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You do not get the right to disregard personal responsibility just because someone else wronged you. This is Ethics 101. You could also argue that none of these things would have happened if your husband refused her advances.

I do see your point there. I agree, that is why so many of us do not go off the deep end. We don't want to stoop to their level. "Turn the other cheek". I know, your agnostic. I know you still have moral/ethical values. As does my agnostic husband does. Hell, your whole argument and angst is about the stomping on of your moral/ethical values. (On a side note...my issue was faith if you want to get into the religuous debate on how religion played into my husband's A). Just because she is hurt and in pain gives her no right. Just as, because our WS are in their own personal Hell or pain they have no right to do what they did.

In addition to that same argument you stated. You are just now stating that your WW is responsible for the pain she caused the BS as well. You are stating Ethics 101. That can be worked with the fact that just because her husband said the vows and owes her the protection, your WW is still responsible for actions (no matter to whom). On an ethical level that you are stating...you wife owed her as a human being to NOT get involved with her husband. She too is responsible to the BS. You do not get the right to disregard personal responsibility just because you didn't say I do. She is responsible to the BS as well. Her actions hurt someone, regardless if the spouse was in charge of protecting her from your wife.

If you want to argue Ethics...you can't pick and choose which ones will just work for your WS. Sure the spouse is more accountable, but on an Ethical level-you can't say that your WW had no accountability to that woman for actions just because she didn't marry her.

Yes, and I know the argument...it could have been someone else. True, he could have been with someone else. Then she would be responsible. And your WW would have been with someone different and been responsible for her actions with that person. Her husband let her, well he wouldn't have if your WW wasn't there to do it. Just because he let her doesn't absolve her of accountability.

Just like you are a human first and a mother last. You are a human first and a spouse last. You are still a human causing pain to another human regardless of being married.

Hell, maybe that is why so many married spouses have A with married spouses. Maybe they think that they are not responsible for their actions to the BS, because that spouse is married. They just feel they are magically absolved from accountability because the husband/wife should have protected them.

Maybe I should rob a bank and shoot someone and say sorry. The guard was accountable for protecting you...it is not my fault you got hurt.

Idon't think anything anyone says that is not in exact line with what you want to hear will ever get through. I'm sorry, but sometimes we have to hear the crap we don't want more than the stuff we do.

I have to agree. The dogmatism of the debate has gotten ridiculous, and I can't help but wonder what the purpose of the debate is. Arguing with reality for the next 10 years is going to get you nowhere, and the focus on the OBS is so totally misplaced for any kind of real healing to occur. It is a straw man....

The OBS was wronged,by her WS, but also by the WW. We can debate all day what was "proper" for her to do, but it is done, and as many people have said , it could have been far worse. One can have their feelings about it, without debate. Not everyone agrees, and while they see your point of view, they don't share it, and they aren't going to. There are, perhaps, healthier ways to look at it that will cause you less pain, I'd suggest working that through with a counselor, because the current stance about it is unresolvable and will only cause you pain.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 10:34 AM, April 27th (Sunday)]

I am going to say something that is probably going to piss off a ton of people, but fuck it.

I really think the whole "I went batshit crazy after dday" defensiveness is about not wanting to take responsibility for your actions. I think anyone holding this up as some kind of justification for their behavior, rather than simply acknowledging that their behavior was fucked up and inappropriate with an "I feel bad for the other BS/kids/etc" needs to sit down and look at their OWN shit long and hard, because one thing is plain there: that is an attitude devoid of empathy.

That is 100% untrue. The simple fact that OW knew my H was married with kids meant that (in my mind) mine was not an *ACTION* but a *REACTION*. But not for her flirting and throwing herself at my H, and him being to stupid and starved for ego kibbles to see her for what she was, I wouldn't have had the reaction I did. My H was responsible to me and my kids, but the OW was just as responsible as a thinking human being. Who DOESN'T know that sleeping with a married person will ultimately hurt someone?

I went batshit crazy after dday. I mean I called OW, I emailed her, I GRILLED my H and had to have every.last.detail of the A. I wanted there to be NOTHING he shared with her that I didn't know about. I wanted NOTHING to be left "special" between them. I nagged him until he told me all of HER secrets as well. And I used those secrets to hurt her. I was mean, vindictive, and damn near murderous.

