SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A huge problem with “why get the state involved” is that while he says this now, once he gets involved with one of those twenty-somethings, she may very well want to move into the “wife” role and he’ll change his tune. My WH’s 27 year old girlfriend saw him (56 yo) as the way out of all her troubles. She was planning their future life together.

Another reason would be so that the OP can remarry. Why should she give up the husband/wife dynamic just because her current one flaked?I like being married. I like being a wife and having a husband. If my current husband hadn't pulled his head out of his ass, I would have REPLACED HIM. Why is it that cheaters believe they can replace us as lovers, but that their own grand selves are completely indispensable?

The WS has boldly stated that his intention was to replace his wife with younger lovers, but it never occurred to him that she might replace HIM with a better husband and a stepfather for the kids.

Sami, I hope for your sake that the discussions stick but it's possible that when things normalize a little he will double down on TRP. It's not uncommon for people who have fallen down a rabbit hole like that to see the light a little and then choose to reject it once they're comfortable again. Hopefully he does get into IC and they will be able to keep challenging him until he gets it.

I hope the best for you but I really doubt you "de-programmed" him. I still recommend you see a divorce attorney and protect you, your kids, your finances.

As for him buying a place and living apart, he forgets that this is not the relationship you want. What about your future, you may meet a real alpha male and want to be in a new relationship.

If you haven't already, call in your support squad. You need it right now.

I really admire you. I can tell you are an intelligent and strong person. My situation is different in that my husband had a run of the mill EA/PA, but it was similar in that I never realized he was suffering from such low self-esteem. Who would have thought a single spinster coming on to him would have been so flattering? And in your husband's case, who would have thought there was room inside of him not filled up with self-love to be filled with this ridiculous drivel?

Now that your husband seems to have decided, unilaterally again, that everything is hunky dory between you two, you can see that he's still just as entitled and self-absorbed. Where is the concern for the wife he has traumatized with his horrible statements? If you choose to remain in this marriage, IC for him is a must. He has to address his low self-esteem and empathy.

I have been talking to my friends and they are all giving me the same advice as all you wonderful people.

The thing is, I may have changed his mind about certain aspects of the red pill stuff but he is a different person now. He still won’t put on his wedding ring. He still insists that he loves and went on and on about how smart I am, what a great mother, how pretty, how strong, blah, blah, blah, but he said he is just not “in lust” with me anymore—I take that to mean he no longer finds me sexually attractive. He said we are too used to each other and too comfortable with each other to be exciting. He said everything is exactly the same about our relationship except that. He said his MLC was a wake up call and it is leading him to be a better man and he doesn’t regret it for a minute. The MLC has actually made him happier than when he was “just” a family man without big dreams and a deeper insight into who he really is, so he says.

I don’t think counseling for him can change anything but it is worth trying. And he said he will go. Of course I have to make the appointment and everything, which I’m happy to do. But I still believe this marriage is basically over. People change, I guess. It’s just so so so devastating. I am still the same person.

I know this is a brand new trauma, and I get that you are still in shock. But if at all possible, stop talking to him or listening to him or trying to get him to snap out of this. He has his wedding ring off! Do the 180! Your mind and heart have not caught up with the horrible, disrespectful things he is saying. When they do, you are going to be very angry and not in love with this jerk. Get offended, not sad!

It is hard to resist talking some sense into him, but try. We call it the Pick Me dance here, and it is highly ineffective at winning a WS back into the M. Their ego is so high when they decide to step out that trying to win them back makes them feel like they do not need the M. They think, "People are fighting to keep me! I have amazing options!" Uh, no. You are no longer an option for him. Please 180 him and start focusing on you and your kids. Get angry instead of sad. His disrespect and absurd egomania is disgusting. Ignore him and 180. Hard.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:55 PM, June 16th (Sunday)]

I wish I hadn't done so much for my husband in the beginning. He "couldn't figure out" how to unfriend the OW on FB. He "couldn't" get a therapist to call him back for months. And I was all, "Have you tried this? Have you tried that? Do you need me to do it?" I wish I had just been like, "Well, you're an adult. I'm sure you can figure this out." It doesn't mean much if he's not the driving force behind it.

