SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Yep, you now know there is more. Doesn't really matter what it is. If she won't come clean about it all, there's nothing you can do. Getting her phone now is probably pointless. I sure she has wiped it.

When my fch realized I was reading texts from the MOW, he snatched his phone from me and immediately deleted the texts. Later, after everything had come out, he said he didn't want me to read the horrible things he said about me. I will never know what he said. That's probably a good thing because I doubt I'd be able to recover from that. I'm sure he also didn't want me to read about their sex. He did eventually confess to that.

I am sorry I obsess about certain aspects. I know to most it wouldn't matter. I have to try and make sense of things though. It just helps me.

As I think about it, one thing I can say is that when I was making a laundry list of the reasons why she wouldn't give me access to her phone I noticed she would focus on replying to the allegation of having sexual penetration. I might say there were probably more meetings or more men etc, but she might ignore that all together. When she tries to give me reassurances it is always about how "that didn't happen", and yes I know to some it's all the same but it isn't that way for me. I think penetration is a bigger deal.

I take this a certain way and I also know how she is but I thought I would ask what anyone thinks about how she might ignore completely some things and focus just on the one.

It sounds like you are going to be in my position. My wife admitted to what I had the proof of.

There is more, I know, but she won't admit it. I have a feeling one day I will learn more. It is going to really suck and hurt a lot. She gets to carry that guilt and lie I guess.

One of our mutual female friends said, if she hears my wife did more, she is getting dolled up and coming for me. It was funny and nice to see a female friend trying to protect me.

I do have the whole weight control/ aging loss of attraction issue. Self esteem issues suck, but I look great.

I love her and will eat the new shit sandwich when she serves it up.

I have talked to her about it a few times. She gets quiet and sad (Used to be angry). Says she is getting better at being with me, thanks to her IC.

You know you aren't leaving. Have the talk about the outcome when she drops the bomb on you.

The way mine turned out. I told my WS, when I find out more, if she crossed enough lines, I am cheating back. She says if I do that we are getting a divorce. I pat her on the head and tell her she is cute. She hates not being in control. That gets her really pissed. I just laugh and say, "Then why are you so scared/angry? Nothing new is ever coming out, right?" Yeah, she gets to live the rest of this marriage looking over her shoulder.

I wasn't going to reply because you know...cheaters lie. Since it got bumped, here's a slight update that is not reliable, but it might feel good to just type it out.

After my last post, she told me "why" she didn't want me looking at her phone. It all had to do with this guy from the gym and how close they had become. Discussions of feelings for one another. He was going to provide her with financial assistance when she moved out, get her vehicle fixed or new one. So basically they were talking about being together as a couple. I asked her for examples of things that she felt would upset me.

-I can't wait to move out so we can be together

-I'm falling for you

Those are the ones that come to mind.

Please don't take this as me believing her, I am providing it as information only. I asked her, what are you going to do when some day he feels the need to come forward and tell me you guys fooled around more or that you guys had sex(he had a cheating wife before). She always gives half hearted denials when lying to make me dig. She wants to tell the truth after we reconcile usually. She got angry and said I don't have anything to fucking worry about because none of that happened. In all that she has said or done that went further to giving her credibility than anything. I still think it is probable that more went on. She has never, and I mean never denied with that much conviction or emotion.

She then offered to let me do whatever with her phone but said I think you'd do better not seeing what is on here but it's nothing to do with more meetings, more men, more physical.

So far I have chosen not to know the exact words and things said. I think I know what I need to know. When it comes to that.

She then offered to let me do whatever with her phone but said I think you'd do better not seeing what is on here but it's nothing to do with more meetings, more men, more physical.

So far I have chosen not to know the exact words and things said. I think I know what I need to know. When it comes to that.

Man, I don't know how you do it. I couldn't. I would have had her phone in my hand before the words were out of her mouth and had it hooked to some recovery software very soon after. The not knowing for me would be worse because I would imagine the worst, and that snowballs.

Posted by Sumofone:

She has never, and I mean never denied with that much conviction or emotion.

This means nothing whatsoever. And even if she isn't lying about this one thing - and it is common for cheaters to be offended and indignant about you not believing their one truthful statement - it doesn't negate her other 1,000 lies, does it?

Posted by Sumofone:

She then offered to let me do whatever with her phone but said I think you'd do better not seeing what is on here but it's nothing to do with more meetings, more men, more physical.

So far I have chosen not to know the exact words and things said. I think I know what I need to know. When it comes to that.