I contacted her BH who was under the impression they were working on getting their marriage back together after a separation. They had a 4 year old son.

When I was finished, her BH divorced her, she lost her job after I contacted them and told them what was happening, and her room mate kicked her and her son out fearing reprisal from "the crazy wife". My job was done. I was happy with what I had wrought.

Well lovely. You own that, though, not the OW. You own it all just as much as if you had instead elected to go out and fuck some random dude off the street to have your own affair as a response to your WS actions.

I think this entire thread is borderline insane. The other BW was a thoughtless bitch about mpb, mpb was considerate of her. He was on reflection upset about her thoughtlessness for him as a person, well aware of the pain she was in as it mirrored his own yet also well aware she was perfectly capable of acting with empathy just as he did.

No, a lot of people aren't that collected and calm, but most people will at least acknowledge and apologize after the fact. Frankly there are BS in this thread that are behind most of the WS on this forum in that regard.

Whether or not the magnitude of this shit is massive or petty, the disregard of another human being as a human being is wrong in any capacity.

SG,

So what do you think the BS should do? A lot of the stuff you quoted would have happened anyway just by disclosing the A.

So why do we even disclose the A? Perhaps the other family would live happily ever after if you didn't do it?

Where is the line?

As for the comparison with the RA I disagree. However, unlikely most people here I think that an RA is a valid response for an A - and it is the only type of infidelity that I can empathize. I can empathize with revenge but not with infidelity.

Saying that I think it'd be a huge mistake and I never did it. But I can understand someone who has an RA.

I believe the APs were equal blame. They were gold digging. My spouse was at the lowest part in his life an went scum bathing. So yeah equal blame. They mean nothing to me.

So as they say it takes two. The people they chose is a reflection of themselves at that time in the WS life.

Their actions is just that theirs. Not the BS an not because of the BS.

Yes the AP BS sounds messed up. Rightfully so infidelity is a b!tch.

So what do you think the BS should do? A lot of the stuff you quoted would have happened anyway just by disclosing the A.

I'm saying the BS should own responsibility for their behaviors and should have some modicum of sympathy for the other people involved, at the very least after the fact. It's not some arcane formula.

As for the comparison with the RA I disagree. However, unlikely most people here I think that an RA is a valid response for an A - and it is the only type of infidelity that I can empathize. I can empathize with revenge but not with infidelity.

You disagree with what? That a BS would not be responsible for his actions even when it came to an affair?

I cannot empathize with an affair of any nature since all affairs are the same as far as I am concerned. I really don't care if someone has an affair as a choice of action after their WS does - your WS didn't make you have that affair any more than anything you did caused your WS to have an affair.

In the Betrayed Men thread the topic of beating down the OM comes up fairly regularly. The theme to it tends to the value of the payoff vs. the consequences. Most men do not want to pay the jail time and loss of access to their kids for the satisfaction of beating the OM to within an inch of his life. The important thing to look at here is that there is no question of justifying behavior or evading consequences. It is assumed that beating the OM carries legal and social consequences that the BH is just going to pay out.

Yes, people lash out in an emotional state. That doesn't qualify anything as acceptable on its own merit. I'll tell you right now if any BW had done half the shit most women on this site have done I'd have brought her ass to court and not been nearly as patient as it seems most BH are. I respond swiftly to violations of my personal space like that. In short, if your pain is directly hurting me or mine: Fuck Your Pain, because that's exactly what you are saying to me. I'm not married to you, I'm not carrying you.

So it doesn't get lost yet again, the simple point is that rather than spool out the endless justifications, a simple acknowledgement of the other BS as a real person is really all that it takes here.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 6:36 AM, April 28th (Monday)]

I'll tell you right now if any BW had done half the shit most women on this site have done I'd have brought her ass to court and not been nearly as patient as it seems most BH are.

How very American of you.

