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I gave her the divorce letter.

That must have been excruciating. I’m sorry TIF.

I hope your WW starts to snap her head around and quick. If she doesn’t, don’t doubt yourself for a second. Sending strength.

I gave her the divorce letter.

The pain/fear you feel now whichever direction YOU CHOOSE will be far less than the pain you would have felt by allowing her to choose the course of your life.

You drive your boat/life now, you are worthy....

[This message edited by blahblahblahe at 10:50 AM, November 7th (Saturday)]

That had to be really tough This0Is0Fine.

BUT, you did what you had to do. Between her:

1. Not quitting her job

2. Staying in contact with OM, even to the point of scheduling a coffee date

3. Keeping her wayward friends as her circle

4. Talking disrespectfully about you to at least one of her friends i.e., the you were a lost puppy comment--this after you did all you could to save her mother

5. Her "taking on" another male friend...

6. ...who happens to be friends with OM.

it is pretty clear that she is not a safe partner and clearly has no intentions to become one. I can imagine though that this still has to really hurt, you probably put up with all this hoping that she might have woken up and see the light. So sending you strength...

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:04 PM, November 7th (Saturday)]

Nail on the head won't be fooled.

Idk what is actually going to happen. She did not agree to a divorce yet (I know she doesn't have to agree). I told her all the things she has done to hurt me. What she could do to fix it. I told her she can't be resigning because I told her to. She has to do it because she understands she is hurting me and just shouldn't want to keep doing that.

We are taking at least a short break. We need to figure out a real and mutually understood path to reconciliation or we need to figure out the terms of divorce.

The answer to the question in the thread is that it is not sustainable. I'm worn the hell out.

Of course, you are exhausted being married to someone who doesn't care about you.

If she didn't fall to her knees immediately begging forgiveness then she isn't worth your time.

Take a rest bit from the knowledge that you are getting yourself out of this situation. I have a suspicion there are a lot of better options out there for you.

TIF

I told her all the things she has done to hurt me. What she could do to fix it. I told her she can't be resigning because I told her to. She has to do it because she understands she is hurting me and just shouldn't want to keep doing that.

She is not stupid. She knows exactly what she has done and continues to do.

She has no intention of resigning and that is NOT the main problem now. There are many cases where for financial or other reasons WS cannot quit job. Not that it would not be preferable if you can afford it.

The elephant in the room is this wife of yours not only will not stop communicating with him but actually set up another date with him. What can her explanation possibly be for that???

And given she did that and still talks to him at will how on earth do you ever believe she will not still do that even if he works somewhere else or she does.

SHE WILL NOT GIVE HIM UP

That is pretty simple and makes anything else minor.

She could have resolved this and reconciled because you have given her that chance. SHE CHOOSES TO not do that.

And that backs you into a corner where you either suck it up or leave. She has given you no choice.

I don't know what she will or won't do. I do know that after I gave her the letter she said she wanted to stay friends with AP's friend and have a "polite" work relationship with AP where "nothing will ever happen". The next day she said she would give it all up, that I'm obviously the choice how could she give me up and her family up for nothing. I just asked that back to her. You tell me. Seriously, she has been making that decision for nearly a year. I told her it's not good enough backed against the wall. I told her I'm done being the one trying to start a virtuous cycle of positive interactions.

We are taking a week apart to get our own feelings straight outside the influence of the other to see if we have a path to reconciliation or not. After that, I guess I make yet another thread in R or D forums. Not in general. Maybe a new signature.

Maybe everything I did was "the pick me dance writ large". I'm done.

TIF

I do know that after I gave her the letter she said she wanted to stay friends with AP's friend and have a "polite" work relationship with AP where "nothing will ever happen".

Any explanation as to WHY this is so important to her. The reason you need to hammer away at this is making her explain why having ANY relationship with either of them needs to be acceptable to you. The fact that this was the first thing out of her mouth when you present her with a possible divorce letter is mind boggling.

