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Good for you Sammi

Get rest, eat and recharge as much as you can. You must feel bone weary.

Please stay on your current path. If he wants to be alpha and live the red pill life - he can as a single man. Stick to the 180 and divorce direction. He needs a 2x4 of reality.

Remember, This is not your fault. It has everything to do with him. It is his personal crisis, not yours. You are, sadly, impacted but you do have choices and control of the impact.

Big hugs. You rock!

As far as red pill philosophy goes, I think my husband did marry up. I am an attorney who paid for all of his business school. He is now a successful accountant and had no prospects when I met him. I quit my job when I had kids and he became the breadwinner, which is what we both wanted. I raise the kids and take care of everything in the domestic sphere including having some small income producing side gigs. He always had delicious meals and we had great family memories. I take care of myself and am healthy and in great shape. We were a great team together until his midlife crisis and this insidious red pill nonsense. I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone. If we do get a divorce, he owes me a lot and rightfully so. But for my choices and my money, he would be no where. There is no such thing as alpha/beta males, hypergamy, etc. There is no flawed “female” AWALT brain that is hopelessly emotion driven. We are all individuals on this planet making our own choices that we have to live with. This philosophy of looking at males and females as enemies on a DNA level is poison. I feel this ideology takes hold of vulnerable, unhappy, men in midlife crisis (or tells young incels that women and the matriarchy are responsible for their lack of sexual partners) and drives them to blame the wrong things (women and marriage) for their shortcomings. My emotions are running high and I have nothing but hatred for this red pill cultish excrement because my marriage is about to end and it is THIS drivel my husband is suddenly spouting as the reasons.

I don’t think I completely deprogrammed him and it was extremely emotionally taxing to get the few concessions/admissions from him I did get. I’m starting to wonder if HE is now fatally flawed and not worth the effort I’m putting in to save us. The marriage may always be tainted because of the things this philosophy has driven him to say to me. I don’t know if we can come back from this and it is heartbreakingly, soul smashingly painful. We are going to do individual counseling, he won’t do marriage counseling. I am not optimistic but am willing to try everything. Oddly, he seems to be on a good mood and is talking about all kinds of plans for the future, our future. Total opposite of my current state of mind. I feel completely dead inside.

Good for you, sami. He got his wake up call since you wouldn't fall in line. IC is more important than MC at this time, at least for him.

(((Sami)))

Hugs to you. It’s a shit sandwich that’s been handed you by your WH who did not know how to deal with his own demons, especially getting older. If not this Red Pill silliness, it would have been some other irrelevant theories to act as bullshit rationalizations for whatever he was dealing with.

Can he pull out of this. Yes. If he wants to. He really needs to work at his IC and open up with his vulnerabilities and fears. But that doesn’t mean the M is salvageable. He has hurt you deeply. How can you be sure he won’t fall down the wacko rabbit hole again? You know him. Is all of this really out of character for our mild mannered accountant? And I am also wondering if this whole thing doesn’t arise out of some feelings deep down that he didn’t make it on his own. Does he resent you because he needed your help to get thru business school?

There is a lot to unpack here. I wish you well.

>>>> I feel this ideology takes hold of vulnerable, unhappy, men in midlife crisis (or tells young incels that women and the matriarchy are responsible for their lack of sexual partners) and drives them to blame the wrong things (women and marriage) for their shortcomings.<<<<

Yes. And let us not forget that something can take hold of a vulnerable, unhappy woman in a midlife crises which tells her that men and the patriarchy are responsible for her unhappiness and this can drive a woman to blame the wrong things (men, marriage, children) for their own shortcomings.

The human mind is capable of dredging up all kinds of fascinating rubbish to justify what it wants. It's what we do.

It might be easy and convenient to blame misogynist philosophy (or perhaps the patriarchy) for your husband screwing around. I suspect that in the fullness of time, it will become clear that his screwing around came first and the misogynist philosophy trotted along behind.

Misogynist (or misandrist) philosophy is a smoke screen. It is a dodge. A red herring. A cover. A false front. A distraction. Diversion. It is part of the web of lies that unfaithful spouses tell themselves and/or their betrayed spouses. Very little is gained by trying to make sense out of that sort of nonsense.