On my first dday, I did blame the OW because I didn't understand how A's worked. I thought the AP was a temptress and my xWH only strayed because of the AP. Five years later when I learned my xWH was never not fucking OW I realized that the AP was just a benchwarmer. There was a spot open, and she got slotted in. Now I know that As are the fault of the WS period. APs are just there, they could be anyone.

That's why I don't get anger at other BS's. I mean seriously who caused this? Your WS did. The collateral damage is ALL their fault. What's with the blame shifting? And lack of compassion for someone else who suffered? It sound like rugsweeping to be upset at a BS that acted out and caused you problems. Because in reality, the other BS didn't cause you problems, your WS did.

I'll tell you right now if any BW had done half the shit most women on this site have done I'd have brought her ass to court and not been nearly as patient as it seems most BH are.

Just wondering how you would have held the OP's OBS accountable for her actions in this sitch.

What would be "expected" of her to "own her shit" for the angry messages left for the AP of her WH?

Should she have been taken to court?

Just curious, as I'm not sure what the point of all this discussion is. I don't see that she wasn't owning her shit for airing her feelings on the matter. When someone does something wrong to another person, is that person expected to say nothing in order to take the so-called "high road"?

not to say that by expressing her disgust and anger at the AP, she was absolving her own WH of responsibility. I seriously doubt that was happening and for anyone to assume otherwise would be unfair.

SG, you nailed it. I could try to quote parts of your posts that I agree with, but that would just be a repost of everything.

Well said, brother.

ETA: Despite what I said above I will quote this with certain parts italicized for additional emphasis, because it's a concept that seems lost on so many here:

In short, if your pain is directly hurting me or mine: Fuck Your Pain, because that's exactly what you are saying to me. I'm not married to you, I'm not carrying you.

So it doesn't get lost yet again, the simple point is that rather than spool out the endless justifications, a simple acknowledgement of the other BS as a real person is really all that it takes here.

The ability to endlessly justify bad behavior...I think that's the reason we have thousands of people on SI trying to survive this nightmare.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 11:36 AM, April 28th (Monday)]

On my first dday, I did blame the OW because I didn't understand how A's worked. I thought the AP was a temptress and my xWH only strayed because of the AP. Five years later when I learned my xWH was never not fucking OW I realized that the AP was just a benchwarmer. There was a spot open, and she got slotted in. Now I know that As are the fault of the WS period. APs are just there, they could be anyone.

But Cayce, you STILL DON'T Understand how A's work! You have SOME understanding of how it worked with YOUR H in your situation! You have determined the APs (in all situations?) were "benchwarmers" who took the spot when it was open. NOT ALL SITUATIONS are just like yours!

In my case, my H was not some innocent victim, however he also was not looking for a benchwarmer to be slotted in. The OW did go after him after his mother and DD died and those are just facts, not convenient excuses to "excuse" my H. My H has never been "excused" for his actions. However he is extremely remorseful and learned from it, so I have forgiven him. And I don't forgive her because I don't believe she is sorry and I do believe she would do the same thing again if given the chance.

[This message edited by Bobbi_sue at 11:48 AM, April 28th (Monday)]

But I can understand someone who has an RA.

t/j

I can't. To me a person engaging in a RA is just a cheater who finally found the excuse to act out that he or she needed. Or maybe just a person whose foundation was so shaky that he folded like a wet tent when faced with real adversity.

It's a grade school playground mentality - "but he/she started it!"

A person who engages in a so-called "RA" should really look deep inside him or herself and ask why his or her own mores and values were subject to the choices that another person makes.

There are so many things in life that we can't control. Possessions, money, people we love, our homes, our jobs, and our own lives can be taken from us by other people. We certainly can't control the choices of others, we can only try to influence them.

But our character and integrity are ours no matter what else happens. Only we can give those away.

Just getting back after the weekend. I'll make a few more follow up comments on the posts since my last response and then I will be more than happy to call it a day on this topic. I'm sure a lot of others are sick of seeing this one still alive.

Tearsoflove:

How is blaming this woman's husband for the OW's actions any different than anyone on here pointing out that the BW contacting you was a result of your wife's actions?