The next day she said she would give it all up, that I'm obviously the choice how could she give me up and her family up for nothing

Until she really believes that statement, which she has no reason to yet, all it means is temporarily you have scared her.

My guess is her girlfriend will tell her to just pacify you.

Yes you have played the pick me game, but it appears you are not now. Any path to reconciliation on YOUR part should include VERIFIAABLE (polygraph) test in the future that there has been total NC. And if they travel together again after then is the time to do it.

And you need to understand WHY and in what capacity she would even need to interact with him at work. You may know but I must have missed it in your threads.

I think we all see a lot of disrespect on this forum, from banging OM/OW in your bed or home to serial cheating. But the total disrespect that she has shown you in not only refusing NC with him but flaunting it in your face is beyond the pale. And the fact that she will now look at you as the bad guy for "forcing" this is to me the most troubling thing you face in trying to get through this.

SHE DOES NOT GET IT AL ALL.

Well she has a week to get it. Maybe she will. Maybe she'll give up. She does care about me (if not actually being considerate in her general decision making) and could decide the best way to make me happy is to let me leave. Which is what it is. Doesn't really matter the motivation I guess.

What you’re seeing is you’re getting strong and now she’s reacting. I agree with BR, she’s probably thinking thru how to pacify you given her initial reaction that she STILL wants to stay in contact with this man. Faced with divorce she tried to see if she could still have her cake. Astonishing.

Up until now she could count on you to back down and she could simply push the envelope to get what she wanted. So now she’s mouthing the right words with her vocal chord amd tongue but the actions must back up those words.

If she wants to keep you, she will turn in her resignation tomorrow.

Sending strength. Stay frosty.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:59 AM, November 9th (Monday)]

She does care about me (if not actually being considerate in her general decision making) and could decide the best way to make me happy is to let me leave.

She may genuinely care about you but doesn’t respect you the way she should. A marriage doesn’t work without respect.

This blatant ongoing disrespect is something I’ve struggled with mightily and what has made me conclude I’ll be generally happier or at least more at peace not having to be in this situation.

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:18 PM, November 8th (Sunday)]

It’s been a while for me. I’ll take a chance and post. You probably are thinking, oh not steve again.

But what the hell, I’m a glutton for punishment and i still think you are worth it.

So what’s your feeling this time. Is this truly it? Do you feel you truly mean it? Can you say what you need and not back down until you see it?

I can’t remember what was in your D letter. I’ll have to go back and try and find if you told us.

But I’ll assume it’s what you need to see to stay and work on rebuilding.

But here is the deal, you’ll only achieve a happy life, with or without her, if you stick to it. No negotiation. If she tries to say a few months from now, “well can’t I just text with the friend if I include you?” You can’t agree to it. You can tell her “yes, but not with me in your life.” And that’s how it needs to be. Forever.

She’s proven untrustworthy. And only by proving she’s safe, by the choices she makes the rest of your lives together, will the relationship work for you. The goal should make you feel like doubt doesn’t have a place in your marriage. She should want to squash doubt at every opportunity.

So those are the things you should demand if she wants you to stay in your life. And if she can’t do it, then she’s given you the opportunity to move on. She’s made it plain, and you shouldn’t look back.

As you said, she needs to do it that way because that’s what she wants for you and her and the relationship and the family. She has to want it badly.

If she has to think about it, then that’s fine, but let her know while she’s thinking, you’ll be starting the process. Because you don’t want a partner who “has to think about” if her husband is the one and only whom she considers when deciding who’s most important to have in her life. And if she cannot show you that you are her first thru tenth priority and everyone follows after that, then you don’t have anything to work with.

If that’s the case, and you choose to stay, then you know the answer, your left with an unsatisfying life. You only get one (IMO). I know these are the most difficult decisions for anyone to make. But time to put on the big boy pants, as you appear to have done, and start to make them.

Stay strong. Whichever way it goes, it will be worth it.

