SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

@RIOActually, rape is a crime of power and control. It doesn't necessarily include violence. I don't know why you keep hanging onto that falsehood.

Hit wikipedia under "violent crime". Rape/sexual assault is the first one listed in the stats, at 1.3/1000 people (likelihood of being a rape victim in any year) for the NCVS category, or .3/1000 people for "forcible rape" in the UCR cateory.

It's a violent crime not because I say it is, it's because that's how it's classified.

I was blackout drunk in my own home at 16 years old. 2 of my guy friends decided to have sex me one right after the other. I was in and out of consciousness and yes I consider it rape!

It is rape by the current standard, clearly. And by that standard, I was also raped many times as a young man. If this is the standard we're using (which is the law currently) then I think the male/female incidence of rape is likely much more equal than what you see in the general stats (IIRC, 1 in ~70 men are raped; I cannot believe that stat is blackout drunk/too impaired to consent is included in that number. On the other hand, by that standard, I can believe that 1-3 women are raped. In fact, I'd argue it's probably higher for both men and women, approaching 100% for those who drink heavily).

The problem with this standard is the slippery slope that it sets up. All kinds of thought experiments become difficult when you examine this closely. When I met my wife, probably our 4th or 5th time we met up, I was at a friends house drinking all day. She came to hang out and then take me home because I knew I couldn't drive. I remember her getting there, I vaguely remember getting in the car with her and nothing after we got back to my house. We slept together that night; I only know that because I found the condom wrapper the next day. I was way beyond the ability to consent, I'm pretty sure she knew it (or had reason to know it). It was clearly a date rape, there's no question, I could not consent; I don't remember consenting and I don't remember the encounter. Now, of course, I wasn't upset about it in the morning, I laughed it off and apologized in case I was aggressive (and vowed to stop drinking so much) but that cannot be the standard. Just because I was OK with it in the morning a crime didn't occur? No, that's not how it works, it's a crime or it's not. And this was a crime, she was stone sober, I was drunk as a skunk. But where do we draw that line?

Loukas

And where does the blame belong, Frankie? Because all I’ve picked up so far is - men.

Growing up as a boy, I never once watched a commercial and thought to myself “well let’s go rape some sexual objects now!”

As a man I never bought anything because I thought the woman of my dreams would magically fall in my lap.

Either way, I have more respect for the children in my life then to simply presume any intentions of wrong doing before they can even understand the actions you wish to condemn upon them. I wouldn’t presume a girl will become a woman interested in sexual assualting anyone, nor would I presume the same upon a boy. However both genders are taught to be respectful to all, because that is the right thing to do. At least in my understanding of the golden rule.

Shaming boys about their sexuality to serve your purpose can only result in poor behavioural habits. At a time when female sexuality is being promoted to battle shaming, why would you do any less with males? That is condescending.

So you’re going to rell me that as a young man/teen that you never fantasized about wonder woman or charlies angels or any other beautiful woman in the privacy of your own room? You weren’t thinking abour how they were champions of justice, naw. You weren’t thinking of how they held professional employment so they mist be super intelligent. Nope. Skimpy outfits, nipples, etc.

Women and girls have been shamed forever about their sexuality! You are familiar with the double standards that apply to men and women when it comes to sex, yes?

Women in the media, women in general, are not there to be sexy for anyone...men or women. If they want to be sexy, they can, as long as they aren’t hurting anyone and that includes themselves.

And I don’t think my statement was shaming boys sexuality. It was clearly delineating that commercial media is an illusion and that women are more than what is being presented to them. Its ok that they can appreciate beauty, absolutely. But there’s so much more to women than that.

And yeah, my experiences have all been with men. So thats what i know. In no way am I discounting the abuse women do to others. None. Its just as bad.

But the majority of SA is perpetrated by men. You know it too.

Hopefulmother

Those are good solutions to teach girls and boys. Girls need a lot of teaching too. The things I have seen some 3rd graders wear. I am sorry, if a girl doesn't want a boy to view them as a sexual object-then they shouldn't dress like one. I believe in modesty. I am not talking Mennonite, but please... Some girls dress promiscuously and I am a woman. I know why they do it. Girls need to be taught that societies view isn't right either. Some of the shorts and bathing suits out there on the racks right now for 8year old girls is just disgusting. Yet, they wouldn't sell them if the girls didn't want to wear them.

My husband's OW came on to him. Girls need to be taught how to behave just as much as boys do. That is why this isn't a feminist issue. It is a societal one.