I don't feel that I ever suggested that the AP was responsible for my WWs actions. I'm saying that the husband had a greater responsibility to protect his marriage and honor his BS and family than my WW did. My WW's responsibility in this regard was to honor and respect me and our family. If you use that logic, than neither party engages in an A in the first place, if they are otherwise prioritizing the protection of their families.

You cannot argue that the BW in your case is responsible for her actions and then tell another poster that her husband is responsible for the OWs actions because he invited them by having an affair.

I don't believe I said that, if I did I mis-spoke and I apologize.

The fact is, if your wife had not slept with the woman's husband, there would not have been any calls or anything else. Your wife invited the crazy into your life

Again, I completely disagree. There would not have been any phone calls if the BS would have decided not to make any phone calls. My wife invited an A into my life. The 'crazy' is the decision of those engaging in it, and they alone hold responsibility for it.

Ultimately, we are ALL responsible for our own actions and reactions.

This seems to contradict your previous comments as quoted above. If we are all responsible for our own actions and reactions, then the phone calls were actions that only the BS can hold responsibility for.

I am curious how you treated your WW after discovery... Did you ever call her a name? Did you ever argue? Are you always respectful and considerate when you are wronged by someone?

After discovery I was livid with WW, did call her names and argued incessently. I'm not often wronged by someone, I think probably because I live a rather quiet, boring, uncluttered life. I am not someone with 100s of friends. I am not a socially outgoing person. As a result, I probably have less exposure to be wronged. I will admit that I have not always been respectful in response.

RidingHealingRd:

mpb1974, I would encourage you to take a step back and digest this. his#1 has a valid point which is truly evident after reading through this entire post.

I have considered others views and I have not agreed with them based on acknowledgement of the concept of personal responsibility. WW had an A and entered into a false, forced friendship that crushed lives. She was able to do so with the cooperation of the AP. BS has every right to be angry, even to contact WW directly if I'm not exposed to it. BS does not have a right to infringe on my privacy in order to enact her revenge or express her rage. I'm sorry, taking a step back is not going to change my view on such a fundamental ethical consideration.

hopefulmother:

On an ethical level that you are stating...you wife owed her as a human being to NOT get involved with her husband. She too is responsible to the BS.

I would agree that WW is responsible to the BS as a human being (as we all are to each other), but I do not believe that WW has the same level of responsibility to BS as BS's husband did. Remember, without the husband's consent, WW never meets his wife, never touches her kids, never enters their home. WW is still dispicable in her actions, but I feel that the responsibility to the BS rested with the husband. This applies to my WW's responsibility to me as well, to keep people like the AP away from me and out of our lives. I'm not going to blame the AP for that breach of security, I'm going to blame WW. I do agree though that WW had an ethical responsibility not to harm BS (or any other human for that matter).

bionicgal:

The dogmatism of the debate has gotten ridiculous, and I can't help but wonder what the purpose of the debate is.

I agree that things have gotten convoluted here. My main point is that the BS had no consideration for ME and MY feelings in this matter. Throw out her husband, my wife, their actions. I was hurting just as the BS was. I chose to respect her pain and privacy in response to the discovery. She chose to disregard mine. In reflection, I find that irritating. I don't lose sleep over it. I wish her well in her recovery.

StillGoing:

The other BW was a thoughtless bitch about mpb, mpb was considerate of her. He was on reflection upset about her thoughtlessness for him as a person, well aware of the pain she was in as it mirrored his own yet also well aware she was perfectly capable of acting with empathy just as he did...... Whether or not the magnitude of this shit is massive or petty, the disregard of another human being as a human being is wrong in any capacity.

This is a beautiful relection of my feelings on the matter, and my motivation behind posting them. Thank you.

cayc:

Now I know that As are the fault of the WS period. APs are just there, they could be anyone.

I agree. I still feel that APs have an ethical obligation to avoid encroaching on another's safety and privacy, but ultimately they do not get an opportunity to do that without the WS's consent. The BS also has the reasonable expectation that the WS will honor the vows that they entered into. Whereas an expectation that a stranger will not willingly disregard their marriage, while plausible if all humans were held to the same ethical standards, is not reasonable in our morally ambiguous reality.

