. They won't know what you're doing unless they're told. But you need to know. Do it while she's at work so that you don't have to worry about her trying to make you feel guilty for it. You need to know how far back her lies go. If you have to cry while you do it? That's okay. I know I did. But I also know the relief that I felt for finding out. I never even thought it was a source of anxiety until her cheating, but now I can look back see the doubt had always been there.

Now please go back and read Jobin's last reply to your post. Read all of these posts again. You will see exactly ZERO supporting your wife's assertion that it's over. Let that sink in.

There is a reason that you have more than 100 responses in less than a day of posting this.

You feel guilty for your thoughts straying? Okay. You think there is potential to work things out? There is. We aren't telling you there isn't. We're telling you the correct methodology, the precise formula, the magical elixir needed to see what that potential is and to prepare you for the next steps. And for right now, the next steps coincide with the process for BOTH reconciliation AND divorce.

It's hard to read this. I know. My first post here was a struggle to read, and every time I got another response I felt like it was another nail in my coffin. It's okay to feel like this. It's not the end of the world, you can and will survive. You don't have a choice.

So please, go back and read all of these responses man. As many times as you need to in order to see the mindframe that's gonna get you to the best place the fastest.

I am currently reading No More Mr Nice guy. This is a little freaky close to me.

I'm up and down right now. The 180 is hard to consistently do. I'm not thinking of her as the enemy. I know I should, it's just almost impossible for me to do that.

I'm going to reapply myself to the 180, but honestly I really don't even know if I want to work on a R. I keep having the thought that I will never be able to fully trust her again. I don't want that.

what Nononsense said three posts above. Word for word.

Sounds like you are about to let her off the hook. Not good

I'm back down at a low point.

Welcome to the roller coaster from hell. Please keep your hands inside the ride at all times. You're going to be all over the place for a while. One day or even hour you'll be up and feeling like you got this shit under control, the next day or hour you'll be right back at the bottom of that black pit. Hang on cuz it's the most wild ride you've been on and your WW bought you the ticket.

It will get better. Over time the lows will become less low and shorter and the highs will become longer.

who wants to be with a sobbing person.

I spent months crying every day. Every man here did, and they'll all admit it. I cried more in those first months than I have in my entire adult life, including funerals. You should find yourself a good IC to help you navigate through this shit storm. It really does help. Having someone to talk to in person saved me during the dark times and during the rage times. Check your insurance, mine paid for the service the same as a doctor office visit, no limits. You need help navigating this or you'll tear yourself up inside.

She broke down, and I mean really broke down after she saw me attempting to get the emails back.

I imagine she did. But honestly it's probably regret at getting caught, fear of embarrassment, not remorse at this stage. I think she's probably afraid you'll discover the details she wants to hide from you. Hide from you in order to "protect you", in order to "not hurt you more." That's bullshit. That's her protecting herself. Remorse means that she gives you all the information you need, now and in one lump. Willingly. She has to realize that every time you uncover another truth or detail that it's another stab wound to your heart. The only way to reveal this is all at once. Unfortunately they don't understand this. This is the "trickle truth" and it can be deadly.

I realize now how much I truly care for her. It hurts me to know how far astray I went.

I get that. We all loved our wives. But right now you need to emotionally detach yourself from her. Not to punish her, but to protect yourself. Realize that right now this woman isn't your best friend, your partner in life, the woman you married anymore. She doesn't have your best interest at heart right now. Her motivation right now is to protect her ass, not yours.

I didn't have the affair, but I was a really shitty husband.

Maybe. Probably not. Were you perfect? No. Were you a totally shitty husband? No. If you were, you wouldn't be here talking to us and listening to advice. You wouldn't give a shit about your WW, and you'd have kicked her out of the house the moment you found out, probably with a black eye. Instead you're here, in agony and trying to navigate your way through the minefield your WW has laid out for you. That isn't a shitty uncaring husband.

Keep posting, we're here to help.

[This message edited by tbkjcn at 8:27 AM, July 17th (Friday)]

again she cheated, you didn't.

Your self pity comes back often.

Your wife cheated, deleted everything, has lied and is still in contact with this guy.

You made progress in getting an appointment with good attorneys, and with getting to the extent of what happened. You have backtracked with going into MC way too early, and not demanding accountability or transparency with your WW.

You are lacking a gameplan. Develop one !!

She broke down, and I mean really broke down after she saw me attempting to get the emails back. They are gone for good. She did a great job at all.

What do you mean she broke down?

There are ways to get the emails, and a professional can get them all back for you.