Sammi,

I have been reading your journey here. And I'm glad you both have decided to go to IC. Your husband's ML crisis is going to be a major hurdle for him.its going to take some time. He was in a low place when he stumbled onto the red pill ideas and it resonated with him. He failed to look inward at himself but rather outward to blame something else. Why, because it couldn't be something that was lacking in him. He fell for their BS. You got the bare the brunt of that BS.

You have shown him what true strength is by standing up for yourself and your values by asking him for D. His world shattered before his eyes. His new views on life that seemed so promising just came crashing down around him. MC wont do you guys any good til he addresses his issues and comes to a, terms with what he did, and b, how will he try to become a better person afterwards known what he put you through.

IMO, you should still look into D. See some lawyers and learn all your rights,responsibilities, obligations, and expectations if D is the path you choose to take. This just might be a dealbreaker for you.

Have you found out if he has cheated on you over his new red pill life style? That would probably put the final nail in his coffin IMO.

Hope you have detached from him using the 180 method. Look after yourself. You and your kids are your priority now. He has to earn his way back into your good graces. Let him do everything that he needs to survive himself. Let him see what life will be like without having you there as his partner in life. I'm sure he will not like it. By showing him your strength and resolve, with his IC, hopefully he will come to his senses and start doing the right things to begin to attempt to heal the wounds he has caused you. Then, you set the terms of MC. If he wants the marriage, he will go with you. If not, he will get to enjoy being that middle bachelor seeing his children half the time.

Sending you strength, you have endured much in a short time and you will come out of this a much stronger person.

I honestly do not think he has cheated yet. He wants to very badly but he always comes home right after work and he has no “unaccounted for” hours, so to speak. I know that is not a guarantee.

The marriage may always be tainted because of the things this philosophy has driven him to say to me. I don’t know if we can come back from this and it is heartbreakingly, soul smashingly painful. We are going to do individual counseling, he won’t do marriage counseling. I am not optimistic but am willing to try everything. Oddly, he seems to be on a good mood and is talking about all kinds of plans for the future, our future. Total opposite of my current state of mind. I feel completely dead inside.

What was the driving force for him to adopt this programming? What's the inner monologue that attracted him to it? I'm thinking it's more of a rationalization than a philosophy, and if so... what's he papering over? Is it simply a midlife crisis?.. or is he giving himself permission because of things he might have already done? Is he watching a lot of porn? Is he communicating with like-minded individuals online or in real life? Is he already in an affair?

In terms of whether or not he's willing to do marriage counseling.. that should be your decision, not his. Typically, we recommend that people do IC first when there's infidelity in play because the MC is there to treat the marriage, and marriages don't cheat, people do. Sometimes, the MC can inadvertently make things worse by looking for compromises. But right now, if that's something you want to do, he's in no position to refuse you.

People can and do come back from situations this bad and worse. I've been in R for over 4 years with a WH who went on a Craigslist binge featuring multiple APs and varying degrees of emotional attachment for the better part of a year. I saw his emails, photos, even videos. The things he said and did were breathtakingly painful, deeply traumatizing. And yet, here we are, still together after more than 35 years. So much of healing depends on whether the WS is willing to repair the flaws in his character which allowed the rationalizations. They've got to be dedicated to change and repair, willing to do whatever is necessary to achieve it.

Right now, it's a good time to be thinking about your boundaries. What's it going to take to keep YOU engaged in the marriage? What kind of treatment are YOU willing to tolerate from a mate?

I'll be honest, it's a good time to shoot the moon here. I think if it were me, I'd want a polygraph to determine whether infidelity had already occurred... and I'd demand MC if for no other reason than watching him squirm while he repeated all his inane rhetoric to a female therapist. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and I do think it would be wise to not allow his refusal to participate stand.

It all really depends on what you want for your future and whether your WH is willing to do the hard work of recovery. Rest assured though, the future is not yet written.

((big hugs))

The choice is your about whether to attempt R or to D, Sami. You don't have to make up your mind immediately either. However, if I were you, I would go to a lawyer or a few to find out your rights. You may know as a lawyer but you may have practiced in a different area than family law and things change, too. In fact, I would file and have him served. You know that filing and serving isn't the end but just stating intentions as of this time.