It’s been a while for me. I’ll take a chance and post. You probably are thinking, oh not steve again.

But what the hell, I’m a glutton for punishment and i still think you are worth it.

So what’s your feeling this time. Is this truly it? Do you feel you truly mean it? Can you say what you need and not back down until you see it?

Yes. Divorce is currently the most likely outcome. I didn't ask for it when I planned it, but it has gone further downhill since then.

I can’t remember what was in your D letter. I’ll have to go back and try and find if you told us.

I haven't published it widely. The letter is more touchy feely. Says I don't trust her, and don't think I will. We should get divorced.

What we talked about afterwards was that she needs to find a path to me trusting her, because what she is doing isn't working, it's hurting me.

I reiterated that I had asked many times for her to change jobs but she never tries when she isn't backed against the wall. As soon as she has room to breathe, she walks it back.

But I’ll assume it’s what you need to see to stay and work on rebuilding.

The letter was not intended to fix anything. It was intended to point out the hopelessness of trying any longer. Before I gave it to her she told me to just say I don't trust her and give up. So I did. What promulgated this was asking her to write out her boundaries with APs friend, how it won't turn into being in AP's social circle, and why it was important to her. She only gave me broad verbal reassurances.

But here is the deal, you’ll only achieve a happy life, with or without her, if you stick to it. No negotiation. If she tries to say a few months from now, “well can’t I just text with the friend if I include you?” You can’t agree to it. You can tell her “yes, but not with me in your life.” And that’s how it needs to be. Forever.

I don't need to make this boundary. She has to figure out how to get medieval on her own ass if she wants any hope of stopping the machinations of divorce.

She’s proven untrustworthy. And only by proving she’s safe, by the choices she makes the rest of your lives together, will the relationship work for you. The goal should make you feel like doubt doesn’t have a place in your marriage. She should want to squash doubt at every opportunity.

Hard agree.

So those are the things you should demand if she wants you to stay in your life. And if she can’t do it, then she’s given you the opportunity to move on. She’s made it plain, and you shouldn’t look back.

That's where you're wrong. I've made my demands before. I'm made my boundaries before. She blew through them and I caved. She needs to FIGURE IT THE FUCK OUT NOW and tell me this without me coaching her. I'm done doing the heavy lifting.

As you said, she needs to do it that way because that’s what she wants for you and her and the relationship and the family. She has to want it badly.

If she has to think about it, then that’s fine, but let her know while she’s thinking, you’ll be starting the process. Because you don’t want a partner who “has to think about” if her husband is the one and only whom she considers when deciding who’s most important to have in her life. And if she cannot show you that you are her first thru tenth priority and everyone follows after that, then you don’t have anything to work with.

If that’s the case, and you choose to stay, then you know the answer, your left with an unsatisfying life. You only get one (IMO). I know these are the most difficult decisions for anyone to make. But time to put on the big boy pants, as you appear to have done, and start to make them.

Stay strong. Whichever way it goes, it will be worth it.

Thanks.

Thanks for responding. I understand better.

Says I don't trust her, and don't think I will. We should get divorced.

I truly think we are saying the same thing. Here is may be the only difference between what you and I see. It’s my opinion. Perhaps you agree: Now that you have said it, you need to do it. You need to start the process.

What she does is now superfluous. If she’s gonna do it, we both agree, she needs to do it on her own. And until she does it, all of it, whatever it is, to completion, then you have nothing else to discuss.

Take action for you, since u have no control over what she does.

Maybe you think, duh, that’s what I’ve been saying. Sorry if I’m slow on the uptake.

I still wish you strength as you follow the path you are on.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 5:34 AM, November 9th (Monday)]

Dude. You can totally say you want a divorce. And I’m the one that stayed because of money (cheaper to keep him).

For no reason.

You don’t owe her shit. She screwed the pooch once she cheated.

If it’s not good for you, DTMFA. It’s ok. You don’t need to trial anything, unless *you* want to. It’s on her to fix this. She destroyed it.