[This message edited by mpb1974 at 12:19 PM, April 28th (Monday)]

This stuck out to me:

the contacts from AP's BW did not last past a few weeks after discovery (last contact probably around February 2013), so it is not an issue any longer.

I can't help but wonder if the real issue is that you regret not doing anything about it over a year ago. That's a long time to hold a grudge against the BW.

I know that I'm not in the minority when I say I wish there were things I did differently. Perhaps that's what you're feeling and, for all you know, the BW may have second thoughts as to her reaction.

Everyone has to find their own way through this quagmire. Whether I would have chosen the same path or not, I respect what others have done in order to heal.

How very American of you.

Really? How about you elaborate on that? No snarky little evasive bullshit, lets hear exactly what the fuck that's supposed to mean in fine detail.

Just wondering how you would have held the OP's OBS accountable for her actions in this sitch.

If I fly off the handle in a rage and knock the shit out of my wife, I am accountable for that. If I fly off the handle and knock the shit out of the OM, I am accountable for that.

What is the disconnect here? The follow up should be logical.

What would be "expected" of her to "own her shit" for the angry messages left for the AP of her WH?

Should she have been taken to court?

No, the discussion has progressed beyond that IMO, and into the realm of people abandoning personal responsibility because Emotions. Whether or not the BW in the OP should be taken to court or not us up to mpb. The issue here, as far as I am concerned, is the total lack of empathy for him as a BS and the repeated "You need to be aware of her pain" crap that is utterly lacking in reciprocation.

Just curious, as I'm not sure what the point of all this discussion is. I don't see that she wasn't owning her shit for airing her feelings on the matter. When someone does something wrong to another person, is that person expected to say nothing in order to take the so-called "high road"?

The point is that everyone is telling one BS to suck it up and eat the pain of the other BS because his WS caused it - as if the OM in the situation were not an equally responsible source of pain.

I have said over and over again what the point is. I have said the point is you and others who tell a BS to sit down and take the crazy from another BS and accept that is their "process" of healing are completely and totally disregarding another BS in this equation. If the BH in your situation set your house on fire and filled your office with laughing gas as part of his "process" while you tried your damndest to stay NC and respect their privacy, and you expressed frustration at the lack of consideration as a BS you received - should I tell you to suck it up and deal with being disregarded as a person because that other BS obviously needs to spew pain all over the place, bystanders be fucking damned?

So yes, when someone does something wrong, it's expected that at least a brief expression of empathy in the wake of that wrongdoing is provided.

mpb: I am just going to say it again plainly - you are also a BS and have a right to express frustration at being disregarded by someone, regardless who they are. You're welcome and I hope you're having a better week.

LivinginLimbo: lol-I was just thinking about what you posted. Would I do anything differently. Part of me wishes I wasn't so nice and understanding with the AP. Part of me wishes I could go bat-shit crazy on her and humiliate her in public or told her BF right away for revenge.

But, I didn't. The reality is we wish we could have, but still given the chance we most likely wouldn't have changed a thing. Because that is who we are and that is the way we handled it based on who we are. I wish I could lash out to her in all my pain, but at the end of the day; I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I am just not that ugly. She had a 9yr old daughter and innocent boyfriend that didn't deserve my wrath.

MPB1974: Thank you for clarifying and for making us all really think about this. I really do hope you find peace with this. Perhaps one day you will see the BS in passing and you can get your answers or put the issue to rest. I truly am sorry that you had that additional let down in the midst of the fallout. If anything, perhaps your post may have prevented some other BS from unleashing her pain at the expense of another BS or child. This post just might make them think twice.

Stillgoing: I hear you. Yes, understand the actions...condone it...nope.

He is a BS trying to heal the M, he doesn't need to be reminded of what his WW did, or is, or what others think. That should be private between the BS and AP. MPB1974 needed to see his WW in a positive light and that isn't going to happen with someone constantly reminding him of how negative his WW was.