I don't think you can deprogram him. He needs to want to figure himself out. If he's going for counselling it's a start. He may end up resenting your efforts in helping him see the light. I just don't think it's your burden to bear. You have enough on your plate with your own trauma and anguish. Don't let healing him interfere or replace what you need to do for yourself. I think that being busy and helping others hinders or makes us ignore what we need to do for ourselves. Fixers. Put your own oxygen mask on first. I speak from experience.

I would recommend that you don't do MC for a long time. There's no point if you D. There's no point until your WH (like others have stated, I wonder if he hasn't already found a willing partner(s)) has had considerable IC, reflected on his behavior and looked deep within. He has said and done some terrible things to you. He has a lot of work to do.

Please understand that these are my opinions. You need to decide for you. Personally, I wonder what there is to R for. I know MLC is a commonly held belief but I discount it. Did you have an MLC? I don't think I did. I think a MLC is a symptom of deeper issues. I've separated from my WW after 40 years of marriage (42 years this year before D is finalized) and will D so I have biases.

Good luck to you. Take care of yourself and the children. With time and thought do what is best for you. Personally, again, I think it's to give him his freedom to live his make believe, fantasy life but it is your choice. I'm so sorry for your situation.

I honestly do not think he has cheated yet. He wants to very badly but he always comes home right after work and he has no “unaccounted for” hours, so to speak. I know that is not a guarantee.

Mine was taking time off from work for more than 6 months before he got sloppy enough that he couldn't account for his time. It's appalling how much cheating a WS can do while still covering his tracks.

But let's say that nothing has happened yet. I would still get that polygraph if for no other reason than to gauge what level of discomfort he's willing to tolerate in order to keep the marriage. In order to reaffirm his commitment in ways that you can believe, he's going to need to step outside his comfort zone. He needs to convince you he's willing to pull out all the stops and be the partner you deserve, otherwise your own insecurities will undermine your recovery.

ETA: My WH not only went to MC when I requested it, he read books, handed over all his passwords, changed jobs, did an interstate move, took me on vacations, and overall started treating me like a girlfriend he badly wanted to impress.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 8:42 AM, June 16th (Sunday)]

The marriage may always be tainted because of the things this philosophy has driven him to say to me.

Not may, it will be. Even if your husband does everything right going forward, works on himself, shows true remorse... it will always be part of your history.

It's like when someone close to you dies, and over time you heal and move forward? But then six years later you're going through a box in the closet and find an old birthday card from them, and suddenly you're sobbing on your hallway floor because you miss them so dearly.

Infidelity/betrayal of your marriage is like that. Even if things are really good, you'll still have triggers or reminders years later that make your stomach drop and you feel weak in the knees, and you wonder if it will ever get better...

You can get through it, but you'll never get over it.

I am in such a horrible place. This forum has been extremely helpful. The feeling of having everything you have known and loved suddenly cast into uncertainty is terrible, as everybody here knows. My goal right now is therapy to work through these feelings.

At one point during our marathon discussion, he said, “why get the state involved? I can moved out, buy some land, and we can live separately. Dividing everything would mess up my kids’ lives. You all can stay on my insurance and I will take care of this household just like before. But you can do whatever you want and I can do whatever I want.” The cold, matter of factness of that statement just killed me.

He is acting loving and respectful and talking grandiose plans for our (yes “our” ) future. He seems happy. Total opposite of my current state of mind. I am dead inside.

At one point during our marathon discussion, he said, “why get the state involved? I can moved out, buy some land, and we can live separately. Dividing everything would mess up my kids’ lives. You all can stay on my insurance and I will take care of this household just like before. But you can do whatever you want and I can do whatever I want.”

What he's telling you is that he can't really envision YOU moving on. In his mind, regardless of the earlier words he mouthed about you taking lovers, you'd be sitting on the shelf collecting dust.

Have you ever watched a person's face closely when the penny dropped?.. when what you're saying finally clicks? I remember a discussion not long after DDay, when my WH was trying to figure out whether I'd ever be amenable to sex again. I told him that 'yes, I did intend to have a sexually and emotionally intimate relationship again in my life... and if it wasn't with him, it would be with someone else'. The look on his face was pure astonishment.

The cold, matter of factness of that statement just killed me.

