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And I am left wondering where the fuck she really is. I don’t think she would be stupid enough to meet with him again so soon.

You could always hide a GPS in her car.

I don’t think she is going to give up the you go girls.

That's too bad. By way of her own actions you now have a "You Go Grizzly" group of your own - all of us and we're currently over 55000 members. We have more wisdom and knowledge about infidelity on our collective pinky than her you-go girls can ever learn in their lifetimes.

I am just afraid she will go through the motions. Right now I don’t know if she just doesn't know what to do or is just hoping everything will blow over. But other than a few gestures (I can see her phone, timeline), tears, and empty promises, I don’t see a hell of a lot.

Maybe it take just sitting your WW down and giving it to her straight, no holds barred, as gently but directly as possible. Tell her that now your image of her has been shattered, you now see the real her and she is flawed. Tell her you don't believe she can follow through because of what you think -

She is lazy and immature. She runs from her problems and expects others to fix them for her. I think she has been doing that her how life.

Ask her why she never stepped up in the past and helped you by getting a job while you worked four of them. Ask her "What exactly do you bring to the table in this relationship?" Because it sure wasn't providing you support, relief, and fidelity while being a SAHM. You need not be afraid of having very tough and frank conversations with her out of fear of "losing the marraige" because technically it is already lost. You both are just figuring out if there is anything to salvage. Might as well put it all on the table because there really isn't much else to lose, is there? Maybe she gets "butt-hurt" by your honesty, but this situation calls for her to own her shit in full. Tell her it is time for her to "woman up" and not just tell you she will do what it takes, but show you through many actions to convince you she deserves a chance to keep you in the marraige. She no longer gets to be that fragile little princess there to be "pleased" while you work tirelessly to build her dream castle. Time for her to be a real woman, like the OM's executive wife, who apparently knows how to contribute more to a marraige. Maybe that visual will make her see how whiny and selfish the OM has been in his own marraige as she tries to picture their scenario. Tell her the idea of texting you her whereabouts is a trigger because she did that anyway during her affair so "what's the difference?". She needs to come up with something else to assure you the affair is over. That burden of proof is no longer yours.

And BTW, her giving up that cadre of enabling "you-go-girl" friends are a key requirement of yours for reconciliation. Don't give that one up. You restate it must be done but that she can decide if her friends are more important than you. She can (and should) get better friends that support your marriage.

Hang in strong.

Right now I don’t know if she just doesn't know what to do or is just hoping everything will blow over. But other than a few gestures (I can see her phone, timeline), tears, and empty promises, I don’t see a hell of a lot. I did see that she ordered some books about saving your marriages after infidelity.

I can only tell you what I did in the same situation where they dont know what to do. These confused women. I gave my wife a clear decision. I did not tell her to do anything other than the obvious things that wives must do. Be true. Be faithful. These are things that must simply be in a marriage. These are givens. These are vows taken on wedding days. These were clear lines in the sand you would think right?

I needed her to convince me that she wanted to be with me. I also made no promisses that we would ever be the same. I reminded her that I have never experienced this level of betrayal, so I dont know if I could ever heal. To this day she works hard (like I always have) to make me feel loved. Maybe someday I will 100% believe her.

I remember back, when things were in our first month after dday I was on the phone with her. I had found out the night before that she talked to this asshole yet again. She cried and said it "was complicated". I told her that "Im about to make this very less complicated" and hung up the phone. I had previously drawn my lines in the sand, my boundaries. Which you and I probably never dreamed were necissary right?

I was fair, I did not demand, but did not allow her to walk all over me. But most important, she knew that I was willing to walk out on the mess she created unless she was 125% "on board" with cleaning it up. I think unless you lay out clear boundaries, some people just wont respect you and fuck you over for being weak. We are not weak, we just never thought that this boundary thing was needed. Guess what Griz? You need them. So did I.

Boundaries are not demands. They are truths. Your wife crossed the Rubican. The last thing you can do is act like nothing happened and that all is well. She wont respect you. But IMO I say again you dont need to expose her or shame her. Give her the opportunity to show you. You can strong arm her to her feet. But what do you have then? Probably nothing that you would ever respect.

I did see that she ordered some books about saving your marriages after infidelity. And we are all going to therapy individually and as a couple (all of which she set up). So actually maybe I am not giving her enough credit. Maybe she is trying and I am too mad to really notice or care.

Yep, my wife ordered three books a day after I found out. I read them cover to cover. My wife, who could read a dictionary in an hour, spent 15 minutes on them the first few weeks while focusing on damage control and her self image the first few months.

TRANSLATION : STILL FOCUSED ON HER SELF.

It takes time to come out of the fog. And when they do, some of them get really depressed with the damage they have done. So now you get to deal with their depression AND yours. You will want to reach out to her, but other times you will want her to feel punished. I think its normal but it doesnt make you feel better. You see the woman that you love falling down. Right next to you.