What do you mean you were a real shitty husband. Your self pity and self blaming is only going to make things harder for you to recover.

It is now time for your wife to start showing she really does want to stay married. So far, I have not seen anything you have written that indicates she is willing to do whatever it takes.

You need to put a VAR in her car.

You need to snoop.

You need to know what is happening in your life right now and she cannot be trusted.

If you allow yourself to blame you for her affair and then rug sweep this, it will not end well.

You do need to realize, she had the affair, you did not have an affair. You did not cause this.

And now she is doing everything in her power to hide the truth, which in reality is very controlling of her. Liars control others, through their lies.

I didn't have the affair, but I was a really shitty husband.

Maybe. Probably not. Were you perfect? No. Were you a totally shitty husband? No. If you were, you wouldn't be here talking to us and listening to advice. You wouldn't give a shit about your WW, and you'd have kicked her out of the house the moment you found out, probably with a black eye. Instead you're here, in agony and trying to navigate your way through the minefield your WW has laid out for you. That isn't a shitty uncaring husband.

WOW, that is soo true tbkjcn, you are so spot on

ICanOvercome Your gaslighting yourself

You may think 'oh no, she is SOOOO sorry. You should see her - she is a sobbing mess!"

Oh, but I did see this. Saw my own wife on the floor, curled up in a ball crying.

Then she went to work and they talked every possible moment on the office communicator system, and her work phone. Talked about the tragedy of their lost love, talked about managing me - keeping me from outing them at work etc.

You are totally kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

100% TRUTH

I guess this is just a process that I am going through. It sucks.

I am going back and forth between wanting to keep going or just getting out. It's hard and I haven't slept but maybe 5 real hours in the past 5 days.

I am taking it slow until I meet with the lawyer. Again, I don't want to tip her off.

I keep having this thought that maybe she is being truthful. I know everyone says no, the affair is still on-going. What if it is not?

I worry that if I do serve her with divorce papers that may be the end of it. She may decide that it isn't worth going through all of this. I don't really know how I would feel if that happened. Maybe relief or maybe regret.

I am sure I am gas-lighting myself. Or I am still able to trust to some degree. The truth of the matter is that until I know what I want to do, I don't think that I want to push her away.

I am doing the 180. I am trying to do some self-help and self-identification.

I am glad that I do not have excruciating images of her and him stuck in my head on repeat. That might be what is making me a little more reluctant to push to the fullest extent.

She has seen two ICs. She found one today that seemed to be good. That IC told her that she needs to be willing to let go of the job if she wants to keep the marriage. I know I cannot trust what she says right now. Right now she is saying the right stuff. Saying that she is looking for a new job.

I know everyone here wants her to quit right away. She makes a good deal more than I do. Really, even if she does quit, she could easily have contact with the OM again. I don't really get the luxury of thinking it is all over just because she quits her job.

I also didn't demand that she quit her job. I told her that she needed to find a new one. I think we'd possibly get financially devastated if she up and quit.

I know full and well that if I decide to stay in this marriage, I will never trust her fully again. At this point, I am not 100% sure that I can do that. It's too early. I also feel like I do not want to push her away.

I was too quick to say that I wanted to stay in the marriage. She probably was too.

I am going a little slower now since really, what's the rush? If she is going to continue the relationship it is going to be nearly impossible for me to get evidence. She'll be even more sneaky.

What about that small chance that she is doing what needs to be done? I know it seems unlikely, but some cheaters must have been able to do it. Maybe that's silly to cling to, but where I am at right now, it's comforting.

I am going to get my ducks in a row. I still plan to meet with the lawyers, who are not free for a consultation.

She said that she has not talked to him all week. This is a first time in a long time that has been the case. It is hard but is getting easier. I bet they all say that though. She's telling me what I want to hear, but what if it is the truth?

ICan,

I guess this is just a process that I am going through. It sucks.

It is a process. And yes, it sucks. Bigtime. Going through this was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. But it gets better. D or R, one way or the other it will get better. The only way it doesn't get better is if you do nothing. And I don't think you're doing nothing. You're taking action based on information at hand and that's the important part.

I am going back and forth between wanting to keep going or just getting out.

That's normal. Remember the rollercoaster. Hang on tight.

I haven't slept but maybe 5 real hours in the past 5 days.

I know it's hard, but you have to take care of yourself first. Eat. Drink (water). Sleep. See your Dr if you have to. He can help.

I am taking it slow until I meet with the lawyer.

