SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

20yrsin,

I know that you would like to save your marriage, even if it's a bit of a struggle to do it, so I was wondering about an alternative to:

“I will book a mediator appointment for August 1st to draw up a separation agreement. If she hasn't got herself out of that office by then, somehow, that will be the consequence. She will have made her choice.”

What if you give her until 1 August to be out of that company and city, and if she isn't out and does not resign, you solve the problem by contacting HR with details of the affair, and your wife and the OM are then out of the office whether they like it or not?

I'm just thinking that doing that would create an intermediate stage between her not leaving that office and separation. I know that contradicts your feelings, which were basically "job vs. marriage", and I suppose there could be arguments to be made about, "If she won't leave voluntarily, she has made her choice, so forcing her out is a bit pointless", but I thought I would suggest it anyway, as an option you can consider or reject.

Maybe others will have a view, based on their experiences? I apologise if it's a dumb idea.

MI1965

Not a dumb idea but would fall on the side of:

"If she won't leave voluntarily, she has made her choice, so forcing her out is a bit pointless"

20yrsin has already done most of the heavy lifting in this R. Doing what you suggest would just be another example of that.

And I still stand by my opinion that the date should be July 1. July 15 at the latest.

I have redrafted my letter/ speaking notes around the need to leave that office. I have taken most of the suggestions from NP5. I just keep reading it and reviewing it. Trying to get comfortable with the consequence being outlined. As written this will be a shock to both our systems. Never good timing for these things. We have a long drive planned Saturday as we are going to my cousins wedding.

I have often thought about whether this wedding will impact me somehow as it approaches. I guess we will find out. It will probably impact both of us. I find myself at church sometimes feeling emotional so this should be interesting.

deserta

20yrsin

Just my 2 cents, but it appears she has decided she's "all in" and wants to rebuild her marriage.

that being so, she is comfortable that she has no attraction to the other man and would successfully rebuff and advance he might make. That is the attitude you want from her, but the problem is that she's not thinking about you.

She's not considering how much stress it causes you to trust her daily while at work while you are in the beginning of rebuilding trust.

This, I think, is just another part of her maintaining control and not being able to see your pain or empathize.

I also feel like there is lots of evidence she is 'all in' and she would certainly state with confidence that she has no interest in the AP.

As I have noted she is working hard on herself and being a better partner, mother etc.

What is lacking is the empathy and understanding of what it was like to be in my shoes. Also being able to talk about the affair honestly and acknowledge that she knew there was to be 'no contact' but failed in this and kept it a secret. That hasn't really been explained adequately and that is concerning given the history.

m1965

What if you give her until 1 August to be out of that company and city, and if she isn't out and does not resign, you solve the problem by contacting HR with details of the affair, and your wife and the OM are then out of the office whether they like it or not?

Setting the deadline is key. This is something that will take some strength and I am working up to it. Whether in the form of a letter or speaking to it. I will be bringing up two key points.

One that the POS is a cancer and needs to be out of our lives. Two I should not have accepted them working together for this long and that needs to stop by end of July.

Still working out how to say this and how harsh the message will be.

stevesn

"If she won't leave voluntarily, she has made her choice, so forcing her out is a bit pointless"

20yrsin has already done most of the heavy lifting in this R. Doing what m1965 suggests would just be another example of that.

And I still stand by my opinion that the date should be July 1. July 15 at the latest.

This is the mentality I am struggling with but working towards. How to stop doing the heavy lifting.

I am trying to imagine her reaction to an actual consequence that will have a huge impact on her. I really don't know what she will say. But I suppose it will be telling.

Considering she panicked over me me not responding for 20 minutes to a text where she admitted keeping information from me this might feel like a 2*4 blow.

Here is a reaction I did not share earlier. It was after I gave her a letter a few months ago (actually almost 4!). Wow time flies. In the letter I outlined my concerns about how we were progressing. The key point of the letter was we can't sweep the affair under the carpet.

I pointed out the key success factors for reconciliation were

- no contact

- transparency of communication, whereabouts etc

- no secrets remain between WW and AP

I said the highest priority was to not continue working on same floor as the AP. That I needed full disclosure of details of the affair.

Then I asked some questions.

Why are you making me part of the secret? I suggested disclosure would help. I asked about consequences. What were they? I didn't see any. I asked why she was ok with the character traits she had demonstrated, why she didn't see the need to get counselling after being so selfish and narcissistic.

Her immediate reaction to the letter was she saw no value in telling anyone. They would hate her and it would ruin everything. She would prefer to seperate then tell.

Afterwards she said that was just a defensive reaction and didn't mean it. She also said she was active in her job search and was looking at postings and would leave as soon as possible. This was difficult having just taken the position few months earlier. There was a lot of crying after this. The children saw her crying and have never forgot it. They still ask about it here and there.

