SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Say for the sake of the argument WS is bisexual. Have they figured the right to any friends?

So, I do agree that the WS should try and expand their life. Self-actualization if you have read a lot about it is how we become whole. Making stable relationships in which we have emotional support and provide emotional support is super important.

However, I agree with oldtruck, I think that when you cheat you to preclude yourself from having opposite sex friends. At least those who are not mutual to you as a couple.

This question you asked, the answer seems clear enough to me. I have always considered myself to be bi. I don't know if you looked at a spectrum I tend to believe I lean more straight and have preferred relationships with men even if I can have sexual feelings towards women.

I think maybe if I had cheated with a woman, there would be more of an emphasis. I have casual work mates and friends that are lesbians. However, if I suddenly started to want to spend a lot of one on one time with a lesbian friend I do think that my H could have felt threatened in that way. So, I am thinking if your wife is bi, and I know that was hypothetical, there could be some female friendships that raise a flag the same as a male friendship, especially in the case you didn't know this person well.

I also think there is a barometer there as to how much time and effort your spouse is putting into this other person. I tend to think that while I did develop and grow friendships since my affair, my primary focus was still on my marriage. At 3 years out I think that was appropriate and needed.

So, maybe it's more measurable in where the other person's priority lies and how much of their life is an open book to you. Each couple has to decide and navigate that for themselves.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:10 AM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

it was really nice not having to deal with her or talk to her for a few days.

This is interesting. Have you thought more about this and why?

I had a similar epiphany about my WW.

I actually enjoy her company, but after her affair when I'd go on regular business trips I found myself enjoying being away from her as equally if not more.

This is interesting. Have you thought more about this and why?

I had a similar epiphany about my WW.

I actually enjoy her company, but after her affair when I'd go on regular business trips I found myself enjoying being away from her as equally if not more.

It's basically a constant mental effort to be in limbo. Even though she is good at the material efforts, I'm faced with my WW as the unsafe part of my life. She is the reminder that she is unsafe.

It's basically a constant mental effort to be in limbo. Even though she is good at the material efforts, I'm faced with my WW as the unsafe part of my life. She is the reminder that she is unsafe.

It's exactly as OIN said. Limbo comes with its own set of hurts and frustrations no matter how detached you may think you are.

I do think your IC has a good suggestion about a trial separation. Can you go live somewhere else for a few weeks? Friends, family, or an air bnb?

I'd like to say too that we do see limbo/not in R a lot here and I think that BSes tend to get many things wrong about it. I see BSes who turn to limbo as a long term solution to their problems with thoughts like, "If I'm not trying to R or D, I can't be hurt by what my WS is or is not doing." And yet we have people here who have been in limbo for YEARS who still post angry rants frequently about what their WS is or is not doing. Very few people reach contentment in limbo and have completely let go of caring about the WS. Some of the people who tried found themselves holding D papers from their WS or needing to separate because of a new ongoing A. It's very very difficult to detach emotionally from someone you live with and secretly wish to change. It's even more difficult to continue a marriage in which you've completely detached involving a person who believes in seeking comfort from others as a solution to their problems. Most people, cheater or not, don't want to be in a long term marriage in which their spouse is detached and acting like a roommate. The faster you hit "meh" and can find solace in being alone, the better.

Doesn't seem to have much of ROI for your life.

The day my XW's mask slipped (after I became aware) was the day I considered her to be a bomb, it may not explode and devastate my life today, but it WILL explode one day and on her terms.

Chamberlain tried to live with an unsafe neighbor for the sake of domestic tranquility, look at the mess it made in history....

An interesting topic title. I would point out to you that you do not really have a marriage. Such a union requires trust, respect and love between spouses. Your wayward offers you none of these three conditions.

The only difference in my mind is I don't have to deal with mind movies of them actually fucking and him blowing loads inside her. I don't envy that struggle at all.

Once a woman gives herself emotionally to another man she has already given herself completely. You haven't dodged a bullet. What do you think your wife would have done if she had the opportunity to get together with the AP?

fucking and him blowing loads inside her.

I think I have love. Respect, hard to say yes to.

I would urge you to rethink this. Love, trust, respect are all tied together. If you are missing one, none of the others is possible. If your wife loved you she wouldn't be seeking fulfillment elsewhere in any form. She does not respect you. If she did she would not have strayed from the marriage.

Your wife isn't any different from a gambler, alcoholic or drug user. The hunger for the forbidden will always be under the surface. You are passive. You are remaining in the marriage because it is comfortable. Your complacency ultimately benefits her, not you. You provide the stability she requires. Excitement she seeks elsewhere.

I communicate my emotions to my WW, she just doesn't really care when she hurts me a little here or there.

If she loved you she would care when she hurts you.

She has basically told me that her autonomy, job, etc. are things she doesn't want to lose and completely cut off. Basically she has told me she will not do what I have asked.