Good. Not everyone is of the same opinion, but I believe in not making hasty choices if that's not your style. There's nothing that you have to decide today. Tomorrow is soon enough. I told myself shortly after D-Day that I wouldn't make any permanent decisions until at least 3 months down the road. But I'm not one to make emotional decisions and I knew that raw emotion was the only thing I had at that time. Remember, consulting the lawyer, or even having divorce papers drawn up and filed doesn't commit you to any course of action. You can stop the process at any time right up till the point a judge says "Granted" and that's months away. But it shows you're taking action, and that's good.

I worry that if I do serve her with divorce papers that may be the end of it. She may decide that it isn't worth going through all of this.

Consider that statement for a minute. Let's say you do file D papers. Let's say your WW upon seeing them immediately throws in the towel and takes off. What's that say about her commitment to R? Would you want to stay married to someone who didn't want to be there? Who didn't want to put in the years of hard work (and it takes years -- ask some of the guys here that have successfully R'd) that R will take? If that were to happen you'd still be better off than you are today. Ask some of the guys over in the Menz thread about false R. Find some of the guys here in this thread, click on the smiley face and read their stories. I hated losing my wife. But the thought of being with someone who's only reason for staying was that leaving is too hard scared me even more.

I am doing the 180. I am trying to do some self-help and self-identification.

Good. Your focus right now is on you. Do things for you. Find things that make you happy and go do them. Discover yourself again.

That IC told her that she needs to be willing to let go of the job if she wants to keep the marriage.

That's a promising start to this IC. Much better than that crap MC.

I know everyone here wants her to quit right away. She makes a good deal more than I do.

Only you know your whole situation. We're just strangers on the Internet, and we can't tell you what to do, we can only share the collective knowledge of thousands of shitty situations. If you feel that you need to get your financial ducks in a row then that's the right decision for you.

if I decide to stay in this marriage, I will never trust her fully again. At this point, I am not 100% sure that I can do that. It's too early.

And that sucks. I told my WW shortly after D-Day the same thing. I was willing to try but I promised nothing. If she stayed and tried it might be all for nothing. In the end she decided leaving was easier. Right now it's too early for you to answer that question too. If your WW truly finds remorse and commits to you and your M, then the uncertainty wont matter to her. She will be trying to prove to you each and every day that she is worthy of staying with you and that each day is a victory. You're not there yet, but could be.

If she is going to continue the relationship it is going to be nearly impossible for me to get evidence. She'll be even more sneaky.

And that's yet another shitty aspect of this whole shitstorm. For a long time you're going to be in detective mode. And for some guys that makes R not even an option. And that's OK. R or D, one is no more honorable than the other. It's your choice, not hers or mine or anyone here.

Keep posting, we're here.

I can't tell you how reading your posts breaks my heart - because I hear my own voice when I read them.

I was you - aside from the more money part - I was totally you.

I understand your fear. It's based in shock and love. You just can't believe this is happening, and want things to be 'normal'. You want her to be the 'old' her. Believing her makes that possible.

It took me well over a year to finally see and understand HER mindset at this time. It SUCKS to learn what they were doing/thinking, but it is REALITY...

Can you pretend you are not talking about your wife and yourself and look at this with JUST LOGIC?

Here it is:

- She was in LOVE with him. For at least a year, probably more.

- She did not end it - it was still TOTALLY on when you found out.

- She didn't fall apart and come clean, she lied to your face.

- She didn't come running back to you, she said she needed time.

Now, if a person was in love with a guy, and had a way of speaking to that person - a way their current husband could NEVER find out - would they? Or would they choose to deny themselves communication with a person they are in LOVE with, at a time when that RELATIONSHIP (and it is a relationship) is being terminally threatened?

Use your logical brain only and answer that question....

Before you say 'well you are just a bitter divorced guy who was cheated on' - my wife and I are currently together...

You don't want to 'make' her quit... Neither did I. Fine. REPORT HIM at least. At LEAST tell his wife. You need to do these things NOT for revenge but because it is your ONLY chance at blowing up this fantasy world. SHE will NOT do it. No matter what she tells you - she will NOT do it.

ICO,

Take your time. Only you know what to expect and what is actually going on, so don't be in a rush to do anything you will regret in the long run.

If you feel your wife is telling the truth and willing to do the work to reconcile, I would recommend becoming a a real good detective - start with a VAR in her car, and in a place she won't find it, and not in the seat pocket behind her seat. Track her - there a many phone apps etc on ways to do this.