RA are awful...someone else is hurting due to your need for revenge another BS (though I guess they might be single)but another AP's integrity that you are helping them to destroy.

everyone is telling one BS to suck it up and eat the pain of the other BS because his WS caused it

Actually, Stillgoing, I don't think anyone told him he didn't have a right to be upset. And I can say unequivocally that "everyone" definitely didn't say that. mpb posted about his situation which sparked conversation and differing points of view much like many things on this site do. He got many different types of responses. I know I didn't tell him to "suck it up" because I agree that his feelings weren't considered. I presented some options for how he might move past his feelings about it, one of which was to contact the other BS for an apology. If mpb only wanted a pat on the back and a "there, there", all he had to do was say so. I'm a solution oriented person so if someone just wants virtual hugs, I usually let the more nurturing posters handle it. If "everyone" was saying the same thing, this topic likely wouldn't be 7 pages long.

mpb, I don't know how mired you still are in your distress over the other BW's behavior. Any suggestions I've made have been with the desire to help you move forward from that. Sometimes fixating on someone else's inappropriate actions can keep us from fully enjoying forward momentum. It's like having strings attached pulling you backward. I believe you've handled all of the responses very well. I appreciate that you took the time to answer the question I posed and that you have really considered what has been said.

I think for me what sticks out from all of these posts is how we all tend to come at and judge things from our own "standards". Visiting other countries helped me understand how futile that is. What is moral and right to one is often wrong to others.

I once visited a country where dog is considered a delicacy. In my country, we don't eat dogs. At one point during the visit, my husband and I were out on a walk and rounded a corner to an open courtyard where two men had a dog hung from a tree and were burning it's hair off with a torch. My husband squeezed my hand and said "Don't say anything." as we walked by. Now, had I been judging the behavior by the standards of my own country, I might have rushed in and tried to stop them. But I understood that my standards didn't apply in this case. I still had the right to feel disgusted at having been subjected to the sight of men burning the hair off of what is normally a pet in my country.

In some countries, they stone people who commit adultery. In others, they execute people for drug offenses. In some, they eat dogs.

My point: If we don't even have consistent rules for humanitarian behavior from one country to another, it would be unrealistic to expect other humans to live up to our own standards. That doesn't mean that the BW in your case did nothing wrong. But she may have done nothing wrong in her eyes. You are judging her behavior by your standards but she is likely judging her behavior by her own. And, of course, without contacting her, you have no way of knowing if she would apologize for hurting you. Based on what you've posted about yourself, you are either enlightened beyond what the average person typically achieves without years and years of introspection or you are socially isolated to the point of only being able to see your own behavior as a model for everyone else's. I like to think it's the first because of your thoughtful responses. Either way, I don't believe your assessment that the BW's behavior was selfish and hurtful is wrong. You were subjected to her vitriol and had done nothing to her to warrant being subjected to it even if it wasn't directed at you. You are definitely entitled to your feelings about it.

I do want to thank you for posting about it, either way. I believe your post is a lesson that people often fail to consider all of the potential consequences of their actions, particularly when emotional. Perhaps your post made someone who was considering calling and leaving a message on a family phone rethink it. I know that it certainly made me go back through my own actions after dday to determine if there was any collateral damage that I didn't consider while my emotions were high. I don't think it occurs to many of us, when we're thinking of pounding the OW's face in, that her family would be hurt to see her with a bruised face.

How very American of you.

Really? How about you elaborate on that? No snarky little evasive bullshit, lets hear exactly what the fuck that's supposed to mean in fine detail.

You are very angry on this thread and thank you for swearing at me. The swearing at me is uncalled for and is mean and mean-spirited. It's as if you are mad at someone and taking it out on us/me here.

I meant that it's very American to immediately think "someone sent me a nastygram in the mail, I'll sue". There's no tort here. There's nothing to sue for. It's a petty way to retaliate, because threatening to sue is nothing but retaliation when nothing but your feelings are hurt it makes you no better than the person who is acting out against you. And if there's a criminal act, then *if* the police will arrest, you can tell AG you want to press charges, but if it's not a case to them, you'll be SOL.

I'm really sorry you are so upset. But none of us on this thread caused whatever is making you so angry. (And I've noticed you are angry in a lot of your posts on SI and for that I'm sorry too). This thread is a discussion about BS behaviors, which aren't always stellar, but if you claim you are a BS and can't understand where the less than stellar behavior comes from, you're being disingenuous.