The clothes are not the problem. Its that people are sexualizing children wearing these clothes thats the problem.

If adults see an 8 year old wearing a bathing suit as a sexual being, that is certainly NOT on that 8 year old. Thats on the adult 100%.

That’s the beauty of being an adult: we know right from wrong. And hopefully there’s some impulse control as well in that adult.

Women can be just as suppressing and sexualizing as men can. Clothes are clothes. An outfit does not mean another person has the right to determine that those clothes have removed the bodily autonomy of that person.

Who gives a flying fig what someone wants to wear? Who determines what is acceptable and what isn’t? Its hot as balls here this summer. I may have worn undergarments 6x? I don’t care what other think of my 3 smartie high nipples...no one pays my mortgage, no one feeds my cats, no one answers my emails for me BUT me.

What others think of what im wearing is THEIR problem. Im not asking for comments from anyone about my clothing or my nipples, because it’s not their business or any of their concern.

And yeah, WH’s AP did the same, and he was an idiot and fell for it.

And that’s one reason I’m so bloody pissed at her. Because shes the complete opposite of women lifting women.

So I agree that girs need to be taught the same as boys.

@RIO, Wikipedia? For all I know you may have been the one who edited that entry and added whatever you wanted RIO. *shrug*

I do know it is classified as a "violent crime", but you know and I know exactly how you use the term. You had to join SI to make sure you could add what you feel "rape" is. Your first post was about rape. That it has to include violence for you to consider it rape. And, you are just wrong.

ETA: And, yes, your wife raped you and it is a crime. No slippery slope there.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 1:28 PM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

The clothes are not the problem. Its that people are sexualizing children wearing these clothes thats the problem.

If adults see an 8 year old wearing a bathing suit as a sexual being, that is certainly NOT on that 8 year old. Thats on the adult 100%.

This 100%

I do know it is classified as a "violent crime", but you know and I know exactly how you use the term. You had to join SI to make sure you could add what you feel "rape" is. Your first post was about rape. That it has to include violence for you to consider it rape. And, you are just wrong.

It was? I certainly don't remember that, but, at the same time, I can't say you're wrong. However, SMS, as you know, I have a lot of posts here, most of them having absolutely nothing to do with rape. It's completely disingenuous to say that I "had to join SI" to tell everyone what rape is.

@RIO, Wikipedia? For all I know you may have been the one who edited that entry and added whatever you wanted RIO. *shrug*

I don't know how else to put this, cite your own sources then. I didn't edit Wikipedia, I didn't publish the Time article and I'm not trying to generate statistics that support my argument. The statistics DO support my argument, you can argue that they are falsified, you can argue they are bad sources and present your own, but you cannot use conjecture to make a compelling argument that rape is exceedingly common, it's not. At least not the rape that is reported and the police will cite as a victim report. I've already conceded that if you include drunken sex, yes, I believe the 1 in 3 or 1 in 5 numbers. Where we differ is that I don't think my girlfriend picking me up, taking me home after I had too much to drink and then having sex with me is rape. And on this point, we can just agree to disagree; but the thought of me reporting that incident as rape and my girlfriend spending 20 years in prison because she couldn't discern I was blacked out is ludicrous to me and it makes every nearly every young adult into a rape victim (male and female), at least those who choose to drink. IMHO, that is a disservice to people who experienced a completely different crime. And yes, for the record, I do think it's a ridiculous standard, experts cannot tell you, with the best equipment possible, if someone is blackout drunk or not. I've been around people who seemed "fine" (drunk, but not out of control) who remembered nothing the next morning. But they were interacting and behaving normally. And no, I don't have a bone to pick here, I went to college and did my drinking before all this started, it was a "OMG, did you see who he/she went home with last night.. Must have had too much to drink" discussion, not an arrest, trial and a he/she said that can land someone with a felony and a criminal record. It makes me mad because it feels like the same crap I got when I first started talking about my W's A to therapists, "well, RIO, it's really your fault". No, it's not, she chose to cheat, she had a million different options. And anyone who drinks until they blackout, well, sometimes you do really stupid stuff that's completely out of character in a blackout. I know I do, and I didn't like who I was, so I stopped doing it. But there has to be some personal responsibility here. And NO, I am not talking about ANY kind of forecable rape, not even a little bit. But what you said:

ETA: And, yes, your wife raped you and it is a crime. No slippery slope there.

