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Well done Saveus. You are learning to take the control back. You also saw when push came to shove she didn't want to end things with you.

Now you can stand up and say these are my expectations. Keep pushing her toward getting off the fence.

Now that you have some sort of positive response do not assume all will go smoothly. Please make sure you see a solicitor sooner than later.

Please remember that the words that come out of her mouth are meaningless. Actions are the only thing you can believe.

((((and strength))))

Thanks for the updated saveus. Good for you that you were able to stand you ground, but as you indicated the battle isn't over yet. I can't add much more than the others above haven't already said. There is still so much more ground for you to cover and knock her off that fence.

While you are out... do you know if she's has had OM around your child in the past? Is it a concern that she could have OM over while you are out?

And definitely what william said. He nailed it in that post. Out the A to family members and get their assistance if you are going to have a chance here. She's still in the A. She is still not choosing the M because of that fact. It's all still there. She didn't go over to AP's place, but mentally she was there even if physically she was at your place.

Time to get rough my friend. As william said, keep pushing the consequences of her affair into her face. Let her see those consequences. You will start to feel stronger each time as you take control.

I see a much stronger Saveus but....

During your evening of conversation she took the path that allowed her to keep both of you hanging:

a) If she left then she would only have OM becuase you had made it clear that if she left then you would separate

b) If she stayed she kept you AND the OM. She can smooth the waters with him later by saying that her horrible husband had forced her to stay.

So what did she do?

You need to give her a date by which she has to swing one way or 'tuther

But you do seem much stronger. But she's still playing you

If your anywhere near Kent and want to have a beer sometime let me know.

[This message edited by mozzchops at 10:58 AM, May 8th (Thursday)]

@JDuff: Right now, full transparency is just not going to happen - though maybe all the while she's on the fence she thinks, 'why bother?'.

@william: I agree that her 'choice' was just to do nothing/keep us both hanging. I get the tactic of making her think her life with me is already lost. No, the OM doesn't have a partner (other than my WW ). As for exposing the A - I completely agree that they thrive in the dark but I have my own reservations (about motives/not being able to take it back/affecting future relationships should my WW & I ever truly reconcile). That said, I have now told my parents (when I thought she was leaving me yesterday) though my WW doesn't yet know that (her reaction will probably be to hit the roof and claim she's going). Interesting you suggest visiting a lawyer together. Think that's a first. Most people have suggested clueing myself up but NOT telling my WW. I wonder what others here think? I don't THINK the OM has been in our house though anything is possible. As for my social plans, it's a risk I have to take, isn't it?

@UKGirl: Not sure I've thanked you for your input. Thanks. Re exposing the A, her mum & dad know but only what I knew on D-Day 1, i.e. it was a 3/4 month EA but only one night of sex (oh, hang on, I did tell her mum about the texts I found on D-Day 2, so I think she does know it was more than one night). I plan on telling my WW exactly what you said later - that the kindest way is to kill the A fast. As for the OM's history, well, three divorces, that about says it. All the exes' faults, of course (my WW seems intent on believing everything he ever told her, e.g. he hasn't had sex in years, he's had a vasectomy etc).

@FrmrBH80124: Thank you but I don't feel that great about myself just yet, the way today's gone (my WW acting like everything's back to normal).

@tushnurse: Thanks. I don't believe she wants to leave me but she told me herself that she 'can't' leave the OM either. It's really nice to have your 16 year relationship/7 year marriage judged 'equal' by the one you love to a 3/4 month sordid affair.

@yearsofpain25: Absolutely he's been around my boy. That's how we know him, through the kids. As I said to william, yes it's a concern she could have him over while I'm out but what on earth can I do about that?? How do you fully 180 if you can't let your WS out of your sight??? (Plans tonight may be off now anyway - friend says might be better for him another day)

@allatsea: You're absolutely right but ultimatums have always struck me as a bad idea - generally. What does everyone else think of this?

[This message edited by saveus at 11:18 AM, May 8th (Thursday)]

keep telling her you are sorry that she has made the choice to be with the other man and that her choice of "her secrets, her affairs, her lies, and her cheating" over you, your family, your child, your marriage, and your relationship has consequences. one of those consequences is losing her family, the marriage, the relationship, and the lifestyle she has become accustomed to.

By the way, william, I used these words many times last night & will keep it up. Thanks.

@mozzchops: Thanks Actually, not that far away. We have holidayed in Kent many times, funnily enough.

Think that's a first. Most people have suggested clueing myself up but NOT telling my WW. I wonder what others here think?

