SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi ChangeMaker

This is EXACTLY how I felt about my wife, but I added my intellectual and emotional superiority to the list too.

Agreed, I will add it to my list

ImGoneByTheDown, what is it that you are looking for here at SI? I've been going through your posts and I just can't seem to figure it out.

A polygraph on her own initiative? Are you kidding me? How did she know what questions to ask herself? How do you know she chose a reputable examiner? Would you share the results with us?

This bend in your story is really out of left field as is your much softened position toward your WW. No one sets up their own polygraph - no one. And you seem so relieved about the "didn't screw" that I can see you going the reconciliation route before the end of the month. That's all well and good if that's what you want - no one here really wants to push you to go against what you decide to do. But maybe it's time to admit that you came to this site to get people to convince you that dumping her after a simple ONS was way too harsh. That anyone can make a mistake and your poor wife was likely the victim of a player.

The fact is you would not be living in the same house as your WW if you didn't plan on reconciling with her. You sure wouldn't accept some bullshit polygraph that she brought you as proof she only blew him. You want to rage against fate and are angry that you have to face the fact that your wife went behind your back and whored it up with some dude. Here's what you do - just swallow all of your feelings and go to her. Tell her you love her and accept that what she did wasn't all that bad and you are sorry for putting her through so much agony. Beg her to give you another chance - I'm pretty sure she will.

Good luck.

You sure wouldn't accept some bullshit polygraph that she brought you as proof she only blew him. You want to rage against fate and are angry that you have to face the fact that your wife went behind your back and whored it up with some dude. Here's what you do - just swallow all of your feelings and go to her. Tell her you love her and accept that what she did wasn't all that bad and you are sorry for putting her through so much agony. Beg her to give you another chance - I'm pretty sure she will.

That rant was very uncalled for and not helpful at all.

IGBTD- Unforgiveness....Whether you decide to D or R, will only hurt you. I am not saying that from a religious standpoint, just from a human standpoint. Un-forgiveness of someone who has hurt you, keeps them hurting you day after day. The pain is there and it is fresh, day after day, then it eventually turns into bitterness which is just Aged Un-forgiveness. Forgiveness is not really for the forgiven, it is way more for the forgiver. Nobody wants to drag a dead body around with them day after day, letting it rot, and stink, and decay. I am by no means saying you shouldn't divorce her, but I also feel that if you are this resolved to 'be done' with her, then forgiving her would be the best thing for YOU. Best wishes to you!

‘ImGoneByTheDown’

I’ve read through most of the thread and just wanted to show my support again for your direction. I think that you’re making good choices and I admire your commitment to stand by your decision.

“To sum it up, reconciliation with a cheater is delusion and wishful thinking.”

I agree. I think, as I’m sure that you do also, that there are likely some cheaters who truly are remorseful and who’ve been so affected by the slap of reality that they suddenly leave their delusion of entitlement and become truly humble. The problem is, how can a BS truly know that their WS has made this transformation?

There are many examples on this forum and in my own experience where BS’s thought that there was a transformation only to experience D-Day 2 and 3 and 4. Because there is no way to truly know the WS’s mind, most hopeful BS’s end up watching in case the WS slips back into their entitled state of mind. I consider that a miserable way to live life; constantly following up after someone in order that I know if they cheat again. No thank you.

“but now I'm concentrating on my happiness which does not include her anymore in my life.”

That’s what we all must do. We must focus on our own healing and happiness. The WS was supposed to be an adult. They chose their path. Let them take responsibility for themselves.

“You see I did first hand what cheaters normally try to do at the end when it's too late. I went NC and when I saw it was not enough I left my job. Having worked on myself prior to the possibilty of cheating, this is why I'm sure I will not cheat after working on myself to prevent cheating. My wife didn't do it and cut all ties with them afterwards. I told her I don't like them, she didn't want to hear what I was saying then, now she's getting what she asked and was looking for. Justice is served”

I had many opportunities to cheat over the years and every time I chose NC. There are many of us who have boundaries in place and we choose before anything happens. I’ve never had a time, even when tipsy, that I allowed another woman to get sexual with me. An A is not a mistake, or a temporary lack of judgement, or anything that is out of a person’s control, it is a conscious choice no matter how you slice it.

“She blew another man; that's over. As I told here many times "think before you act; actions have consequences". I told her this too and she knew what I think about it. She reaps now what she's cultivated over time. Anyway, it's not my business to fix her; she's a grown up woman and must come to that on her own”

Again, I agree with you. She chose her path. She knew what she was doing and what the consequences might be. She now must decide what morals she’ll adopt for the remainder of her life. She can choose to grow from this or she can choose to continue to be a whore. In any case, you can’t decide for her.