Making appointments for husbands is something married people do. I think this situation calls for not acting like you're married to him since he's made it clear that he's no longer bound by that notion. If he wants to stay married to you, then he can do it on your terms or not at all.

This is what your reality is

1. He no longer desires you

2. He is going to have sex with other women

3. You ruined his life by marrying him when he was too young.

4. He will stay as your roommate.

5. You are too old.

Please see a lawyer.

He still won’t put on his wedding ring. He still insists that he loves and went on and on about how smart I am, what a great mother, how pretty, how strong, blah, blah, blah, but he said he is just not “in lust” with me anymore—I take that to mean he no longer finds me sexually attractive. He said we are too used to each other and too comfortable with each other to be exciting. He said everything is exactly the same about our relationship except that. He said his MLC was a wake up call and it is leading him to be a better man and he doesn’t regret it for a minute. The MLC has actually made him happier than when he was “just” a family man without big dreams and a deeper insight into who he really is, so he says.

Agreed with OIN... you'll find more information about the 180 in The Healing Library (yellow box, upper left).

At this point, he's still recalcitrant and I would probably follow through on seeing an attorney and filing for divorce. Right now, he's privy to all your thoughts and he either doesn't think you'll follow through or doesn't care if you do. TBH, I never put out an ultimatum I'm not willing to back up. So, if you file... mean it.

This guy is going to have to break completely from his delusions. If he doesn't, he's not worth having anyway. He needs to be chasing you down and praying he can stop you from dumping him, not sitting around like he's Lord of the Manor making insulting pronouncements regarding your sexual attractiveness. (And believe me, if he doesn't appreciate what you have to offer, there are better men who most certainly will. It's EASY to find examples in the Separation/Divorce forum or in New Beginnings of women who have jettisoned a loser and found someone else who treats them like a princess.)

Oh, and he could spit in one hand and wish in the other before I'd play the part of his personal secretary and schedule his IC appointments. Taking that initiative tells you whether he's willing to WORK or not. The guy is in the process of renegging on the vows he made to you to love, honor, and cherish in faithfulness, but he still thinks he should have access to a fully functional wife-appliance??? Yeah, I'd nope out on all of that. He'd be doing his own laundry, cooking his own meals, etc.

On a side note... I know you're probably still reeling from shock and surprise, but have you actually sat down and spent some time thinking about what it might really be like to be free of him? You said earlier that he was a really nice guy before all this, but was he really? Sometimes, I think we either gravitate to either mostly good memories or mostly bad when we're confronted by trauma. It might be worth the time to do a bit of a gut check to decide what it is that YOU really want. Sometimes, when we're caught off guard like this, the kneejerk reaction is to return to status quo... but was that good enough for you. Were you truly happy with it?

((hugs))

ETA: I just wanted to say that I think most of us try to take a really measured response, one that takes the high road and allows some dignity for the WS (just in case they pull their heads out of their hindquarters). But honestly, if you wanted to bag up his shit in Hefty bags and put him out of your bedroom, or send links to his mom and sisters explaining exactly what the Red Pill doctrine is all about.... I just couldn't blame you a bit. Sometimes I think that the WS counts on us to be the stable, sane one and really just doesn't believe we might fuck them up. /end rant

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 6:02 PM, June 16th (Sunday)]

He looked at me incredulously and said, “Um, I’m an alpha male

Sami, others may have pointed this out already, but men who insist they are alphas are usually going through some serious self-esteem issues. This is a classic mid-life crises where he feels he is worthless and wants to feel good by spouting the alpha crap.

I was trying to convince him to change, see reason, telling him I would work on/improve myself .

You don't need to improve yourself. He does. he is the problem here, not you.

Monogamy is a false, unnatural state of being designed to put men on a lower status and protect women’s interests at the expense of true maleness.

I shouldn't laugh, but this somehow brings to mind the image of a Chihuahua barking.