We have never done anything about this letter until now. The no contact was ignored until we sent the email. The counselling was ignored until now. Booked for 2 weeks from now.

Its coming to a head here finally I guess. I just need to build up the courage to outline a true consequence. A long overdue consequence.

Yes 20yrsin

You sent that letter months ago and the work hasn't gotten done. That's why to me it's so important to take a stronger stance this time around so she can see the repercussions of Her A on you and the family.

And I'm probably in the minority here but I see her giving lip service to being ALL IN but not actually doing the work to being ALL IN.

Below are the types of things a couple successful at R should be doing or have done. How many can you say you guys have done or talked about doing? To me you confronting her about these things will be only the first step in a long journey to R.

A remorseful wife will actually feel her own pain and the pain of the BS as well. I don't see that in your descriptions of her at all. One poster said the work to R has to be 80% done by the WS. Not sure if that's true but you are not even getting 20% as far as I can tell.

I'm glad you are really starting to think this thru. You are in a place no one ever hopes to be. I think this whole forum is looking out to get you and your kids back to happiness some day. Hopefully that happiness includes your wife as a big part of it.

Here is that list:

1) a letter of NC to the OM that you see and approve and watch her send.

2) real NC. Meaning she quits her job so she can never see him or run into him again. Real ghosting. Blocking him from everything. If He tries to contact her she does not respond and she tells you. If he persists your lawyer can send him a cease and desist.

3) she writes out a full timeline of the A. Full details. And you review it with her.

4) she writes you a letter of apology telling you why she thinks she did what she did and what it would mean to her to have you stay and work on the marriage.

5) she agree to a polygraph. You may or may not have her do it, but don't tell her that. If she really wants R she will agree

6) you both do IC. Her to figure out why she was willing to go beyond her vows. You so you can work thru the pain. You should do this whether you head for D or R.

7) at a later point you might start MC to work on what was missing from the M. But only after you both work on yourselves first.

8) Expose. The affair needs to be exposed to both your families and close friends. They need to be able to help you make it thru this R. Doing it alone with just the both of u and no one else knowing is doomed for failure. If she is truly remorseful you will both go to them together and she will admit what's she has done and what she is doing to make herself a safe partner for you. If she is not willing to do this, then probably just end it here and move forward with D.

9) contact the OBS. You do it. She should help you. If she is truly remorseful she will want to do that for you. You should want to do it because it's the right thing to do for the OBS. If she won't tell her then tell her I can only assume you are protecting him because you are still in the A with him and you'll be getting the D papers this week.

10) look at implementing a postnup. Others here can give you more details on how this works.

11) she provides open access to all her technology from now on. On demand. No time to delete stuff. If not then she's obviously more interested in having secrets than your M.

12) No more going out without disclosing where she is. If "going out with the girls has been an excuse to meet with AP in the past, then that ends

13) Does all required reading. "Not just friends" and "how to help your spouse..." etc.

14) find a friend or family member for you to confide in. You shouldn't be going thru this alone.

15) STD testing for u both. Visual proof of the results is required.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:45 AM, June 23rd (Friday)]

Hi 20yrsin,

Your mention of one word really rang a bell with me in relation to what you're going through: "narcissist".

Google "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" and you will find a checklist of the problems you have faced.

Seriously, I was stunned by how many of the things you have described are on page after page after page.

Hopefully you will find a lot of stuff to build your insight into what is going on in your wife's head, and why she does the things she does, and why it is so hard getting her to do anything that you need.

There are many people here who give advice for many reason. NP5 gives advice even though this place burns his soul. You need to listen to him word for word.

I don't see a ww that's all in to save her marriage. I see her stalling you hoping you'll eventually give up and sweep it under the rug. Unless there's a drastic change I don't think she's a good candidate for R.

Want to see if she's all in? Sunday night ask her if she's all in to save the marriage, and if she says yes tell her that she's not stepping foot in that work place again. She's to call her boss in your presence Monday morning and let him know that she's resigning effective immediately and ask him to pack her belongings and leave them at the front desk for her husband to pick up. And if her boss asks her why, which he will, she's to tell him she cheated with someone else that works there and this is one thing she has to do to try to save her marriage.

Don't be too invested in this though, she's going to refuse. She's given ample evidence that her marriage is not her top priority, her pride and job comes first. She's not going to humble herself. And when she doesn't, you need to immediately file.

I think you really need to harden up. I could be wrong about her, she may really be all in, but you won't know if you don't get tough. In my experience men who go balls to the wall to get out of infidelity tend to have more success saving their marriages than men who give their wives time. You're in a fight to save your marriage, and your wife is your opponent. What do successful fighters do, throw a punch then wait to see how their opponent reacts? No, punches in bunches. You need to make sure that she knows, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that she's a hair away from losing you and she has to take extreme measures if she's going to save your relationship.