How can that statement make sense to you? So, let's say we both decide "let's open a few bottles of wine tonight". And we both wind up drinking too much. Do we rape each other? I mean, by this standard, how many people aren't victims or perpetrators of rape?

Go to page three of this forum, RIO, and then look for the thread with the topic of Woman's perspective on on demand sex started by Catch 44. Then go to page 6 of that thread. That was your very first post on SI.

If you can't go to page three, let me know, and I'll bump it for you.

Not disingenuous at all.

I am not going to debate consent with you either, RIO.

Go to page three of this forum, RIO, and then look for the thread with the topic of Woman's perspective on on demand sex started by Catch 44. Then go to page 6 of that thread. That was your very first post on SI.

You are correct, I did not remember that.

I am not going to debate consent with you either, RIO.

Fair enough.

Hiding behind numbers does nothing. Throwing numbers does nothing.

Wait...it does. It invalidates it. It minimizes it. It takes the focus off of it and says ‘its not that bad if this what’s reported’.

And yeah, my experiences have all been with men. So thats what i know. In no way am I discounting the abuse women do to others. None. Its just as bad.

But the majority of SA is perpetrated by men. You know it too.

As a victim and survivor of sexual abuse myself, I can speak to this. You are invalidating and minimizing the abuse that I went through simply by saying that a majority is perpetrated by men, and implying that it's a problem to be solved by teaching men not to rape.

Is it acceptable to just teach SOME potential perpetrators that what they might do is wrong? Because you can throw out numbers (majority) all you want, but knowing that men are more likely to commit these crimes and educating them wouldn't have helped me.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 2:50 PM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

Hxz700

As a victim and survivor of sexual abuse myself, I can speak to this. You are invalidating and minimizing the abuse that I went through simply by saying that a majority is perpetrated by men, and implying that it's a problem to be solved by teaching men not to rape.

Is it acceptable to just teach SOME potential perpetrators that what they might do is wrong? Because you can thrown out numbers (majority) all you want, but knowing that men are more likely to commit these crimes and educating them wouldn't have helped me.

I don’t believe I invalidated or minimized your experience . I have said several times that women abusing others is just as disgusting.

And that is where I am of the opinion that feminism is a benefit to society.

Women lifting women is a powerful thing. Women teaching women that they are accountable for their actions and their choices have consequences is a powerful thing.

Women have been told to sit down and shut up. Children have been told to sit down and shut up.

Women putting a spotlight on abuse is powerful and dangerous as hell. And when a woman does this, either on behalf of themselves or children or other women, they need a tribe to keep them safe and to keep the perpetrator away from those they have abused and hurt. They have put themselves in the line of fire now. That’s how abusers work.

Being told to shut up and ignore the problem and pretend it doesn’t happen is a result of generations of families training each other in this manner, by abuse. It doesn’t make it right.

You’ve seen the consequences of being dismissed and invalidated. You were undoubtedly told to shut up and don’t rock the boat. Your well being was less important than everyone else’s. If the truth came out, everyone else, not just your abuser, would have to deal with the fallout. It was important to protect your abuser because telling the truth was too much work for them. They had too much to lose.

And for that im sorry you had no brave people in your family.

Ask me how I know...

I had a BF that used to beat the shit out of me. (Not looking for sympathy this is BG) and only my girlfriends would step in when he would get violent. Eventually he isolated me from them.

It was the women that supported me. The men casually called him out, ‘hey man, lets have a beer’ Not ‘dude, you dont hit people’.

Women need to lift women. The more support we give each other, the more we can change the cycles of abuse, both familial and on the street.

You are minimizing it though, because it isn't your experience. So much effort has been spent on focusing on this idea of one side against the other, and you don't see it. Everybody sucks, men and women, just in different ways.

You see women supporting you because of your abusive boyfriend. I see my mom ignoring my brother's calls for help. You see rape. I see my XWW accusing me wrongly of rape, then when challenged, backing out of it by telling the investigator that she "felt raped". You say "Women putting a spotlight on abuse is powerful and dangerous as hell" and I say that men putting a spotlight on abuse are laughed at or dismissed.

I have been consistently let down and abused by women for most of my life. The idea that women are going to fix society by fixing men is absurdist nonsense to me. I don't blame all women for my experiences because I am not a fucking idiot.

Only by fixing all sides can we truly lift society up.

I have thought hard about my thoughts on this thread. I will do my best to hit some key points.