Gently, do you really want to know what you are dealing with with regard to your wife's cheating behavior?

There is a chance that she offered the phone only because one of her boyfriends or girlfriends showed her how to wipe the phone for real.

But still, not taking the phone makes it less likely to find the information, because every day the phone is used more deleted data is destroyed.

If you don't want to know, that is your choice to make of course. I would want to know.

I cannot forgive what I don't know, that's my point of view.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 5:19 PM, August 20th (Tuesday)]

She got angry and said I don't have anything to fucking worry about because none of that happened. In all that she has said or done that went further to giving her credibility than anything. I still think it is probable that more went on.

My two cents - If you think there is any chance you might Reconcile you should run a program on her phone. You know how much pain you are in now. How much pain the limbo of not knowing is.

Beginning to heal/trust and then finding out in a month or 3 months or a year will bring you back to base one+ in pain again. You need to know what you are forgiving in order to heal. If you have already hit you breaking point and divorce is your only plan that's fine, but if you think there might be a chance of Reconciliation you should learn the truth and make an informed decision about if the marriage can recover from it.

She has never, and I mean never denied with that much conviction or emotion

The amount of WS that have sworn on their parents life, their child's life... and lied on this site is unreal. Don't put too much stock in her words. Look at her actions. Her actions are saying don't look at my phone then... a few days later (in order to hide info)... a passive aggressive you can look at it.

Maybe I am afraid of what I would find on the phone. I'm not really sure. I just don't feel the need to look at it, like at all.

If there is more, and certainly there is, she will tell me eventually. She is absolutely a trickle truth person, but on big stuff she has eventually always come forward. It's sad that I am willing to not know the "little" stuff.

I knew no one would put any stock in her emotional denial but it is not something she does. When she was denying the physical it was always a bland half hearted effort. She wanted me to keep digging to pull it out of her.

We are all wired differently. I know, if I were the one in her shoes I would give her 100% truth the moment of being caught. Some never give the whole truth. Some eventually get there and some eventually get to about 80% of the truth.

She has written me letters, proclaiming what did and didn't happen. She comes to me unsolicited to tell me what happened and to give re-assurances that there are no more lies.

What I believe is that when it comes to the physical aspect I do know the truth. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if I am wrong. I think she isn't telling me about other chatting "friends", because in her head, it wasn't a big deal. It's OK to lie about something small.

I know it seems like I am not listening and that I am being blind. I am listening and I am very appreciative of the feedback I am given, especially those that say things I might not want to hear. I wasn't at first. My emotions were too raw. It's hard to hear such things being said about your wife even when she deserves it and more. I know from reading many first timer posts that I am just like all of them. There is a pattern to this. We come here hurt and emotional and think it was just emotional or online. Hell, my topic is addicted to sexting. Then slowly over time we realize our spouses were doing the most depraved acts and loving it. No guilt, no remorse, they loved every minute of it until they got caught. My story might end up there and it is because so many of you have helped me stay grounded that if it does, maybe it won't hurt so bad and maybe I will just move on with my life.

So thank you to everyone that has taken the time out to reply and who are looking out for me, some random stranger going through hell.

Sum, it hasn't really served you well to put out there what you will and won't tolerate and then waffle on it. It sends a message that your boundaries flexible and there is no real line in the sand for you and given your attitude, I'd say that's probably true. You've talked yourself down from working on detaching and moving on without her a couple of times now at least.

What do you want R to look like? If she doesn't get IC, is that a deal breaker? If she cheats again, is that a deal breaker? Where is your line in sand? Now would be a great time to make a list of what you expect from her and give it to her.

If you don't verify what you are afraid of, your imagination will fill in the blanks.

Better to know the truth, even if it hurts.

I agree with you Sum, she needs to dump all of the low class 'friends' that she's holding onto. They are sabotaging your efforts. They don't want to see a happy ending for you two. They want her engaging in their behaviors so they can point and say that they're not as bad as that. Also, you should obtain her phone and retrieve the data. There's no requirement to look at it but you should retrieve it so you have the option. It will also bring the reality and possibly fear to her mind that you're going to know everything. And lastly, don't tell her that you stopped talking to your female friend. She doesn't need to know and it keeps the heat on. Take care of yourself.

This is your story

At 32 you had an affair with a 19 year old as you were going through a painful divorce.

To you it was just an affair.

Then she got pregnant.

Marriage didn’t happen until she appeared mature enough to handle it. She wasn’t.

She never got past showing off. This became sexting etc.