I've dumped two remorseful cheaters and two unremorseful. I'm currently three and a half years into successful R with a remorseful FWW.

Brother, do what's right for you. Take the advice you want/need and leave the rest.

Strength

I'm sorry that you've had that many cheaters on your hands '5454real'. I hope your R works out. And thanks for the good advice.

yearsofpain25

Wow, I find your post informative, least to say. Actually, even very enlightening as there are not only a lot of elements I can I can take and use approaching divorce but also because it reaffirm a few things I found out and was thinking to do when the wheels of divorce will be set in motion. Anyway, I haven't mention and written about it, because it quite an unconventional approach to infidelity and how to cope with it. I have less read it in professional publication but have seen posters talking about it in different forums. I think it is a valid observation and actually found you talking about it just in different ways and maybe terminology.

More specifically, I'm talking about the usual division that is made into forgiveness and reconciliation. Meaning that if you reconcile it means that by definition you give your spouse a second chance, stay married and under the same roof. However, you and other have pointed to another option that I think is correct. Namely, that this process is threefold.

1. Forgiveness (does not requires you to stay)

2. Reconciling at a certain level (which you call parental)

3. Reconciliation that means giving the cheater and marriage a second chance and stay together

I want to say the following. I know for sure that one day I'll forgive my wife. I have a lot of negative emotions towards her from anger, resentment, bitterness and many more but I don't think hate is so striking. In fact, not as my wife but a human being I can feel some basic empathy to her suffering and love. For sure, for me it has zero reflection on my decision on divorce. Yet, I do think I want and will forgive her.

The next thing is the possibility to reconcile without maintaining the relationship and after divorce. This is harder for me but I think that under certain circumstances, with certain boundaries and means of protection from her I could think about such an option. It could be possible and I think I have to spend some reflection on it. It would nean that we would maintain more contact, see each other more and so on. I haven't thought about it, but I will do it for sure as for the children as you say that's important.

The last is what normally understood as reconciliation which means to stay together and giving the cheater and the marriage another chance. This is not an option for me. It won't happen. As I said the marriage and the relationship was done the moment she got naked in front of another man, was physically intimate with him and the fact whether she had intercourse or not is irrelevant for me. As I said once that happened it was all over , it's done and I'm. Yet, I do think you've hit the nail and are completely right about the two first option. I know how to deal with the first one, but would appreciate to hear your advice on the second one

Thanks

I think you heard what I was saying but read into it more than it was and added some extra. Which is fine if that's what you are looking to do.

In posting with you I have deliberately avoided a few topics like D vs. R but maybe I should acknowledge them just for a second. I have avoided them because I see no point as you were absolutely clear. D is the only path for you. Not going to debate it, just acknowledging because I don't think the conversation needs to go in any other direction than what's going to happen when you D.

D is not a simple way out. D comes with it's own consequences on the family unit. That's ok. I'm not a "stay together for the kids" type. I'm the opposite because of what happened in my house growing up when my father tried to stay together for us kids. Toxic toxic toxic environment ensued that caused way more damage on us as a family than good. Fighting, tension, and resentment ruled the house. In fact it got so toxic that no one noticed that my brother was suicidal until he was gone. With my mother's A, my father doing the "pick me" dance for 5 years, everyone including myself was wrapped up in their own bullshit. Until BANG. Death of my brother at age 17 and the final nail in the coffin that was my family. We all went out separate ways and now later in life I'm the one holding the emotional bag of dicks.

Not that shit would get that bad in your house but with your WW wrapped up in herself trying to prove herself to you and you so wrapped up in trying to get away, where does that leave your kids? THAT is the angle I'm coming from. Don't lost sight of them and be in such a rush to D that you end up stepping on a landmine and have your own BANG of sorts.

So back to D as the focal point as to what's going on with the family unit. You and WW are going separate ways soon. Start getting used to what that is going to look like. Plan for it now.

What bothers me most is to lose my children, my daughters and my son due to alienation. If she'll do this to me it will literally kill me and she knows this. It is not something that is relevant right now but in my opinion she does not cope well with what happens and I fear that in the future she might take revenge on me in form of alienating me from the kids.