I have been doing a load of reading online, and it seems very clear that Mrs 20yrs has NPD (Narcissitic Personality Disorder). I have never been with a woman with NPD, but I found some good links that may help anyone, including our brother 20yrs, who do find themselves being buffeted by a female narcissist.

Here's a good page about surviving a female narcissist:

http://www.femalenarcissist.com/

And some more pages that might be useful:

https://pairedlife.com/problems/Toxic-Relationships-Surviving-a-Narcissit

http://www.professional-counselling.com/how-to-deal-with-a-narcissistic-partner.html

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/relationships-with-borderline-narcissistic-personality-women/

https://www.psychalive.org/narcissistic-relationships/

http://www.livestrong.com/article/72413-characteristics-narcissistic-women/#page=1

in order to reconcile you need to

- end the affair

- have the full truth

- have a remorseful spouse

- have some way to hold her accountable and allow her tobrebuild trust.

shes still working with him and as of a page or two ago still communicating with him. exchanging hellos, chit chat, etc is breaking nc. i knew my ww finally understood nc when she saw one of her guys on the sidewalk a hal block away and literally turned and ran.

most ws are almost like those cold war spy novels where they have prepared stories they use as cover stories. as they are interogated in the novels they eventually 'break' as their story is exposed and move to cover story 2. then 3. and so on. each a different set of lies mixed with a little more truth. then it all comes out. i dont feel shes divulged that last bit yet. or is honestly oast cover story x. i think there is more. in your case sex and maybe frequency. maybe om2. but i feel strongly there is more. all cheaters play that card and its meaningless.

remorse is her feeling your pain and trying to help both of you. you to heal. her to be a safe partner. other than tears and "boo hoo poor me, im a jerk" what has she really done?

Hi 20yrsin,

How are things going? Are you okay?

Not sure if you are still reading here, but whatever the case is, we all wish you the best.

No advice, just sharing since it feels familiar.

I wish I would have been stronger when I caught my WW breaking no contact and tried to play it off and come clean after the fact. I should have walked away right then and there despite everything. The first time or the second time, when it was still early in the reconciliation.

I should never have agreed to keep her secrets to avoid shaming her. She knew that was possible when she made her choices. I helped her to never fully face up to the consequences of her actions.

Because I caved, I believe she fully thought (and may still think) that I'd take her back again this time.

Hey M1965, thanks for checking in. I am drafting an update and will try and post this eve. Had my third confrontation if you will on Monday after returning from a wedding on the weekend. Took the letter approach and while some progress was made didn't achieve a hard deadline on work exit.

Good guys finish last thanks for posting. I know based on your feedback and others there is a risk here in my situation. I started out with a strong message but in the end softened my stance. Progress in some areas but not with a hard consequence on the work situation that I originally intended and was advised on.

I'll provide further colour to the story but that is the main outcome.

Hi 20yrs,

I'm glad you're okay, and making some progress. I think it's a shame there was no date set for leaving that office, because the situation has been causing you stress, but I know that you are facing an uphill struggle to get your wife to do any of the things that a remorseful spouse ought to do.

Obviously, you are well within your rights to insist on a definite deadline at anytime, and the wheel is still in spin, so things can change. Ultimately, the goal is to achieve a situation that YOU are comfortable with, and you can pick and choose from the suggestions here to craft a solution that is right for you.

Sending you strength and best wishes, 20yrs.

20yrsin:

At this point, you are reaping exactly what you have sown in your unwillingness to enforce boundaries: an unrepentant WW.

Fear is the only thing preventing you from moving forward at this point. When you truly stop fearing losing the marriage, have truly grown sick and tired of being sick and tired, and embrace that none of us can make our own future certain, you will find the strength you need.

Until then, it will be more of the same.

No word from 20yrsin for a week.

NP5 is exactly correct. Lots of planning and no execution.

I fear in a few months this will be one of those, "I should have listened to you before" cases.

twisted, that is definitely a risk.

twisted

NP5 is exactly correct. Lots of planning and no execution.

I fear in a few months this will be one of those, "I should have listened to you before" cases.

I can see the current threads with this message and in a few of the threads that i was recommended to read.

Will provide more detailed update for context. I doubt it will be found satisfying.

I may yet choose to apply the hard consequence. It was written in my letter but subsequently talked out of it.

Update

Once again thanks for all of the input. Hey I'm Canadian some of us are overly polite I guess.