I’m allowed to tell my husband I don’t want him to eat chickpeas, or I will divorce him. This is like at will employment. You do not need just cause. Even though she already gave you just cause.

And I’m reading that she’s even arguing about wanting to have opposite gender friends? If my WH told me that, I’d totally Dread Pirate Roberts his ass into a pig farm.

Choices. She has them. So do you. If you don’t want to be married to a woman with dude friends, that’s your right. And it’s her right to tell you to bugger off. Choices.

As Queen Beyoncé says, “To the left, to the left. Everything you own is in a box to the left.”

She should be scared that she can’t trust herself with men. This is where she should be. She should be questioning her own brain, because it’s not right and she chose poorly before.

Full disclosure. I don’t trust my husband at all. Never will. He has proven that he thinks with his dick when things get hard (ha!). Trust is overrated, and last time I trusted, I was stupid and wrong. There will be no more trust. Only consequences. That part that was trusting was like the limerance in an affair relationship. Not real. Limerance is what you seek. Let that die.

Go pragmatic on her ass. What’s in it for you? Ask her what is in this for you. Then stop talking. See what she says. Make it like RuPaul, “Lip Sync for your Life.” And see what she does.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 4:49 PM, November 10th (Tuesday)]

Just traded places on our week long, give each person time to think about the divorce and if we really want it period.

Had a very long talk, very hard to summarize to be perfectly honest.

The goal is to find a credible path to reconciliation by her setting boundaries. She did set hard and specific boundaries she was willing to follow, but was not really happy about it. She didn't get that she should WANT to stop hurting me and WANT to establish boundaries.

I told her to hold on to that and tell me again with a clear mind and genuinely mean it because she has always rolled things back. We'll just have to wait and see.

All you need to be clear on ( and i think you are actually very clear on this ) is that either she needs to get it completely and build a new pattern of behavior - or she needs to get a lawyer . i hope she can find some clarity too and soon because it sounds like you might be close to done .

I feel very sorry for your wife, its very hard to be the daughter of a mother who committed suicide . I think she may simply not have the bandwidth to be in a healthy relationship right now . She may need a while to just find health inside her own head first . Not the first person to turn to thrill seeking to manage pain

[This message edited by siracha at 8:09 PM, November 10th (Tuesday)]

That part that was trusting was like the limerance in an affair relationship.

3yrsout, on the money! I don't like some things that are not how I wish they were, but I can sure as hell accept what is as what it is. Once you realize that who you could most trust, ever, in the world, becomes the one that you can least trust, you realize one of two things:

1. No one can be trusted

2.......or, you realize you cannot trust yourself to know where the unicorns are that you can trust. So defaulting to no trust seems the smartest route.

Both sad, and comedically tragic, at the same time.

[This message edited by DIFM at 9:45 AM, November 12th, 2020 (Thursday)]

The goal is to find a credible path to reconciliation by her setting boundaries. She did set hard and specific boundaries she was willing to follow, but was not really happy about it. She didn't get that she should WANT to stop hurting me and WANT to establish boundaries.

I told her to hold on to that and tell me again with a clear mind and genuinely mean it because she has always rolled things back. We'll just have to wait and see.

I find this update to be extremely concerning This0Is0Fine. It sounds to me that you are on the verge of caving again.

You and she already agreed to things before, several times actually, and what ended up happening each and every time. She decided not to do the things she agreed upon after all, disrespecting you in the process, and you ended up swallowing that.

Things she is willing to do but not really happy about? Seriously? Before you can even be CONSIDERING R, your WW has to be willing to fight for the marriage much much harder than she is right now.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:23 PM, November 12th (Thursday)]

She did set hard and specific boundaries she was willing to follow, but was not really happy about it. She didn't get that she should WANT to stop hurting me and WANT to establish boundaries.

This shows she doesn't quite get it yet. It is still about her and her feelings.