I really don't get some men's obsession with the concept of alpha males!! We are not a pack of animals. This whole red pill thing is rather pathetic. I have seen a few supporters of red pill post, and I feel sorry for how lacking in self esteem they would be to need such crap.

A true male revolution would break the stereotypes and allow males to be unique human beings who are entitled to experience their own wide array of emotions, not stuffed into someone else's bizarre definition of machismo. The first clue to the utter ridiculousness of the "red pill" argument... is the need to demean any man who doesn't agree with them as "beta". These are just the re-wraped bullies from middle school, stuffing other boys into into their lockers or giving them "swirlies" at any hint of original thinking or nonconformity. TBH, I'm truly shocked that there's an audience for this sort of drivel here in the 21st century.

Well said ChamomileTea.

Sami, you may save the marriage, but it may never be a relationship. People with integrity and confidence will not be drawn to red pill. He has something lacking, he has a desire to cheat, and he wants to use red pill ideas to justify it. He may let go of red pill but if what is driving those desires is not addressed, he will be a prime candidate for cheating. Make sure you understand what you are choosing.

180 HARD!!

Let him figure out how to set up an appointment with a therapist. He is a "red pill alpha male" that can handle all of his own shit!

Do not do his laundry - Alpha male can do that!

Do not cook for him.

Do not share a bed with him, He can sleep on the couch or spare bedroom.

Do not make any appointments for him.

Do:

Ignore any of his attempts at conversation. Short yes or no answers are the best, or reverse the question, as in " That is interesting, what are you going to do about it?" whenever he has a problem that his red pill alpha male self can't seem to figure out.

See a lawyer(s).

Get tested for STDs, just in case.

Sami this is so sad.

Speaking to him man to man, I would say brother you are thinking with your little head right now and that little head is about to F up the best thing that's ever happened to you.

Trust me you're going to regret this and you better wake up REAL quick as it already may be too late.

Are you so shallow and confused that sticking your pecker into some strange woman is your driving force and what's going to motivate you on a daily basis?

PISSING the best thing that's ever happened to you (wife & family) to get your rocks off?

You're not an alpha.....you're a dog...an animal. Pretty soon, just like the Prodigal son, you're going to wake up in pig slop and you'll give ANYTHING if you could go home.

The Prodigal son's father welcomed him home (and ran to him) with open arms. Yours more than likely is about to hand you divorce papers on the way out the door.

You're going to fuck up the 98% of everything that's good in your life for the 2% that you're restless and confused about?

An alpha is intelligent....you are a dumb ass!!

Sami, I agree 150% with Totallydumb above. You need to stop engaging now— he cannot absorb what you’re saying in a meaningful way. Disengage in ALL ways, particularly in caring for him. Do NOT make his therapy appointment (let him know he should plan to do that on his own, and do not engage when he argues or says he won’t). When it’s possible, start doing things with your children without him that you’d normally do as a family.

And, most importantly, see an attorney and file for divorce. If there’s any chance of saving your marriage— and YOU may decide there’s not— you need to shock the shit out of him (pardon my language). If you’ve read around here much you’ll know there’s a saying “you have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it.” I hated this sentiment when I was new here, but it’s true. Many of our WS’s have needed to be faced with the reality of being handed divorce papers in order to be shaken out of the fog. Your WS’s fog is different, but a twisted fog nonetheless. Play hardball, and quickly. I know it feels like your soul is being crushed and I know the physical ache your heart is feeling, but time is truly of the essence. Before he can F this up even worse and say more horrific things, or act on his lust (so gross), force him the look at— really look at—what his life would be post-divorce. His reaction after that will tell you every thing you need to know about his being salvageable, or not.

Big, huge, F him and this red pill bullshit, hugs.

He still won’t put on his wedding ring. He still insists that he loves and went on and on about how smart I am, what a great mother, how pretty, how strong, blah, blah, blah, but he said he is just not “in lust” with me anymore—I take that to mean he no longer finds me sexually attractive. He said we are too used to each other and too comfortable with each other to be exciting. He said everything is exactly the same about our relationship except that.