Two more children arrive.

She continues to put the message out there that she will trade sex for attention

Nothing you do changes her behavior for very long.

I wonder if she was sexually molested because something happened in her childhood that stopped her emotional maturing. The person you describe is about 3 or 4 emotionally. She can discuss things but she is never able to go deep enough to change things. Here is where my training and job take over. Children who live with chaos or toxicity cannot stop being afraid long enough to grow up. You have described a child. “Look everybody, she’s singing. Isn’t that cute?” At 3 and 4 children eat that up. If the rest of her little life stinks then she quickly learns to show off because there is a positive payoff. I don’t know if this describes her childhood but I wouldn’t be surprised. As an adult she gets tons of attention from sexually acting out. Fast payoff.

Lastly, you describe someone who easily moves in and out of your marriage and your home. This is a serious problem with an inability to form deep attachments.

As crazy as this sounds I think she was robbed the ability to grow up.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 6:12 PM, August 22nd (Thursday)]

Cooley, no t/j intended but would you please post a thread about what you know and see and sense based on your training and experience? Not in a way that discloses who you are, but in a way that may help people identify when a WS may be acting out on undisclosed issues? I know no one wants to support “invented” excuses for infidelity, but knowing the truth when assessing chances of R can be very important.

Many thanks for all you share!

Odonna, thank you for the nice thing you wrote.

I loved going to college. I took every class offered in psychology, family systems, personality disorders etc. Then I changed my major and wound up training adults for certain roles. I was also in court testifying all.the.time. I guess I have a pretty good handle on how people behave under stress. I also read constantly anything about human behavior.

I am the adult child of a cheater. My mother. Poof! There went the family home. No holidays spent as a family. I had no real idea how this would affect our family until I realized we set out on our young lives without any wise input from our elders. We were on our on. Back to school I went. It’s a pretty safe place most of the time.

If you take emotions out of behavior and just look at the behavior with the idea that the person doing it is getting something out of it. The hardest thing is that some people get something out of negative things. I have no idea what makes serial killers, serial cheaters, child molesters act out But taking the emotion out of it sometimes you can get to the bottom of it. I do truly believe there are people who are born monsters and some who are made monsters. There is a payoff or people won’t keep doing whatever it is they are doing. There is a payoff of some sort if you are the betrayed one and stay in your grief for years. I don’t know what the payoff is but I know there has to be one. Using the old standby just think about the child who puts his hand on a hot stove. What he got out of that was.....don’t do that again. If he continue to put his hand on the hot stove you would wonder what is this child getting out of this. It would scare you because you would recognize that something is seriously wrong with the child. One area that is being studied is sex addiction. People who are addicted appear to be operating out of intense anxiety and just like a rubber band their compulsion gets so bad they snap. Great guilt and a promise it won’t happen again until anxiety takes over. Then there are serial cheaters. They appear to be emotional con artists. Different from sex addicts. It takes an expert to tell the difference.

This forum is a gold mine for someone trying to learn about behaviors. It has helped me understand my mother. Lots of intelligent posters who use their skills, and experiences, to help others.

Sorry. This was long winded.

The one emotion that the person you are involved with should always have is empathy. If they do not have empathy they are not good candidates for relationships. People with absolutely no empathy are usually sociopaths. That means they have little to no regard for your pain. You are basically a thing to them. That’s one of the hardest things for us to get over. We think with only some training or some counseling this person will just get it. You cannot make a blind person see and you cannot make a sociopath have empathy.

I think people with personality disorders are not counted properly. There are too many people on too many sites talking about the damage that has been done to them by someone who sounds suspiciously like a narcissist. Narcissist are so ego driven that everybody else is second place or worse. They can feel empathy as long as it does not interfere with their own needs.

she needs to dump all of the low class 'friends' that she's holding onto

To my knowledge she stopped talking to them. She has one main friend that she confides in and she is a friend of the marriage. Her mom is a sticking point. Her mom "loves" me but is everything my wife is plus a 1000. She modeled worse behavior to my wife while she was growing up. I do not consider her a friend of the marriage even though we have a good relationship. All of her advice is very self serving and often just plain wrong. I told my wife not to confide in her and just give her updates on how things are going when she asks. So far, that's happened.

This is your story

At 32 you had an affair with a 19 year old as you were going through a painful divorce.

To you it was just an affair.

Then she got pregnant.

Marriage didn’t happen until she appeared mature enough to handle it. She wasn’t.

She never got past showing off. This became sexting etc.