So start planing now. You are still in a position where you can get most of the day to day details regarding the kids hammered out before you are both not living together and the pressure and strain of communication become that much stronger. If she's showing you good will right now, use that to your advantage while you can. Start to plan for who is going to get what holidays, the day to day pick up stuff, living arrangements, paying off debt. Most importantly talk with your WW about getting the kids into IC asap so that a child psychologist can help you plan and confront behavioral issues THAT ARE going to appear as a consequence of an instable environment. That's the point is to make sure that the both of you together try and make the transition into the new way of life is as sable as possible with the kids adjusting as needed.

Have the talk of future relationships re the kids even if she's not ready. The sooner the better. Not that a relationship is going to happen over night but start planting the seeds of what this is going to look like. Decide on some ground rules together. Use the time that you have with her in the house to discuss. Soon that time will be gone.

I say these things based on families that I have talked to here that are in all sorts of statuses from D to R and everything in between. Slow down and take a look around you and assess the battle field. Triage the wounded. Assess the situation again before charging across the battlefield where you hit a BANG. D is what's happening so treat the D.

As far as forgiveness goes, if that is something you personally feel the need to do, go for it. But it's not a prerequisite for the above steps. Check out this book if you have the time. It's a short read. How Can I Forgive You?: The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not To by Janis Spring. This book was recommended to me by a very wise person around here. It was empowering for me to realize I didn't have to forgive. I'm working towards indifference. Right now you seem very very far from indifference with the amount of anger and pain that you are in. That is completely normal. But as part of D you should be working at not letting your WW get so much head space. Let go of her as much as you can. This will get easier once you both no longer live together.

Bottom line:

1. Work together with WW on the kids. Do so now while the opportunity is there and communication is more open than it will be.

2. Making life altering decisions should not be rushed. Slow down and asses the situation more. Adapt as the situation changes. Your family and kids are going to need to be triaged as the consequences of D unfold. Get the kids into IC with a child psychologist asap to minimize the damage.

3. Do not allow WW to occupy so much head space. Detach and get used to the fact that you will not be interacting with her much in the future outside of the kids. That there will be other relationships for you both and you are going to need to be ok with seeing her in a new relationship (let that concept sink in). In other words, get more comfortable in the "I can't be bothered" with what's going on in WW's world except for the kids (and finances).

I respect the decision of D. D is not necessarily the easy way out. In many ways D can be much harder. Some pain is avoided by D and other pain is brought in by D. There are no right or wrong decisions. Only choices. Plan accordingly based on those choices.

You can do this. Get working WITH WW on those kids.

yop

eta - fix quote

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 4:01 PM, October 20th (Tuesday)]

Hi Imgone,

Question, is your wife following the ex-president Clinton rule? Oral is not sex?

She seems to think she did nothing wrong.

Hold your ground and never falter.!!

IGBTD, you have some of the most riveting posts I have ever seen on the JFO forum. Plus the ensuing conversation and this entire thread is extremely helpful (for the most part).

You have hit a nerve with me, as I am sure you have with lots of BS's. I agree with much of what you say, especially regarding the inherent improbability of waywards ever actually changing. Before my D-Day and its aftermath, I believed that people could fundamentally change. Through my experience and the study of human nature during my past year, I no longer believe this to be true. If someone can carry out such a despicable act of betrayal, then that core trait of disloyalty will most likely always live inside them. Whether another betrayal occurs probably just depends on circumstances.

Despite the fact that I agree with most of your opinions, I made a different decision than you. I stayed, and most likely will continue to stay so long as my WW's actions remain consistent with a remorseful WS. (Even though I believe she will always be tempted to be disloyal if the circumstances align, based on what I state above about the unchanging nature of people). I stayed and am staying for one reason: my children. I've just read too much about the harmful effects of divorce on children. If my WW can be remorseful in practice and action, then I choose to do this for my children. Besides some angry outbursts by me at the beginning of my nightmare, we have maintained a peaceful, loving home. This is what I have chosen to do for my kids. But everyone has their decision to make in their own situation. Strength to you.

Well,

I must say I am at the point of wondering how you have managed to keep off the roller coaster of extremes: One day being certain of divorce, the next considering the possibility of R.

Sorry for the tangent but immediately after Dday, I was 100% sure I was going to divorce POSWH. I even left. He sgot shocked out of the fog into reality and out of his accord, booked himself into IC and demonstrated that he was into working on himself. Irregardless of that, I have not decided that I am going the route of R, actually I'm still in limbo but leaning towards pro-D concerning him.

I agree with you that it is not the fact that they are remorseful, it is the fact that that he had his dick in another, and premeditated all that. He asked how he could it make it up to me. Truth is, he can't. The only way to make it up to me is to undo it and since he can't, then he can never ever make it up.