Absolutely see a lawyer for a consultation whether you file now, soon, or never. Too many times did someone here think they should wait until filing or that they could have an amicable divorce without lawyers only to be screwed over by their WS who convinced them not to file, not to see lawyers yet, and went behind their back to make sure they got everything. It's sick to think that some of these WS were parents who just screwed over their own children to get a little more money or benefits.

You're absolutely right but ultimatums have always struck me as a bad idea - generally. What does everyone else think of this?

It might be necessary and pushing your WW off the fence and on to R OR you will get your answer once and for all that she is choosing OM over your M. If you think living in limbo and watching her talk, flirt, and go on dates with him while still married to you is worse than getting a D, an ultimatum would help you more than hurt you. Do it when you're ready but keep in mind what others have said - the longer you wait, the less likely R is going to be.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 11:23 AM, May 8th (Thursday)]

Thanks nekonamida. I am IN NO WAY in the mood to wait. The way my WW is today, you'd think she doesn't have a care in the world.

Not too sure you want to have a joint visit to a lawyer since such will,essentially disqualify the lawyer should any divorce become contested. She's not even out of the affair so she isn't going to agree to a divorce as long as she's comfortable sitting on the fence.

You should talk to a lawyer privately so you know your rights and responsibilities which will give you negotiating power should divorce occur.

She doesn't need to know that you have consulted. I am a lawyer in the US, and the first thing I told such joint "\clients" was that I would not represent either of them if there was even a hint of differing interests which there ALWAYS is in a divorce sooner or later.

She won't believe a word from any lawyer you have chosen, anyway, so the chances of her getting a push off the fence that way are small. This isn't from personal,experience, but rather from 30+ years on the other side of the desk.

BTW, damn good work in your recent encounter. Even if her head is still up her ass, she'd have to be wholly dense to not see that yours is on top of your neck held high where it

belongs.

Damn iPad keys have me hitting too many commas. Sorry.

Thanks Schadenfreude. Excellent advice and makes perfect sense. That decides that then. Appreciate the encouragement but I feel like it was but a small step.

Saveus,

Great work so far. Despite our tough talk we all know those first steps out are so extremely hard to take so the progress you made yesterday is immense!

I’m pressed for time so I want to address only a couple of issues:

Yes – exposure MIGHT make future reconciliation harder. BUT… Exposure is still your best tool to make reconciliation a possibility. To refer back to my burning house analogy: Worrying about the future effects of exposure is like banning the firemen from entering the house unless they take off their boots because you worry the hardwood floors will get damaged.

Just expose on the right grounds: You expose to stakeholders in the marriage and to people that might have positive effects on your wife. You ask these people to help in making your wife see the mistake she is making, but also ask them not to push her away.

About yesterday.

Look – If someone punches you in the face but then says sorry, then punches you again but says sorry and promises never to do it again, then punches you again… What carries more weight? The punches or the promises and excuses? How often do you just stand there before you decide it’s a good idea to get out of the reach of those punches?

Yesterday your WW punched you repeatedly, excused herself repeatedly and then punched you again repeatedly. You – like a good fighter – just took the punches. That was OK yesterday but for today – get out of her reach.

Until and unless she very clearly and verbally commits to the marriage on her own free will… You move on.

Make that clear to her: She has to commit. That means no more pining for OM in front of you.

Until and unless she does the above… YOU keep on getting your info on how to progress with ending the marriage. No drama, no swooning and moaning. Just a determined purpose to your actions. Make this clear to her – not repeatedly – but make it clear she is totally free to do what she wants, but until and unless she verbally commits… you are out of here.

About clueing up…

The BS mantra has been, is and will always be:

Pray for sun – prepare for rain.

It’s better to have knowledge of your situation that you might not need rather than not knowing what you need to know.

Given how early your D-Day is and how your WW is doing everything she can in the book (the handbook all cheaters manage to read) to make you doubt yourself and accept her cake eating, it looks like no small step to me, Saveus. You've come quite a long way in a very short, delicate amount of time all while facing hell and that shows how strong you are in taking this step forward. Even in a situation like yours, it's a step people have so much trouble taking this early on. It's a step worth its weight in gold.

The way my WW is today, you'd think she doesn't have a care in the world.