He is acting loving and respectful and talking grandiose plans for our (yes “our” ) future.

Can you see the complete contrast in his behavior, the cognitive dissonance he has going on? He is not well, Sami. But he's not yours to fix. Work on you, like you said. You need support and rational conversation and validation from a good IC. He is simply not living in reality right now because he is positive that he has missed out and made wrong choices. Did you see 17 Again with Zac Efron and Matthew Perry? He sounds just like that character, so out of touch with reality and feeling sorry for himself.

As a lawyer, I'm sure you already know this but the response to why the state needs to get involved is this -- he has already proved himself to be untrustworthy and perfectly willing to breach his commitments. Why in the world would you trust him to take care of you in the future given that?

This red pill nonsense has made him think he's some kind of superior alpha? He's pathetic, and if/when that reality falls down on him, I suspect it's going to be a real shitshow. In some ways, I feel sorry for him, actually. But much more so, I feel for you and the trials ahead. Hang in there.

Alpha-Schmalpha, this is just ridiculous.

Maybe he has some (hopefully benign) brain tumor? This would explain a lot...

Of course, he acts happy and magnanimously (a real Alpha would do that), he's right on track, he told you what he wants and now there is a bright future ahead for him.

I suspect he won't be so generous once you will start to rain on his Schmalpha parade.

Don't despair, there is hope and with your head on your shoulders, you will be ok, I'm very confident. But, of course, it sucks. Meanwhile, you get a big hug from me

[This message edited by bookworm19 at 9:32 AM, June 16th (Sunday)]

Shortly after finding out about my XSO's cheating, I looked at the red pill/MGTOW line of thinking.

After getting a basic understanding of the concept, I quickly pulled away from this as it was not for me.

It is interesting to note, that once you took back some of the power in the relationship by putting divorce in front of him, he changed his tune.

However, it seems he still has his head imbedded in his ass.

At one point during our marathon discussion, he said, “why get the state involved? I can moved out, buy some land, and we can live separately. Dividing everything would mess up my kids’ lives. You all can stay on my insurance and I will take care of this household just like before. But you can do whatever you want and I can do whatever I want.” The cold, matter of factness of that statement just killed me.

He likely needs another push to help him come back to reality. I am with others here, put more pressure on him. A polygraph is a good start.

Make an appointment to see a family law lawyer. Leave some divorce documentation laying around where he can easily see it. Let him know, that you will not be a party to his bull shit.

Do you have family/close friends nearby for real life support?

Maybe exposing his new red pill lifestyle to his family and friends may have an effect.

I honestly do not think he has cheated yet. He wants to very badly but he always comes home right after work and he has no “unaccounted for” hours, so to speak. I know that is not a guarantee.

A word of caution Sami, the fact that he WANTS to cheat very badly is as big a red flag as you can get. Tread carefully because he will say anything right now to prevent you from pulling the plug. He wants it all. Typical cake eater.

As far as hours being accounted for, give that a hard side eye as well. Don't take it for granted. A spouse who is intent on cheating will absolutely find the time. Mine was putting in a PTO, driving 80 miles each way to bang his AP and make the drive home to be here at his usual time. Giving the allusion that he went to work.

At this point trust will have to be earned and IDK how easy that will be when your husband says he wants to cheat.

Get some rest. Take care of you and be cautious.

A huge problem with “why get the state involved” is that while he says this now, once he gets involved with one of those twenty-somethings, she may very well want to move into the “wife” role and he’ll change his tune. My WH’s 27 year old girlfriend saw him (56 yo) as the way out of all her troubles. She was planning their future life together.

So while it may start out rational, a shitstorm can blow up in a hurry. And if somebody gets pregnant, you’d better believe the state is going to get involved, so just be aware and look out for yourself.

I’m so sorry that you are going through this. My H is three years younger than I am, and though most of the time it seems like nothing, at other stages of life it has seemed like a wide gulf.

Great!, instead of crying at his feet you now are putting the pressure on him and already see some promising results! What about the exposure and disclosure to family and friends as previously recommended here? , would that not further increase the pressure on him and help if family and friends will also put moral pressure on him and tell him he should stop his destructive thoughts and stupid intentions (and it puts more watchful eyes on him)? It is a battle for your marriage, go all in I would say. Strength!