If one disagrees with your view, you are not invalidated unless you allow it. One has the right to their feelings. But it is always good to ask if you could be mistaken based on new knowledge. That applies to all of us.

Through the lens of a 50+ year old man, it does appear that all men are being blamed for the actions of some. That is just my feeling, and it may not be what the OP or others have meant in their posts, but it looks like that through my lens. The OP's husband appears to be very different than the men I know. These men do not to my knowledge, have a double standard for their wife and their daughters. In addition, as the father of two boys, (probably being oversensitive) the statement that one of my two daughters will be the victim of an SA implies that one of my son's will be the perpetrator of a SA. I recognize that was not stated at all, but it felt implied, through my lens.

The other point that is discounted in much of this discussion is the role of women in this education of sons. I can teach my sons how to be a gentleman, but if my sons saw how my fWW flirted with other men and allowed them to objectify her to the point of stripping or giving BJs, then my work would be in vain, and they may look at women as sex objects through the modeling of their mother. (luckily this was not done in our presence)

My point is not simple or straight forward. No problem as big as this has a simple solution. No problem as big as SA has a single victim or perpetrator. One cannot say that men are the problem and one cannot say that women bear no responsibility for their role. If you want an easy answer, there isn't one. If you want a scapegoat, you can make one up, but it will be an over-generalization and not accurate.

Xhd700

You are minimizing it though, because it isn't your experience. So much effort has been spent on focusing on this idea of one side against the other, and you don't see it. Everybody sucks, men and women, just in different ways.

You see women supporting you because of your abusive boyfriend. I see my mom ignoring my brother's calls for help. You see rape. I see my XWW accusing me wrongly of rape, then when challenged, backing out of it by telling the investigator that she "felt raped". You say "Women putting a spotlight on abuse is powerful and dangerous as hell" and I say that men putting a spotlight on abuse are laughed at or dismissed.

I have been consistently let down and abused by women for most of my life. The idea that women are going to fix society by fixing men is absurdist nonsense to me. I don't blame all women for my experiences because I am not a fucking idiot.

Only by fixing all sides can we truly lift society up.

I did not intend to minimize your experience.

You have gone through very difficult experiences, unfairly.

My main focus was a discussion on feminism. How certain rules apply for some but not for others.

My discussion was derailed into other facets of a huge issue, such as yours. As I stated in another post, these issues are just as important as the one I initiated.

That being said, what I’ve said I stand by. The issue I brought up is no less important than yours. Nor is your issue no less important than mine.

Having women fixing this isn't about fixing men. I don’t wver believe I said that, and I’m not sure how it was inferred either. It’s about women supporting women. Its about men supporting women. Its about both changing the current social constructs nstruct one word and one action at a time.

Neither of us can go back and use our voices against oht abusers. But both of us can now and we should now.

Woundedbear,

You and I are close in age.

I’m actually getting fatigued attempting to keep my initial post on track.

I’m sorry your wife was so disrespectful to you. But sexual coercion and emasculation are not the same thing. Both are disrespectful however. Of that we can surly agree.

I’m just replying to Frankie’s last post to me.

This is going to piss you off, because no, I didn’t watch TV then fantasize about the women I seen on it in the privacy of my room. Actually I’d say the fantasizing I did do was over my girlfriends growing up. In my teens years spent much more of my time in their rooms doing what teenage boys and girls do...figure life out and very little fantasizing. But I’ll give you this, I did have a poster of Jenny McCarthy on my wall. Yup, I definitely found her attractive. No I didn’t put a whole lot of thought into her brains, didn’t give a fuck. She was wearing underwear and blew it up to put on a poster to sell. I was one of those purchasers. Still didn’t fantasize about her. I was too busy living life, you know, biking, dirt biking, fishing, fixing and making shit, running around with my bros doing who knows what and yes, even chasing girls when they weren’t chasing me! But yeah, nipples, I could see Jenny’s nips through her white lace bra...the shame! I will say this though, my girlfriends were objectifying the hell out of a lot of dudes consider all the posters on their walls! I never even seen paint in one of their rooms.

As for the rest of your post, I’m truly not interested in the circular debate. I assure you I have spent a lot of time on this topic (much more than I’d even like to admit) to feel as though I bring a fair and approachable stance inside individual cases. I have no desire to blame all men for the shortcomings of some, nor will I hold all women down because some suck (in my life, a lot suck). I’ll just leave you with this, you argument will fall on deaf ears as long as you continue to blame innocent people. So lump away, just please don’t be surprised when you receive pushback.