So stop letting her not have a care. Keep pushing her off the fence. Let her know that her actions have consequences. Let her know that your parents know. Start asking her consequence type questions. When would be a good time for her to start IC/MC sessions? What time tonight would be a good time to start drafting an NC letter? What time tonight are you going to give me your passwords? Of course she's not going to answer these questions but keep pointing out to her every time she says no, say that since

she has made the choice to be with the other man and that her choice of "her secrets, her affairs, her lies, and her cheating" over you, your family, your child, your marriage, and your relationship has consequences. one of those consequences is losing her family, the marriage, the relationship, and the lifestyle she has become accustomed to.

Nothing less than answers to your questions are acceptable. She chooses to stay, she has to choose to meet the needs of the family. Otherwise, you press on to dissolve the M.

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 11:53 AM, May 8th (Thursday)]

Exposure - Yup she will go ballistic. My H in the early days said it would make it an "untenable" situation. Too F'ing bad. I needed love and support in real life, and he wasn't helping me.

Ultimately the people I told, my parents, his mom, and our best friends, were all quite good with us R'ing, why? Because he removed his head from his ass, and did the work. Had he not done that it would have been a different outcome.

Lawyer - NO WAY on a joint trip to an attorney. Go don't tell her you are going, get educated. Do this so you can make smart decisions. Then when you feel you have had enough and do ultimately lay down the ultimatum me or him, you can say my Lawyer says I will get XYZ, and then she will realize that it is very real to you, and you are prepared to move forward, WITHOUT her.

Ultimatums - Your right it's hard to give them, and generally are a bad idea, but you have certain things in life that are OK, and are NOT OK. We live by certain rules, and our spouses having lovers is one of those rules where there really is NO wiggle room.

She needs to know that you are NOT going to allow her to have both. (Personally I wouldn't make this ultimatum until I see a lawyer).

I struggled for months, and knew my H was cheating, but I had NO proof. So that gave me time to get things in order, so when I finally did have proof, I could say stay or leave, but if you stay you have to X Y Z, and if you don't I'm done, and you will be going anyway.

Actions have to meet consequences before the fog really clears. For my situation it was ultimately the continued breaking of NC that was the big decision maker.

You are still very early on in this, and it takes a while for your head to stop spinning and to find your footing again. But I see you getting clearer, and stronger.

((((and strength))))

@Bigger: On exposure, I get it but my WW is quite the most defensive person I've ever known. It just needs some thought & not to be too hasty. I like the bit about no more pining for the OM. Will keep in mind tonight.

@nekonamida: Much appreciated. I'm trying my best.

@yearsofpain25: Pushing my WW off that fence is my goal for this evening. She's in full evasion mode. She just tried to snuggle up to me & I made it clear I wasn't having it (and made clear my reasons). Telling her my parents know will certainly provoke a response, that much I promise you.

@tushnurse: Great stuff. Your H's initial comments on exposure sound very familiar. I've been aware I've been manipulated on this - but it's only been my own reasons (detailed earlier) that have made me battle on alone, with only my WW (and her mum) to talk to. At the same time I thought it absolutely stinks that my WW can do the lowest thing possible to me yet go on without any repercussions, other than the ones she chose herself (e.g. telling her mum).

[This message edited by saveus at 12:17 PM, May 8th (Thursday)]

The way my WW is today, you'd think she doesn't have a care in the world.

She does not have a care in the world, because she is deep in the fog of the affair, a fantasy world that to her seems perfectly normal.

Though this is worse than usual since most fog is cleared once the affair has been discovered.

You need to make it clear that there are consequences and one of them is that other people are going to know about this. If she wanted it kept a secret, I guess it is too late for that now.

Ultimatums are tough if they cannot be carried out. It is best not to make any unless you fully intend to carry through with them.

If it were me, I would see a lawyer right now and alone, not with her. In a sense, you can't think of her as your wife because you cannot trust her. Anything a lawyer tells you and your wife could go straight to the OM.

Most likely everything you say goes to the OM anyway, so keep that in mind.

Stay strong, which is not at all easy.

@craig2001: Thanks. Good point about stuff being repeated to the OM. For example, I know he now knows I have copies of every message - and PICTURE - he sent my WW, though it that case that can't be a bad thing

Saveus you wrote "...but ultimatums have always struck me as a bad idea - generally".

But you gave her an ultimatum, if you leave to go see him we are done.

You put your foot down, as much as it was a sort of half ultimatum because she's so foggy she actually sees the lame excuses she's giving you as valid.

OM is sick, she is torn, she is confused. As Abonddad said, you allowed her to steer you in this direction, so now she didn't leave but she hasn't broken it off either.

Again, don't issue a threat if you can't carry it out. Have you talked to OM? A man that can text another man's wife to come over while he's sitting next to her has got major b*lls.