Getting back up together is a positive thing that you could do with her as a couple. But only if she ever falls down. Let her fall.

No. I don’t want to go down the road of tracking devices and GPS. First that will only tell me where her car, or phone, or jacket, or whatever is. Not her and who she is with. More importantly, I am just a regular person. I can’t live a paranoid life. It is not worth it to me. I can either trust in which case we have a chance, or I can’t in which case I will leave her.

Jduff - you are absolutely right. And you have no idea how much confidence and support the people on here have given me. I honestly don’t know what I would have done without the comments, kind words, and support. Especially in those first critical days. This site has been absolutely invaluable to me. I have made a commitment that I will repay these kindnesses to people in need. In my own way.

I think your idea of a frank conversation is right on. My problem is I get very emotional (angry) when I start thinking and talking about it. And then things go downhill. I lose myself. I feel that I want to punish her. I want her to feel bad. But when she does I don’t get any satisfaction from it. I think I need more time to be able to talk and think about this rationally. But you are so right. Trust is dead. And so the marriage is dead no matter what I would like to think. Is there something here that can be revived and is it worth the effort? That is the million dollar question.

And I do think she needs to woman up. She tells me she has applied to 4 jobs and has an interview this week. As if that is some huge step. It is a start and a minimum. She is taking responsibility.

I have told her that if we are going to move forward, we need to make friends in common (who she doesn’t sleep with, incidentally), who support the marriage. I never realized how important that was and dismissed the you go-girls as gum flapping busy bodies. They are actually harmful. I see that now.

“We are not weak, we just never thought this boundary thing was needed.” Wow, TheDarkestTime. Exactly. Who would think you would need to specify to your wife that being faithful, honest, and contributing to a marriage was a requirement?!

You have really been where I am. You keep describing vividly what we are going through. Having to deal with her depression and my own. That is what she expects me to do. She is looking to me to fix things.

We had our first marriage counseling session today. That poor bastard therapist is going to need a stiff drink tonight. I think we surprised ourselves. It was like out of a movie. Crying. Yelling. Interrupting. Accusing. Being defensive. Of course, my princess wife was trying to show the therapist what a good little soldier and victim she is at which point I would give my side of the story.

Example. She said nonchalantly, “Griz took last week off and we spent a lot of time arguing.”

“Took last week off?” Like it was a fucking vacation? ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? I haven't done that in 20 year! I took the week off because I could not function! I could not FUNCTION. I would order a muffin and start crying. I would pick up milk start sobbing in the car. I didn’t sleep for days. I was wrecked. And that is what she does. Downplays the emotions of others and plays the victim herself.

She describes her infidelity as “a series of bad decisions.” An understatement.

We are going to have to do a lot better than the shit show on display in that therapy office. She goes to individual therapy tomorrow and I go again this Saturday. Therapy. I’m in therapy now. It has become a part of my life. Horray.

I have some books coming tomorrow that I hope to read on this horrible topic. I am working on a strategy to get out more and meet people and make human friends. I have had some lovely conversations with strangers.

I do not want to go backward. I thought the connections in my family was all that I needed. I see now that I was very mistaken and am going to make a point of fixing this in my life. It is definitely hard to make real connections with other people, especially men, in this stage of my life. But I am willing to make the effort. I don’t want to be creepy or cloying and just need to allow relationships to develop naturally out of common interests.

Easier said than done. But I hope well worth the effort.

And I am left wondering where the fuck she really is. I don’t think she would be stupid enough to meet with him again so soon. But there is no way to know for sure.

Actually, Grizzly, there IS a way. I wish I had found SI early on rather than nearly 5 months into false R. I didn't post enough to get to 50 posts which opened the "investigative tips' on SI. I knew nothing about VAR's; no one on SI mentioned it in any of the other forums. If I had, I would have used it ASAP. And, I would have learned that xh was still talking to the bimbo, still off and on planning his runaway life, plotting his next action. If I had used a VAR in his vehicle, I would have KNOWN what was REALLY going on in MY LIFE. We were married 34 years. Could he really be that mean and calculating after 34 years and two daughters together ? Well, of course he could and he was. Protect yourself. Get a VAR. Then you don't have to wait for answers; you will have them. You owe this to yourself. You can limp along, wonder, second guess yourself.... or you can learn the truth of YOUR LIFE as it is right now. (((( ))))

I agree on the VAR, it actually helped me in getting some trust back. I know it sounds counter intuitive but if she says where and what she doing and it matches the VAR you start getting some trust back, and yes it can help keep you out of a false R and that would save months of struggle.

Knowledge at this time is a good thing. It takes two to R.

It's not like you have 2-5 years to just waste here.