Wow, just wow. Holy cr@$... I can't even.

All my life and nothing has changed. Wow.

Frankiesbeads - My father was like this. He wanted better for me than someone like him. I wish he had actually respected women as individual human beings.

[This message edited by KatyaCA at 6:45 PM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

Y'all going to open doors for us? No but then my husband never has for me either.

Pull our chairs out when we go to sit down?No but then my husband never has for me either.

Pick up the check? Yes and I have.

Kill the spiders? Roaches? I do. I am also the only one in the house that will handle snakes and I am the only women in the house.

Check out the strange noise in the middle of the night? Yes and I have.

Y'all going to move the heavy couches/furniture until the room is just right? Yes, we do that together.

So, what? I wanted equal. We are equal at home on all the above and yet in our respective professional office environments we are not treated equally. When I wanted more he did everything in his power to talk me out of it, including telling me he would not support me going back to school, we couldn't afford it, why would I go back when we need to put the kids through college, would I take their college dreams away? Cue crisis and infidelity. I think he felt threatened by it. Not that he will ever admit it.

[This message edited by KatyaCA at 6:51 PM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

The clothes are not the problem. Its that people are sexualizing children wearing these clothes thats the problem.

I disagree. It is both. Just look at the child pageants where girls are dressed up to look like teens. Jon Bennet comes to mind. A child dressed to look like an adult and people complain that she is looked at as a sexual object by pedoes. What did they expect was going to happen. Why push it. I am a teacher. I here the conversations these young girls have about their clothing when their parents aren't around within their clique of girls. They dress to look sexy and mature to get the boys attention and to be wanted. No, not just attractive but sexy. Society has taught them what that is and looks like and they mimic it without even understanding what that sexuality/sensuality is. Clothing is a problem. Not just the minds of people sexualizing children. I can't control what people think. I can control how my child dresses in a fashion appropriate for her age. I don't even remember what age it hit me when I realized you dress a certain way to be attractive to men when I was a young teen. No it isn't just the people looking. It is the message being sent. There is already a societal message sent with certain style of dress that made its mark with adults long before the children started wearing them as recognized as racy or sexy. We all have seen that progression in any Halloween costume shop through the last 10years.

Maybe I am just getting confused.

It is as if people are saying a woman should be able to dress sensual and sexy and it is wrong for a man to find her desirable. How dare he. Then why dress that way? The usual reply given is because it makes her feel good about herself. Well, why? Why does it make her feel good to look sexy? Because, she feels comfortable in her body and sexuality. There it goes again. For the sexual appeal. To look desirable and get an ego kibble that she is desirable. It isn't just about dressing and liking the style or to be comfortable. I think it is because they like the attention and desirability that goes with it. It isn't just men attaching the look to sex, it is women too. It is like a male peacock saying Hey, don't look at how beautiful I am while my tail feathers are raised. It absurd to get angry that you get attention if you choose to dress like that. I am not saying that you are asking to be harassed. I am saying do what you can to control what you can control because this is a fallen world and it will never change as long as men and women have sick needs.

What you do in your own home is no problem of mine.

Saying that men should not sexualize women but then say that clothing that sexualizes women is acceptable is hypocrisy. Pick one view or the other.

PS: girls’ clothing is absolutely too sexualized. Try finding girls’ shorts that even reach mid-thigh.

PlanC:Yes. This ^^^. I actually wrote a letter to Walmart three years ago about the short selection for young girls. For a 6 year old!. They were all mid (mid was not mid thigh) or bikini cut. It said that on the label! There is a reason for fingertip dress codes. Thank you. I don't mean to be insulting to anyone that dresses like that. I just don't see the need or reason. I actually grew up Mennonite/Southern Baptist. I dress like any other soccer mom. I am just saying. I live my life as close as I can to conduct myself within "Fruits of the Spirit". I prefer to be modest outside. Sexual is reserved for the home with my husband. I know that choosing that played into my husband's affair. I know his OW teased, flirted, and dressed sexual on purpose. He liked that. He felt it was carefree. He wouldn't like that if I behaved that way or dressed that way to get other men's attention. He doesn't tell me how to dress. When I see a woman dressed in super short skirt and heels like a Kardashian, I have asked him would you like me to dress that way and have the attention of other men. Answer, no.

[This message edited by hopefulmother at 11:47 PM, August 15th (Wednesday)]