She neither respects you nor loves you.

If one day one of the two of us wakes up: her deciding that my feelings are important enough for her to alter her behavior,

You my friend will wait till the end of time and still she will not alter her behavior.

Not sure what you expect to hear that will motivate you into action. There is only one person that can save you, you. Your wife doesn't respect you much less love you. I have doubts that she ever did. If you are waiting for her to betray you and get physical with another man it is merely a question of when, not if. Your wife has already shown you who she really is, believe her.

All the best regardless what you choose to do.

it was really nice not having to deal with her or talk to her for a few days.

Sometimes this is way of rug-sweeping - being out of sight allows you to go back into denial. Sometimes this relief is a sign you would prefer to D. Sometimes it's just the relief that comes with knowing there are fewer people you have to take into account when you choose when, where, and what to eat, when to go to sleep, etc.

Of course, if you're traveling for business, you have to live within business constraints - but even that is easier than living within both business and family constraints....

IDK, This0is0Fine, I think you're hoping to be able to figure out how to make your W change. I don't know if that's ever succeeded. I believe no one changes unless they want to.

Chamberlain tried to live with an unsafe neighbor for the sake of domestic tranquility, look at the mess it made in history....

On many levels, this is actually not a bad analogy. The same set of toxic behaviors: Gaslighting, minimizing, blameshifting, scapegoating, rationalizing, DARVO, even pushing for rugsweeping after the war -- all coming from a nation and directed at other nations and other peoples. Makes sense, since it's all human behavior.

I was feeling very down for a variety of reasons through the end of last week. I had a big fuck up at work that was largely my fault. My kid's remote school is going badly. Much worse than I thought, and I didn't know until last week. They apparently have two different platforms to turn assignments in on, and he was doing less than half the assignments.

WW has been good at keeping her calm through this and has taken the lead on making sure he does better in school (he is doing remote work from home now instead of in the program we had him in that obviously wasn't working). I really appreciate this. It's solid A+ parenting. I could tell she was upset about her/our lack of oversight of our kid before. So I got her some flowers and made one of her favorite dinners to show some appreciation.

Now, all that said, I smartly avoided drinking alcohol at this time, since I know that can make me spiral. But WW could tell I wasn't happy at all. I told her she had some share in what was getting me down, that work, and kids were larger contributing factors. I didn't sugar coat it. She said she would try to get me the male equivalent of flowers and a nice dinner. She did jack shit.

Now, as some of you all may recall. I (stupidly?) have kept a good mutual friend that was also a WW in my close social circle. She was 100% there for me and was gently persistent in offering time to just soak in her hot tub (by myself) or go on a hike. I told WW about all this, none of it is secret.

I said it seemed a little weird that I would go on a long hike with our friend. WW basically insisted that I ought to go with our friend on the hike. I tried to point out it seemed a little weird and potentially a boundary issue with our friend's husband. This apparently didn't compute at all for either of them, which is in itself concerning. Why should our friend be the one comforting me emotionally instead of WW?

Anyway, I decided to go on the hike. It was a very nice hike (good weather, 8 mile round trip, 2000 ft elevation gain). Nothing unusual or out of the ordinary happened. We talked a little about life, struggles with COVID, work, kids, and things she could do to make her husband feel more secure as a BS. It wasn't until this chat that she realized she was spending ~4 hours one-on-one with another dude because I pointed it out. I came back from the hike feeling much better about life.

The whole thing though is continuing to strike me as a little off. Yes I feel better, but shouldn't WW be the one who made me feel better?

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 1:13 PM, November 2nd (Monday)]

Your wifes friend is a cheater but a good person in other ways , your wife is also a cheater but also seems like a good person . She wants you to see her for what she is through the prism of a similar woman ; one who you arent angry or hurt with . I dont see anything sinister about the hiking trip unless the friends husband was not on board

I think you and your wife both like the idea of not truly responding to the affair and just chalking it down to “people do dumb things and then people move on “

If you want to forgive her and it really seems like you do there is NOTHING wrong with that but you have to be able to enforce some boundaries - without that its all a house of cards .

In answer to your last question, yes, and if she can't... why?

I do think you should think carefully about spending time with this other WW and why her BS husband would even think that was ok for him. It seems all too sophisticated by half and the cave man inside me would be freaking out.

She said she would try

This seems like a summary of the whole gory history with your WW's aborted attempt to go all in with a PA.

-She said she would try to think about maybe getting another job until she didn't

-She said she would try to think about maybe going NC until she didn't

-She said she would try to maybe do something nice for you until she didn't

The beatings will continue until the morale improves.

Your wifes friend is a cheater but a good person in other ways , your wife is also a cheater but also seems like a good person . She wants you to see her for what she is through the prism of a similar woman ; one who you arent angry or hurt with.