Then basically, nothing’s changed - your marathon talk changed nothing about his mindset, he’s just offering it up in a prettier box for you now so you stop saying scary words like “divorce”. He told you from the start that he was fine with doing the whole marriage “thing”, except for the pesky sexual monogamy. That’s exactly what he’s laying out here, still - he’s good with everything, but wants to get his sexual needs met elsewhere because he’s decided you can’t fulfill them.

Don’t make the mistake of giving him more leeway or accepting this crap just because he’s now switched to paying you compliments and lip service while he basically tries to convince you that you’re inadequate instead of the “look, I’m an alpha and this is how it is, take it or leave it” BS he came out of the gate with. He’s changed tactics because that obviously didn’t work.

Again - same shit sandwich, different wrapper. Don’t fall for it. 180. Stop listening to him justify his ridiculousness.

So many on here are at a loss at what to do with a WS who is

fence sitting, cake-eating, ignoring boundaries, still seeing and/or contacting the other person, etc...

Many BS's are urged to go No Contact with their WS after ALL ELSE has failed.

This 180 list may help.

--------------------------

For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or

implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage.

4. Do not follow him/her around the house.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future.

6. Do not ask for help from family members.

7. Do not ask for reassurances.

8. Do not buy gifts.

9. Do not schedule dates together.

10. Do not spy on spouse.

11. Do not say "I Love You".

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on

hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).

21. Never lose your cool.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.

23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).

28. Be strong and confident.

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest

CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

2 things to think about if you do this:

1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.

2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing

Hey Sami. Lately I've been wondering if Monogamy or non monogamy is something you are born as. Kinda like being gay. For some people is easy (me) and for others (my partner) hella hard.

I’m starting to wonder if HE is now fatally flawed and not worth the effort I’m putting in to save us.

Maybe this red pill bullshit (and we all agree the red pill theory is bullshit) is his way of justifying the fact that he can't be monogamous. And he is telling you he can't be monogamous in very clear terms. Maybe he is not flawed, its just the red pill theory thinking that's the flaw.

And someone who is monogamous will not be happily married to someone who is not monogamous. Would a lesbian be happy married to a man?

I think Stronger makes a good point. I think your WH wanted to cheat first and found support for that in The Red Pill.

The reason I think that is because he is so opposed to divorce. If he was really so into The Red Pill philosophy, he wouldn't want to stay married. He is cherry picking what he wants out of both The Red Pill and marriage.

I also agree with TotallyDumb's advice. Stop doing anything for him. He needs to see what losing you looks like and feels like.

I’m sorry you are going through this, what a horrible situation to be put in. My advice would be to respond don’t react, take what time you need for you to come to your own decision. My husband is 14 years younger than me and it’s a fear that lives in the back of my mind that one day he will decide he missed out. Keep sharing and talking until you are sure about what you want. Sending you positive vibes and love.

I’ve been reading this thread and shaking my head at your husbands behavior. He is delusional. I also looked up this red pill crap. Apparently a politician started it. I don’t know that I would call it a cult but it resembles one in many ways. Either way, it’s utter bull. It’s no different than being in the kkk , isis or being a skin head or any other extremist organization. It’s being sexist to the extreme.

I have been trying to put myself in your shoes and see what my reaction would be. To be honest he sounds like he has lost his marbles. I agree that it isn’t your problem to fix him. I cannot fathom my husband saying what your husband has said to you, to me. I don’t think I would ever get past any of that.

I think in your shoes, I would have to cut my losses and get out while you still have your sanity. His rhetoric would grate on my nerves until I couldn’t stand it anymore.

he said he is just not “in lust” with me anymore—I take that to mean he no longer finds me sexually attractive.

I know you've said that you don't think he's already cheated on you, but I really find it hard to believe that his loss of sexual attraction could have any other cause than he went and got some on the side. Maybe he's not actively out with another woman right now, but my money is on that he DID cheat on you, got some strange, maybe got dumped, and now he wants to get more of that.

I'm so sorry your WH is such an asshole!