By doing this, this will give you peace of mind, and if she is telling the truth, and you decide to R, just knowing that she is sticking to her word, will allow you to move forward and the pain you are feeling, to heal much faster.

I am about nine months out, and the first few months were rough, but as time has gone by, and I have seen that everything she has said and done have been all truth and no lies, I have reached a point that I think about the affair once or twice a day from a low point of thinking it about it all day. In the first few months, I lost interest in work, and spent all my spare time checking on her. Now I am working hard, checking on her two or three times a week, and feeling a lot better.

If she is willing to do the work, and you have proof of this, don't be in a rush to serve her with divorce papers. Take your time. do the 180 as best you can, do your detective work, and decide on a divorce later.

Your can always divorce, or serve divorce papers later, but as you have experienced, it is hard to repair and undo something once it is done. Take your time, and do what is best for your and your children.

I keep having this thought that maybe she is being truthful. I know everyone says no, the affair is still on-going. What if it is not?

YES, she is being truthful, she has ended affair-related contact with other man. And YES, the affair is still on-going (but she doesn't know it yet). She is in love with the other man. She works with him. She is pining away for him. She WILL start this up. Or other man will start it up. She is in the AFFAIR MIND. Her first reaction is to lie, then tell the truth after she has been caught. She says she will do what she must to stay married, but not only if you say so, not on her own initiative, and then she contradicts that she doesn't tell you the truth until you find out another lie. Her ATTITUDE and ACTIONS based on what you have posted about her, she still is in the thought process of a cheater.

Has she told you anything true that you didn't find out first?

Maybe she will get out of it on her own. I doubt it if she still has access to him at work and you have no way to know.

Has the other man's wife been told yet?

[This message edited by wk55hn at 6:04 PM, July 17th (Friday)]

I agree WK55

I have found out more now. Because of spying. I see the chat history of her and one of her friends. She spells it all out. They didn't have sex overseas, they had it right here in my hometown. He came over here.

They been seeing each other for around a year but she had feelings for him before my second daughter was even born.

I can't do this. I thought it was my anger that brought her to this with the traveling, but she barely traveled during that time.

This is about far more than me and my relationship to her. I also remembered a time when she got very close to another man online. I stopped it then. I see a pattern now.

This post above was from you yesterday afternoon. She's been thinking like a cheater for years, back to another man online she did and you had to stop it. Do you think she turned it all around and is truthful all of a sudden since yesterday, when her patterns have been as a cheater for years?

This is a process, it doesn't happen overnight.

I keep having this thought that maybe she is being truthful. I know everyone says no, the affair is still on-going. What if it is not?

Everything has to be verified. You can not trust anything she says at this time unless it is verified.

If your wife cannot understand that, then that is a problem.

Trust, but verify is a saying by a former president.

You have to be able to verify, and it sounds like your wife is not allowing you to do that.

Many marriages get better after an affair, because so much is learned after an affair. But it takes the WW to become 100% fully responsible and she has to do everything you ask of her.

And that means proof, that means verifying and that means total accountability of everything she does and who she talks to, and where she is at all times.

Trust has to be rebuilt and if your wife thinks she doesnt have to do anything, something is wrong.

As for her job, well she screwed that up and you might have to find an alternative to finances.

There are consequences for her bad choices.

She can never travel again, if not quit her job, then she needs to be in a part of the job where she never travels again.

You must contact the OM and make sure he knows you know. The affair must end and you must expose the affair. Start by telling her parents and talking it over with them.

Let's say you do file D papers. Let's say your WW upon seeing them immediately throws in the towel and takes off. What's that say about her commitment to R? Would you want to stay married to someone who didn't want to be there? Who didn't want to put in the years of hard work (and it takes years -- ask some of the guys here that have successfully R'd) that R will take? If that were to happen you'd still be better off than you are today.

THIS! Filing D papers seems absurdly counter-intuitive at first. But it will send a very clear message: I will not be in a marriage with infidelity. I haven't done it, but based on many, many posts I have read here, it is not likely to push her away.

And feeling like you were a shitty husband? Please know that we have ALL felt like that. And sometimes it was even true. But this doesn't excuse the affair. If you were a bad husband her job was to work with you on improving the marriage or ask for a divorce. She didn't do that. And you know why? The most likely reason is that you weren't nearly the "shitty husband" you imagine yourself to be.

Sorry for the situation. You said

I keep having the thought that I will never be able to fully trust her again. I don't want that.

Trust is broken big time in your marriage. I can tell you it's gone forever.

I worry that if I do serve her with divorce papers that may be the end of it.