That sort of makes sense. I think WW does the direct comparison a lot more than I do. Could be part of the motivation.

I dont see anything sinister about the hiking trip unless the friends husband was not on board

Sure, he was on board. He trusts me probably more than he trusts his wife, haha. It wasn't sinister. Totally 100% above boards. It just seems weird, like I said.

I think you and your wife both like the idea of not truly responding to the affair and just chalking it down to “people do dumb things and then people move on “

If you want to forgive her and it really seems like you do there is NOTHING wrong with that but you have to be able to enforce some boundaries - without that its all a house of cards .

Phase 1, forgiving the past, I have done. The issue really is my failure to enforce boundaries AFTER the A ended.

IMO, your WW "set you up" with her WW friend in hopes you'll cheat and become just like her.

Look, do what you wanna do. You want to go with the flow. Your WW has ideas about where the flow should go. You can get a backbone and make your own decisions, or go with the flow that others control.

IMO, your WW "set you up" with her WW friend in hopes you'll cheat and become just like her.

Look, do what you wanna do. You want to go with the flow. Your WW has ideas about where the flow should go. You can get a backbone and make your own decisions, or go with the flow that others control.

Haha, this was definitely not a setup. If anything, my anxious brain thought this might be a designed move to get me out of the house for a long period of time under surveillance to make sure I didn't come home early. No reason to believe that is true, but that is where my worries would lie.

I have brought up this friend before and other people have automatically read into it that she was trying to wedge herself between me and WW, or that there could be some other untoward dynamic there. I assure you there is nothing there.

Your wife seems to have a circle around her including her sister that endorse or tacitly support cheating on their husbands.

If my SIL was a cheater, she knows I'd probably tell her to go do something anatomically impossible with herself. And we'd probably never speak again.

What gives?

Is it a bunch of sophisticates who think they know better than thousands of years of human history or what?

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:04 PM, November 2nd (Monday)]

Your wife seems to have a circle around her including her sister that endorse or tacitly support cheating on their husbands.

No doubt about it, this caused many fights early on, though at this point all cheaters have been exposed. All the A's have apparently ended.

If my SIL was a cheater, she knows I'd probably tell her to go do something anatomically impossible with herself. And we'd probably never speak again.

What gives?

I mean, how long did you stick it out with your wife? If cheating isn't a dealbreaker in your M, how could it be a dealbreaker for a friend or family member?

My wife is the "least" bad among the pack. This is a common minimization strategy on my WW's part. "I didn't have an LTA. I didn't have sex. I didn't send nude pictures."

Me: "Ok, but you lied to me, deceived me, and betrayed me, soooo.... I don't really give a shit that your friends betrayed their husbands worse." If anything it makes me trust her less.

Is it a bunch of sophisticates who think they know better than thousands of years of human history or what?

Something like that.

All the A's have apparently ended.

For the time being.

Boy, what a shitshow and it makes me wonder how often this is going on. Too much valorization of female infidelity in bestselling books and pop culture now. If women only knew the truth of the toxic fallout, far more would avoid and never chuckle about it.

My wife is the "least" bad among the pack. This is a common minimization strategy on my WW's part. "I didn't have an LTA. I didn't have sex. I didn't send nude pictures."

Wow. OK. Trying not to be too angry on your behalf bc I know you don't respond to that well. I know life has more in store for you than this. I will be thinking and praying about this. You are worth a lot more than this.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:31 PM, November 2nd (Monday)]

WW has been good at keeping her calm through this and has taken the lead on making sure he does better in school (he is doing remote work from home now instead of in the program we had him in that obviously wasn't working). I really appreciate this. It's solid A+ parenting. I could tell she was upset about her/our lack of oversight of our kid before. So I got her some flowers and made one of her favorite dinners to show some appreciation.

I just did my dog favorite head tilt when I read this....

Exactly what in hades are you thinking? You kiss her posterior while places (choose your phallic euphemism ) into your posterior.

She tells you "to suck it up", and she is "the least bad of her social circle", when are you going to find your self-respect? What happened to you to make you believe you are worth so little?

Btw A+ parents do not have affairs...

I brought up the possibility of a trial separation. I didn't say I wanted one, but that it was a potential way to feel things out with some space. My WW is open to the idea and is willing to give me time if I ask for it. She says she doesn't want to be a barrier to my happiness. On the one hand she is being very understanding. On the other I kind of wish she would fight it. I'm not entirely certain what I was looking for in that conversation.

We kinda went round and back with the negative feelings and my not feeling appreciated enough. We talked for a long time about all the instances I found disappointing. I told her I'm not trying to be overly critical and mentioned some of the good things she did as well. She was supportive, and actually did something nice and out of the ordinary for me the next day (not just offer and not follow up). IDK if we bottomed out and are on the way back up, but things are feeling pretty good right now.