Don't bury your head in the sand.

She still doesn't get it. But she is trying to slug it off with you, so I take that as a plus, as compared to if she was not willing to try to slug it off with you. So it could be worse, but she still doesn't get it. Many cheaters take a while to get it.

So what else can you do? It's up to you. The VAR, if you use it a week, gives you the inside of her head while she confides in the you-go girls or, who knows, the other man.

But I think you are in a decent spot. You understand where you are mentally and within the marriage. She may or may not ever get it, but you will be OK. Give it time for now, and keep your eyes and ears open.

Until she realizes that she and she alone fucked up this marriage, there is no chance of things improving.

Her telling her family and friends that YOUare the reason she fucked the other guy is her method of trying to shift blame to assuage her own guilt.

I think you should tell her it ends NOW or divorce will be the only outcome.

She and she alone fucked up your marriage and until she owns that reality, there will never be a chance of any meaningful resolution.

It is up to her to put forth the 150% effort to prove she wants to stay married to you. She can begin that with dumping her you go girl friends. They are toxic.

One more thing: Install the VAR. Your wife has already proven she can't be trusted.

She describes her infidelity as “a series of bad decisions.” An understatement.

Yes, an understatement.

A "series of bad decisions" sounds like a whore that had no options, hooked on crack that had to blow men in the alley for money.

Sadly, our wives had money, had options, and were not hooked on crack. The rest they did. Meaning our wives sucked some cock for no money or drugs. Just did it for attention. Maybe thats a drug. I dont know. But this is something you need to figure out.

[This message edited by TheDarkestTime at 2:49 AM, November 2nd (Wednesday)]

Yep, my wife ordered three books a day after I found out. I read them cover to cover. My wife, who could read a dictionary in an hour, spent 15 minutes on them the first few weeks while focusing on damage control and her self image the first few months.

I had to smirk after reading this. EXACTLY the same---speed reader of a wife, three books ordered, mayyyyybe one of them was eventually read....I don't know for sure. Once I noticed the lack of effort being put into these readings, I never made mention of it. I simply accepted the FACT that it must not be important to her.

It's all about the actions.

Ok guys. I might be ready to take the VAR step. I never thought it would come to this but you've all made valid and read points. So how does it work? Do I get a bunch of them and put them everywhere? How often do I check them? Suggestions?

I personally would get two, put one in the car and hold onto one yourself. Swap it out every night and listen once a day every night. Cheaters are looking for you to look at the phone, the emails, the texts, the chat apps, and they can get around that, but they are not thinking there is a recorder in their car.

Your wife, if she is in contact with other man, will be talking with him in the car. Does she still take your son to the car? And then afterwards she would see other man? So that would be the time of the day when she would talk with him, or her you-go girls.

Put one in her car, then at night you take it out and put another one in, you listen to the one you took out and then the next day you do it again. Do this only for one week, if you hear nothing, let it go. If you hear things you can't figure out, then maybe go another week. If you hear things that she is cheating or leaving you or etc., sooner then a week, then no need to keep it there any longer. But usually if they are still in contact will do it every single day, maybe they wouldn't on vacation, if sick, etc., but generally every single day. So you wouldn't need to do it very long.

I am taking your advice. I just ordered two VARs and will do as you suggest. LifeisBroken, you are very correct. I need to know whats going on in MY life as you put it. She could very easily be scheming and plotting. I hate to think she would be, but I have been completely duped by her for the past 9 months. I need evidence for my own peace of mind. Her words and promises are meaningless.

If she has genuine remorse and wants to make amends and change her ways, we might have a chance. Otherwise there is not a snowballs chance in hell that this is going to work.

Can I ask you guys what you do with the anger that comes to you? When I think about her massaging that SOB when my back and arms were in spasm from working. When I think of her joyously driving around the most beautiful part of our areas with him while I was at work. All the lies, etc... I just get so enraged.

Its not even the sex that bothers me so much. Its the underhandedness, the lying, her ability to lead a double life. I am angry at myself for allowing her to have all that leisure time. And for not noticing what the hell was going on even when there were clues (secretive texting, late night runs for milk, eggs,)

When I think of all of this stuff how can I POSSIBLY be kind and civil to her? The thought of her ever being happy again seems like a horrible injustice. I don't want her to be happy. I want her to be miserable and to suffer like I am. But if that is the case, how the hell can we ever have a happy married life? How can a husband wish unhappiness on his wife?

This whole situation is such a mind fuck. My head spins in confusion. And the rollercoaster. I've always hated rollercoasters. Even when I was a little kid. But I sure as hell am on one now. And there is no getting off.

And what do you guys do to prevent this situation from becoming your whole identity? The emotions and situation are all encompassing so I think its very easy to do. If you're always surrounded by water, you're probably a fish. If you're whole life is surrounded with uncertainty, spy gadgets, snooping, lies, deceit, you're probably a BS (or at least in a very shitty marriage).