Two more children arrive.

She continues to put the message out there that she will trade sex for attention

Nothing you do changes her behavior for very long.

This is all spot on except if you mean affair to be I was cheating with my current wife on my first wife. I wasn't. I was divorced and separated for almost 2 years when my current wife came into the picture. Since my first marriage was a "no fault" divorce the judge ruled that we had to live separate for 1 year before granting the divorce.

I wonder if she was sexually molested because something happened in her childhood that stopped her emotional maturing.

All of your assessment of her is in line to what I have often thought, especially this. The only story she ever told me was that she once was asleep on the couch, wearing "cheerleading" shorts (short shorts). She woke up and her brother was trying to pull them off her and then held her down telling her not to scream. She fought him off and nothing else happened. She is very traumatized by it, mostly hurt I think that her brother would do that. I think she was maybe in the 9th grade or so. He is a low life. I won't speak to him. Here is something else that I have noticed, if she is laying under the covers, she has to have 1 foot out from under the covers at all times. You do not lay on top of her while she is under the covers, She will lose it and become violent trying to get you off her.

I have often told her that she evolving as a person at some point in her life and she is stuck living her life like a 15 year old might.

I did not think you were cheating. I should have been clearer.

This is what you need to come to terms with. You cannot change her. You cannot fix her. Whatever is driving her has nothing to do with you. She would be doing this married or single. Your focus needs to be on your children. You do have an enormous amount of power over their childhoods. Use it wisely. Betrayeds often use up all their energy over the WS. You have to refocus and make sure your kids are ok.

Betrayeds often use up all their energy over the WS. You have to refocus and make sure your kids are ok.

Lord this is so true. My lack of attention to our kids has been noticeable in their behavior. When my youngest daughter started having trouble sleeping I said enough is enough and started making them a priority. Once my wife saw just how badly her actions were affecting the kids, she too has changed a great deal.

Our oldest could tell something was up. So we had a PG, in very broad terms discussion with her. My 2 oldest know what is going on, and my current wife is not their mother. They love their step mom very much and have been heart broken for me.

I think things are stabilized for all of them and their behavior is much better. We both are committed to providing them with a healthy home. I truly and honestly think my wife did not understand how greatly her actions would upset them because she thought she could insulate them from what she was doing.

It is because of them and this realization that I think if my WW was ever pulled to cheat that she would end the marriage. I don't think she wants to put them through this again.

Today is my 2 month anniversary of catching my wife.

Nothing new to report really. I am much stronger than before. Even when the admission of physical acts came about (it will be 3 weeks this Wednesday on that), I bounced back just a bit quicker.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to give me advice since I first posted. You have helped make me a stronger person.

Yesterday ended up being a big backslide for my WW. We had a decent morning. Some trickle truth came out, I tried to handle the news gracefully. Not because she deserves it but in hopes that she would feel "safe" to open up more.

We are talking back and forth when the messages slow. When things pick back up she is a totally different person. For a good stretch now I have felt good about the direction she has taken. On Sunday she was so sincere and real about many things we all hope to hear our waywards tell us.

She is now blameshifting, being defensive, gaslighting, you name it.

Come to find out when she had gotten quiet, her mother had messaged her and then a phone call. My wife had decided to delete social media, on her own, I didn't even suggest it. Hey mom was outraged that I would make her do such a thing. That if she had to I should. She is sick of my controlling ways and that her and my wifes dad were about to straighten me out.

Thing is she knows some of what her daughter has been up to but not really much, but it is enough to tell her daughter that she is probably doing the right thing and it would be good for healing. That is not her mom. She is so selfish and take all my wife's bad qualities and multiply them by 10 and you have her.

So I tall my wife her mom is not a friend of our marriage but I don't know what to do next. It's her mom. I can't stand the woman. Her husband is a great man and she has cheated and treated him like shit for years. How do I handle this?

Sum, you have to figure out what you can and can't live with. Your WW isn't going to cut her mom off even though in an ideal situation she should greatly minimize contact with her and not talk about your marriage issues. Your MIL didn't have to do much other than play upon the thoughts your WW was already having - the ones you saw glimpses of for weeks but chose to ignore.

So how much more can you take? Will you be laying out what's required of your WW to stay married? Will you re-read the 180 and follow it?

NO ONE can make your WW remorseful. Not you, not SI, not even her mom even if she had a miraculous change of heart now. Only your WW can stop the madness. And if she won't, you can either rugsweep or start moving on without her.