From now on you are in a poker game. IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, YOU HAVE TO BE READY TO RISK LOSING IT...and if she does leave you, it will just mean that she was already too far gone.

[This message edited by marbou888 at 12:31 AM, July 18th (Saturday)]

So yesterday was an interesting day.

We had a good day. It started weird. We were awkward together. We had lunch out together. I first suggested it and then sort of took it back. Put the ball in her court.

I've been fallowing the 180 religiously except I did ask her if she wanted to go lunch. Old habits...

It was weird at first. As time kept going on, the silence started to fade. The internal work I've been doing has been paying off. I wasn't angry or sad. I was clear and healthy? I'm not really sure.

The day progressed onward. I followed the 180, it was easy. Basically act happy, be happy. Truly be happy. I worked out. I had fun with my kids.

We took the kids out (her suggestion) and we had a wonderful time. I was happy the whole time, and I do mean truly happy. I was a dad that I had rarely been.

On the way home, while the kids were asleep, she tells me that she wants to talk when we get home.

We put the kids to bed and come together and talk. She's had a session with a therapist that was actually good. The therapist did not tell her what to do, but told her she'll know what to do when the time is right. Whether to stay or go, whether to choose the OM or me.

She said it hit her while I was playing with the kids how stupid she had been. She knows it was a fantasy and she loves me and wants to be with me.

She went on and told me that she wasn't honest about how closely she works with the OM. He's on "loan" to her boss. They both work in the UK. It can vary how much contact they have with one another. Sometimes once a day they email. Friday was 3 or 4 times.

She said that in no uncertain terms have they had any non-work conversations. All of their emails have been completely business-like. I can have access to her work computer any time. I can check her phone anytime. She doesn't care. She wants to be with me.

He is under a project where he has to prove himself. There is another two-ish months left on this project then he's out of the picture. He'd still be in the company, maybe. He hates his boss. He won't go back to working for her.

She said that she will tell me if he ever tries to talk non-business with her. They agreed no phone calls solo. No meetings solo.

She swears, and I can look, that it has been all professional this whole week but she was scared that I would force her to quit her job right then. That's why she wouldn't let me listen in when she put an end to the affair. That I would know the extent to which they work together.

She said it hit her today that as much as she loves her job, she would quit it for me. For us. For our kids.

If there is every a conflict of interest, such as somehow him getting put in her department, that would be it. She would quit her job.

She admits she was sad at having to lose him. They talked every day for a year. They haven't talked (besides business only emails) this week. She was sad that he is going to be on vacation next week. She said that she wanted to reach out to him on Friday, before he left. But she did not. She said every day it is getting easier. Next week will help. They will have no contact.

She said she read a quote that really resonated with her, "You can't have a little cocaine and hope to feel a little better." Something to that effect at least. She says that she can't expect a little "Hi, how are you?" emails to him to make her feel better. She knows that it would do no good.

I don't know where I am at now. I'm different than I was on D-Day. I am different than I was on Thursday. I saw what I was and I hated it. I never want to return to that.

I know what we were. What we turned into, and I hated that too.

I am keeping any decisions on hold for now. I am cautiously optimistic. I know I have to check. Verify.

I also know that in the long run, I am a trusting person. I do not want to have to check emails. To snoop. To get a VAR - though I have looked at buying one. To get a paternity test - looked at buying one as well.

Clearly, this is what I wanted on D-Day. It's what I've wanted all week. For the rest of my life? I don't know. I've changed. I'll always love her.

For some reason, I wasn't mad when she told me. I'm not mad now. I guess, until I find further proof, I believe her. I don't feel like she is lying. There is something there that makes me believe her in a way that I haven't believed her in a while.

I will not live a life where I have to constantly snoop.

I don't feel anger or sadness. I don't know if I have pushed them down and later maybe I will. I slept last night. No Nyquil. I slept on my own. We slept in the same bed, but I could actually sleep without tossing and turning.

I am hopeful, but I am also being cautious. I told her that I can no longer guarantee that I will want her in the end. Right now, we will try and see what happens.

I forgot to add that while we were driving around last night, she kept talking about things we can do in the future. Her whole tone had changed.

I saw earlier in the day that she started to cry. She came over to me and said that it hit her how stupid she had been and that how sorry she was.

Tomorrow is the one week anniversary of D-Day. I have no idea how I am going to feel.

I am going on a float trip today with my brother and a lot of strangers. I am trying to work on myself. Be someone I want to be. I'm hopeful I can get there too.