I don't want my identity to be a "betrayed spouse". I don't want to feel like a victim.

And another concern is that people get in habits very quickly. At least I do. My wife and I fight a lot now. Or we don't talk and avoid each other. That is an easy habit to get into. What if that becomes a habit and our marriage goes that way? There would not be the slightest hope of R if that was the case.

How the hell can I be nice and kind to her which I probably need to do if there is a shot at R?

I don't even know what the hell I am asking.

With the anger - I got to vent at fWW some, but not too much. I didn't go into 'punish' her mode. As my fWW has been extremely supportive, she absorbed the anger fairly well and she explained it helped her understand how hurt I am.

But I did destroy our storage room one day early on and it felt pretty good, and I don't normally act out that way. The counseling stuff has helped a bunch. My IC - he was cheated on, so he is a really good audience for venting my anger.

And strange as it sounds - 'typing' out my frustrations here at SI from time to time helps too.

But there are still some tough days. I'm also fairly certain if I ever see the AP, I'm doing some jail time...

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 9:51 AM, November 2nd (Wednesday)]

I had to laugh at this old wounds. I did something very similar to what you did. Something completely out of character for me. I am not a violent or destructive person AT ALL. But...

My wife hates folding laundry.

So one day when she was not home, I threw all of her clothes all over the place. And I made a mess of her office. I was careful not to break anything or do any real damage. I just made a huge mess. Mostly of her clothes so she would have to refold everything.

It was childish, but very therapeutic in the short term.

I couldn't believe I stooped to that level.

I think as a human going through this shit you have to lose control once in a while. Otherwise things just build up inside you end up with pancreatic cancer.

The typing does help as well. I do agree with that.

Im going to talk to my IC about what to do with the rage and how I can direct it somewhere constructive and not want to make my wife suffer either by fighting to my passive aggressive avoidance.

Thanks for the comments.

Can I ask you guys what you do with the anger that comes to you?

I think it is important to recognize a couple things...

- Anger, in itself, is normal. Anger is the body's way of saying "Something is really wrong here!" And you have plenty of "wrong" to be upset about. So give yourself permission to be angry and don't try to avoid it, stuff it, etc. Experiencing it, letting it out and moving through it is part of your own path towards healing.

- What you do with your anger is still a choice and within your control, so be wise.

With that in mind, my suggestions are:

1. Find ways to let it out that are effective for you and are constructive/"safe". For me that meant things like going to the gym, running, martial arts, screaming in the car, journaling, writing a venomous letter that I could share in IC or burn/rip up, etc.

2. Recognize the rage towards your wife and the OM is justified. See that the thoughts of harm/injury are just an extension of that. But also keep those in the right place. Venting them here can be helpful. Talking with an IC may also be productive. Uncoupling the anger from the action is a healthy way to move forward. It allows you to touch upon the deep pain and injustice that you are experiencing and then lets you express and release it.

3. While it is important that your wife sees some of what she has done to you, it is equally important to stay in control. It is OK to step away from a conversation if you feel things spiraling out of control. It may also be prudent to choose your methods of communication carefully for a while (e.g. writing things out may be better than trying to speak them).

When I think of all of this stuff how can I POSSIBLY be kind and civil to her?

If your wounds were physical ones, you'd be in ICU right now, in a ton of pain and would likely be groaning and moaning. Trying to put on a happy face or being pleasant just isn't where you are at, so being "kind" seems like quite a stretch. Being civil seems like a good target, but there needs to be some level of being "real" there too as you have injuries that need to be dealt with.

Part of her "job", if she is going to be a candidate for reconciliation, is to own responsibility for what she did and be truly remorseful for how her actions cause you massive injury. She put you in ICU, she needs to accept that you are going to be angry about that fact all while she stands by your side to help you in your healing. "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" is a great book that could help both of you put a framework around what she should be doing to help you right now.

what do you guys do to prevent this situation from becoming your whole identity?

You heal.

The reality is that you ARE in "ICU" right now. After a while, you'll move to a regular hospital bed. Then you'll be released, but will have extensive physical therapy to go to regularly. After that is done, there will be more work and time spent on fine tuning things. It takes a ton of time and effort.

For right now, it seems like it is your identity because it occupies practically every moment. But that changes given time. You will heal and the open wound will eventually become a scar. While the scar will always be there, it will eventually take its place as something that happened in your past that doesn't define you and doesn't determine your future.

That likely sounds incredibly far off to you. So, for now, focus on the moment, the hour and the day. You have pain that demands your attention and getting through it minute by minute is your task at hand. Just know that you aren't alone as you struggle and that you will heal from this.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 10:17 AM, November 2nd (Wednesday)]