Regarding narcissism I have read, and agree with this myself, that the act of cheating is a form of narcissism. Cheating is a selfish, self centred act that can very likely only be performed by someone who is not exhibiting empathy for their spouse. These traits map well to those of a narcissist. There may have been other very moderate signs of this when looking at the interactions between me and my spouse pre affair including co-dependency. I think I do hesitate in saying something that would be disagreeable. When this did happen I realize now I often faced an over reaction and withdrawal. We both have come a long way in these areas but still plenty of work to do.

The work being done by my wife to develop herself as a better person is really noticeable and admirable. She has much more self awareness and presence with myself and the family. While this is encouraging there are these issues which have been discussed in this thread over the last few weeks. Clearly there was a lack of understanding of the scope and importance of 'no contact'. Lying and omitting information about no contact and not getting a new job are issues we need to work through.

After attending the wedding which really was a celebration of 2 families that embraced each other and individually showed a lot of love we returned home. We were probably a bit awestruck considering our own situation. I know weddings can often be overblown but there really was a genuine feel at this event and my uncle and aunt are very warm people. We know they had a serious issue in their past as well and they overcame it and have been lovely and loving people in my memory (not infidelity).

At the same time, through the weekend, I was preparing for a third confrontation. It finally happened Monday. I ended up leaving a letter for my wife as she had the day off and I had to go into the office. I texted her that it was folded up in our copy of 'not just friends' which is the book we need to read. We are reading it now.

In this letter I laid out my requirements around the job search. I indicated that something needed to happen by end of July. I also talked about the toxicity of the AP and why physically being away from him was important.

She told me honestly she could not quit her job. She understands the issue with contact and said she would redouble her efforts to make a lateral move. She gets the urgency and will take any opportunity to exit that office, not limiting to 'career' moves only.

When I came home I was ready to separate. She knew it too and was very concerned. She promised to do all the things I asked. She said she was doing many of them already, having booked the counselling and agreeing to read the book. She downloaded it and has now read first two chapters. She said no matter how awkward it looked to others she will not even acknowledge the AP and she will report any time she sees him. He is currently out of office.

She said she wants to be honest about everything even things she fears will upset me. This was her reason for earlier omission/ lying. She says she is so sure about us, that her focus is unwavering. Even if I did separate, which she agrees she deserves, she will keep working to bring us back together.

Her insistence with the job is that she does not have the same level of education as her peers and has overachieved. She fears she would never land an equivalent job with her resume/education. She is willing to expand the search outside of her current organization but will not quit without another job lined up. Financially for the family and for herself she cannot be out of work.

The sincerity of this conversation was believable to me. If there are lies then we are truly done. It is hard to fathom but I acknowledge it is possible. My gut says this is genuine. If she was acting, its academy award material. And if these are lies then she has so many issues it won't be worth me trying to continue.

At this time we will read through the book, get the counselling and keep trying to improve ourselves. I don't know how long I can wait for a job change but based on her track record if she is applying consistently she will get a move.

I happened to read the 10 year thread in reconciliation and it gave me hope. I read a lot of threads before registering and posting and I know this requires work and that there are many pitfalls. Certainly to be successful it will require more courage on my part. I progressed some, thanks to feedback here, in bringing things up and getting her to acknowledge we can't sweep under the carpet. I will continue to work at this becoming more comfortable asking for what I need. I know I have a long way to go, especially relative to some of the advice given.

I thank all contributors for their thoughts and advice. It's massively helpful for me to hear all viewpoints. I hope to pay it forward as I have said previously. I am not sure I am qualified other than to be supportive of others at this time but maybe that is an ok starting point.

20yrsin

Thanks for the update. I feel for you. I really do.

In the end, only you can decide what's right for you and your relationship.

I really have no more advice than what I and others have already put in this thread. Please go back and read it fully from time to time. There's some great advice from everyone in there.

My gut says you're headed for a 2nd DDay because I believe a truly remorseful WW could not bear to spend another second with the AP. Ever. And the fact that she only now will look for lateral moves is saddening to me. Why was that not a priority in the last 8 months. My thought is she just bought herself more time with lover boy.

However, it's YOUR gut that matters, not mine. And you need to do what you feel, at this very moment, that is right for you.

I will tell you that you've come a long way. And for that I commend you.

My fear for you is that you will remain in this state of limbo for years, not ever being able to find your way out of infidelity. But as you said, only you can figure out how long you can wait to have him out of your lives forever. I wonder how long that timeframe is.

I could never be as patient as you.

Take care of yourself.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 2:23 PM, June 30th (Friday)]

Oh and she also should be reading on her own "How to help your spouse heal from your affair".

She'll never quit her job. I told you this months ago. Wait even one more day at your own peril.

She will not look for jobs outside this company, though she'll put on an Emmy-winning performance that she is.

Unfortunately this is just your standard-issue affair.

Your letter achieved nothing because she called your bluff