What has mostly held me back from D is the fact that even here on SI, I have seen BSs that D, only to end up with another cheater. I cannot predict future behaviour so I cant predict I wont end up with another cheater if I D. Hell, POSWH is the last man on earth I would have expected to cheat. But it is refreshing to read firsthand of men who have a lifestyle of not cheating and put boundaries in place way before crossing the lines.

Sorry for that t/j, let me relate that to your situation. As with SG, Timetoreact and others that have a clear stance on which way to go and follow through with it, I must say your thread have been somewhat a renewed source of strength for BSs here (and I dare to say they are many) who know that cheating is a definite dealbreaker for them but hold off for whatever reasons.

Just a thought: If all BSs had a zero tolerance to infidelity, and WSs knew there would be zero chance of getting back together, maybe there would be a lot lower No. of Waywards?

Imgone, you said it could take a while for your D to be final, but have you already actually filed for D? If yes, how has your wife reacted to that?

[This message edited by StabbedBride at 1:07 AM, October 21st (Wednesday)]

StabbedBride

I haven't actually spent time thinking about it unless you asked me now. I think it's probably because it was natural and is ingrained in me. However, I don't think there is one single reason for this but a combination of a few of them.

Maybe the less obvious is as to the roller coster of emotions and the ability to work with. Now, on the one side my spiritual path puts a great importance on working on our mind and emotions (by the way one can do this without religion or being a highly spiritual person), while on the other side I had a lot of pain and suffering in life to test the practice (which means me being open and vulnerable to her did not stop her to inflict the greatest pain and suffering on me).

So having learned how to break apart just only to stand up, put the dust away and learning to rebuild myself into a better version, it's not that it prevents the devastation and the specific roller coaster but gives you the tools to cope better and stay on focus. Those are simply some technical issues that I suppose helped me in an sos manner, but the devastation is here and I am sure I will need a lot of help especially IC and stuff like that further dow the road. Anyway, that's me and I am sure other poeple do the same things differently and in their own ways.

Another thing this is probably my personality. As long as I can remember myself faithfulness was extremely important to me. I always joked that I wanted it to be written on my grave that I was always faithful. On top of that and this is part of my attitudes in relationships as regard to integrity, I'm not willing to stoop down to lower standards but expect my equal to go up and meet mines. For me faithfulness together with honesty, dignity and integrity is not only important in romantic and marital relationships but a highly spiritual value that covers every aspect of life. For me, being unfaithful to my wife means lacking integrity and being untruthful with others. Thus living with a cheater would be a lie and inauthentic which is in my opinion not conducive to my happiness. So, if you combine both of them, you have the values, the morality, the atitude and some of the coping mechanism. I won't go more into this as I don't want it to be to long

SB, you mentioned the fear of ending up again with a cheater. Many say that those poeple who chose divorce actually chose the easier path to run away in order to avoid uncertainty and other things. I can so relate to your statement. However, no one can escape uncertainty, simply because it's inevitable feature of reality and our existence. Nothing in our world is certain. Haven't you and me as BSs learned that on our skin the most painful way? What poeple that decide to divorce do is giving up on the additional spin off uncertainty with living with a proven cheater. For me, this is more appealing. Anyway, I know that I'll have to decide what to do in that sense. My tendency is to give up on any relationships in that trust is gone for me, not because I believe that there's any kind of love at all, but because I don't believe romantic love is real and exist. Most probably it's attachment not love.

You also mentioned zero tolerance and this is correct. If everyone had zero tolerance there would be less cheating and it would be less rampant. Yet, as you know, we can't control others. That's impossible. You also asked me about the divorce procedures and my wife's reaction. Well, where I live there are several steps you undergo until you actually aply and divorce is finalised. I had already undertaken the steps before the actual application is filed. The thing is that in the benefith of everyone, espcially the kids but her as well, I want this to be in aggreement and through mediation. I will give it a two to three months a try to reach it; if not I will continue the process with the usual procedures. I have already contacted lawyers.

My wife's reaction seems to be the next big problem. I think she does not cope well with the situation. I think she somehow refuses to accept reality that we ARE GETTING DIVORCED and instead of working with me on it she believes she could save the marriage so she constantly tries to push new rabbits of the hat and put me under pressure to stop divorce and to consider reconciliation. She says stuff like that to work with me on the divorce would mean she doesn't love me (blowing other man's dick proved it already), that it would mean she gave up on me (taking her cloths of for another man, she did it already), that she doesn't want anything from me but only me (which in light of her actions and situation is both stupid, childish and manipulative). My fear is that under those conditions when reality of divorce sinks in her that she can become revengeful. My biggest fears are being falsely accused of domestic violence and further being alienated from my kids. I however am not going to stay with her because of thos fears yet I do want to go slower so that she can slowly accept the reality of divorce and we can do it as less as hostile as possible. I want also to ask her to counselling to better cope with the divorce

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 3:43 AM, October 21st (Wednesday)]

Imgone,

Thank you for the response, appreciated.

I am glad to read that you have at least tried to think things out in advance and is planning towards dealing with expected possible outcome/reactions. True that we can only control ourselves. Some BSs get betrayed when the marriage-boat is sailing through some rough waters, but still there are BSs who get blindsided while the boat is in the calmest waters possible, when they have their fishing rods out, happily fishing and enjoying the sun. The only person we can control is ourselves, and hence the scariest thing about marriage.

You are behaving quite graciously towards your WW, we commend you for that too. It is not easy being gracious to someone who knife-d you in the back.

I cant help pitying your WW but as we all know, actions beget consequences.

All the best, keep us posted. SI community is here to support each other through the whole infidelity shit-storm.

[This message edited by StabbedBride at 5:50 AM, October 21st (Wednesday)]

My wife's reaction seems to be the next big problem. I think she does not cope well with the situation. I think she somehow refuses to accept reality that we ARE GETTING DIVORCED and instead of working with me on it she believes she could save the marriage so she constantly tries to push new rabbits of the hat and put me under pressure to stop divorce and to consider reconciliation. She says stuff like that to work with me on the divorce would mean she doesn't love me (blowing other man's dick proved it already), that it would mean she gave up on me (taking her cloths of for another man, she did it already), that she doesn't want anything from me but only me (which in light of her actions and situation is both stupid, childish and manipulative). My fear is that under those conditions when reality of divorce sinks in her that she can become revengeful. My biggest fears are being falsely accused of domestic violence and further being alienated from my kids. I however am not going to stay with her because of thos fears yet I do want to go slower so that she can slowly accept the reality of divorce and we can do it as less as hostile as possible. I want also to ask her to counselling to better cope with the divorce

Try telling her that you appreciate her trying to fight for the marriage, but from your side there is nothing to fight for. That you are done but that you do want to work with her in other ways. Be polite but persistent and direct in what you say. Let her know that you want to work with her now regarding the kids and that they should be the focal point of making as easy a transition that you can TOGETHER. That is she really means what she says in that she is changing and becoming a more authentic person, then this is one way that she can show respect for the family. That the relationship is over and the kids are going to need as much help as possible. Ask her about getting the kids into IC. Start looking for a good child psychologist. Let her know that you are going to talk to their school counselors so that they can keep an eye on the kids for any behavioral issues and to help prevent grades from slipping. The school counselors will also be able to recommend child psychologists as they work with them on issues like this all the time. Several members here have done that when getting a D or when their kids knew about the A.

Talk to your wife about being as pragmatic as you both can be for the long term. Start ironing out the details with visitation and daily activity, etc... Constantly reinforce this is the one area that you can work together and minimize the damage on the kids.

I want also to ask her to counselling to better cope with the divorce

Excellent. The sooner the better. A counselor should also be able to give you good recommendations for a good child psych.

My fear is that under those conditions when reality of divorce sinks in her that she can become revengeful. My biggest fears are being falsely accused of domestic violence and further being alienated from my kids.

So consistently mention, being polite and direct, that you have to work TOGETHER with the kids. That you are both going to have to let family members and friends know that you are getting a D. That family members and friends can help with the kids and keep the transition issues down to a minimum by helping provide stability. On a side note for you, the more that know about the D and what's going on the harder it will be for her to be revengeful as she will only continue to make herself look worse. I'm guessing that she's already scared shitless about how she's going to look. You can use that to your advantage to make things as amicable for the kids as possible.

No matter which way you turn with infidelity it's a shit sandwich and everyone has to take a bite. It's really too bad that no one realizes how far that consequences from infidelity reach until it's too late and the consequences hit them in the face. Try to minimize those D path consequences on the kids by being proactive with your stbx.

You might also want to be proactive and start to move over the S/D forum with those who have BTDT. They may be able to help answer questions more directly. Especially with the kids where they may be a few years down the road and can tell you what to look for if you have questions. You will also see people sometimes post in that forum about some of those behavioral issues with kids that you may (or may not) run into.

yop